Why don't some Protestants like the cross?

[hosemonkey]

Really? Prove it. Where does it say, "take up your ‘non physical’ cross? Come to that, I only noted Christ said, "take up your cross’. YOU are the one assuming I ‘only’ meant 'physical. And I said nothing about ignoring the light, either.

Wow. So because two people you ‘tell’ us are sinners wore crosses, it’s the CROSSES which are bad?

And you have the God-like judgment to proclaim all crosses are worn for ‘commercial gain’ and ‘false representation?’ By whose authority do YOU speak for ALL? :tsktsk:

And just where does it say a cross cannot be physical AS WELL as spiritial? Where does it say that, “Lo, let your light shine–and you can have lamps, nite-lites, flashlights, pictures of lights, T shirts with pictures of lights etc., songs about 'letting your light shine” --but don’t even THINK of wearing a cross, putting a cross in your church, and ESPECIALLY not one with a representation of MY BODY on it! to remind you of me. THAT’s a big no-no."

You see, it’s that kind of twisted pseudo-logic, PRESUMPTION, and general judgmental behavior on the part of others, specifically in this case a non-Catholic pronouncing that because HE THINKS those who wear crosses are doing it ‘for financial gain and false representation’ then THAT’S THE TRUTH . .no matter what the Catholic who is actually WEARING the cross is REALLY doing. . .that pretty much stops any real communication in its tracks. How sad.

Good post! IMO, the crucifix is just tooooooo Catholic for many uninformed protestants. Scares 'em.

 

[Protestant101]

Sorry, Protestant101, but your post made zero sense. There are perhaps hundreds of Catholics on this board who would very much disagree with your revelation of “Jesus didn’t mean physical cross” interpretation. These people deal daily with physical ills of all kinds–cancer, infertility, diabetes, arthritis, difficult pregnancies, depression–and those amazing people count their maladies as crosses to bear with Jesus on His Way to Calvary. Perhaps you may want to widen your understanding of just how “physical” some people’s crosses are.

Oh, and the thing about the priest (which was a low blow, IMO). . . a very recent case, that of the Protestant Pastor Winkler whose wife shot him to end sexual perversion, abuse and molestation of his daughters. . . sickos come from EVERY walk of life and EVERY religious persuasion. And some of these sickos even preach.

I think you probably know that I did not mean by “physical cross” some of the things you spoke of. My last post did explain what i was talking of. But you are coorect; when we “carry our cross” it can be physical in the sense that we may be confronting disease, tragedy or death. That is a good point you make.

 

[Protestant101]

Really? Prove it. Where does it say, "take up your ‘non physical’ cross? Come to that, I only noted Christ said, "take up your cross’. YOU are the one assuming I ‘only’ meant 'physical. And I said nothing about ignoring the light, either.

Wow. So because two people you ‘tell’ us are sinners wore crosses, it’s the CROSSES which are bad?

And you have the God-like judgment to proclaim all crosses are worn for ‘commercial gain’ and ‘false representation?’ By whose authority do YOU speak for ALL? :tsktsk:

And just where does it say a cross cannot be physical AS WELL as spiritial? Where does it say that, “Lo, let your light shine–and you can have lamps, nite-lites, flashlights, pictures of lights, T shirts with pictures of lights etc., songs about 'letting your light shine” --but don’t even THINK of wearing a cross, putting a cross in your church, and ESPECIALLY not one with a representation of MY BODY on it! to remind you of me. THAT’s a big no-no."

You see, it’s that kind of twisted pseudo-logic, PRESUMPTION, and general judgmental behavior on the part of others, specifically in this case a non-Catholic pronouncing that because HE THINKS those who wear crosses are doing it ‘for financial gain and false representation’ then THAT’S THE TRUTH . .no matter what the Catholic who is actually WEARING the cross is REALLY doing. . .that pretty much stops any real communication in its tracks. How sad.

LOL; I liked the way you waved your [virtual] cyber-finger at me. That was kind of funny. My “pseudo-logic” did not mean to say that Protestants are somehow frightened off by the cross. And, there are lots of people who wear a cross for good reasons too. I just think that both sides of this issue make some pretty far-fetched points. I am curious to find out from you; what does it mean to you when you read the scripture that says:

“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,?”

I likely should have also said above that at times, our various, and differing “disciplines” can still be a good witness for Christ to one another. I have been researching the terrible tragedy of 9-11 and during this research; I am viewing a number of videos/movies about same. In one video which had real footage of some of the events; a Catholic Nun was, with all the others, fleeing from the scene. She was making the sign of the cross on her chest, as Catholics do, and I remembered thinking what a marvellous example of reaching out to God during a time of trial that was.

My comments about using the cross for financial gain was referring not to Catholics as much as jewellery which is marketed as “Christian;” and the comment of using it to put on a false front and to deceive the public about your true character, is actually directed at Catholics and Protestants. The cross is made out to be so many things that it in fact NOT.

Therefore, I would like to explore the text from Galations which I have just quoted with any forum members who would be interested. I do not believe that the above 9-11 incident I cited above is what the text is talking about at all.

 

[THutch04]

So many people in general don’t like to see the image of Jesus crucified. Even in several Catholic churches now I’ve seen a “risen Christ” crucifix. People don’t want to focus on the suffering, they want to focus on the resurrection. I certainly count myself among those who like to remember Christ as the victor. However, it’s just as important to remember that without the cross there would have been no resurrection.

 

[water]

The outward adorning of a cross and it’s use for commercial gain or to falsify your image to the public is what Protestants protest; not “the cross of Jesus Christ.”

Is that so? Most of what I heard from Protestants is that they couldn’t dare thinking about His death…or Jesus is already risen, why He is still on the Cross. Little do they know the meaning of why Catholics have the Crucifix.

 

[inJESUS]

Not that i know much of protestantism, but i’d expect to read such arguments in gnostic literature that teaches Jesus did not suffer, not protestants.

 

[Protestant101]

Is that so? Most of what I heard from Protestants is that they couldn’t dare thinking about His death…or Jesus is already risen, why He is still on the Cross. Little do they know the meaning of why Catholics have the Crucifix.

OK; so if you want to say “most protestants,” that’s fine; but what about this protestant? I am asking some specific questions here re Gal.6:14; is anyone willing or able to reply?

Please see my post #43 in this topic, and lets discuss what the Bible says.

 

[Deconi]

I am asking some specific questions here re Gal.6:14; is anyone willing or able to reply?

Please see my post #43 in this topic, and lets discuss what the Bible says.

What specifically is it that you ask about the above quotation? I might give it a shot

 

[Zooey]

My former pastor told a story about sitting in our church talking with a Protestant minister friend. The minister asked if they could talk elsewhere, away from the large crucifix, because “I’m just not comfortable with Him up there.” Father, bless him, responded “Well, we’re not supposed to be comfortable, are we?”

[SIGN1]Wow!!!:clapping: :clapping: Pass that priest a Gold Medal!! [/SIGN1]

1 Cor 1:23 - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

I Cor 2:2 - For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Gal 3:1 - O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you?

An empty cross is simply a torture device. Countless people were crucified during that time in history. The cross with my Saviour on it means something else entirely:

1 Peter 2:21-24 - For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

23Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not: but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
24Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed.

I have gotten into the habit of using a crucifix during Lent. We are always living in the tension of the Triduum. It’s a both/and, not an either/or.

O+

That is a very good idea…
We have a little mini-Passion Play every year. We have a man carrying a cross in it…Believe me, that cross is very meaningful to everyone!!

 

[Cat]

One of the things we have to remember is that in the days when Paul and the other apostles wrote their letters (and also the Gospel writers wrote their Gospels), crucifixion was a real and common form of execution. I understand that the crosses were left up, with the victims hanging, for all to see.

So when they wrote about the cross, they wrote about something that they knew would cause the death of many followers of Christ.

Nowadays, most of us don’t expect to be executed, so when we read the verses, we think in terms of sickness, suffering, etc. As far as I know, that’s valid interpretation, but let’s never forget the literal interpretation–they really WERE talking about taking up real crosses and dying on them.

 

[mercygate]

I think you probably know that I did not mean by “physical cross” some of the things you spoke of. My last post did explain what i was talking of. But you are coorect; when we “carry our cross” it can be physical in the sense that we may be confronting disease, tragedy or death. That is a good point you make.

Glad that’s cleared up. Thanks.

Also, I would add that “taking up our cross” includes attending to the tasks and burdens of our condition of life and tending to those around us in need.

The cross has many shapes. Each one custom tailored for the one who must carry it. In Moslem countries under sharia, displaying a cross in public is forbidden. In the West, we do well to wear crosses or crucifixes publicly as a sign that our faith is alive and well. We must not become easy pickings for those who in a rage of political correctness find it offensive.

Sidebar: I do not recall ever seeing a crucifix surmounting a Catholic Church. Crosses: yes. Crucifixes: no.

 

[mercygate]

One of the things we have to remember is that in the days when Paul and the other apostles wrote their letters (and also the Gospel writers wrote their Gospels), crucifixion was a real and common form of execution. I understand that the crosses were left up, with the victims hanging, for all to see.

So when they wrote about the cross, they wrote about something that they knew would cause the death of many followers of Christ.

Nowadays, most of us don’t expect to be executed, so when we read the verses, we think in terms of sickness, suffering, etc. As far as I know, that’s valid interpretation, but let’s never forget the literal interpretation–they really WERE talking about taking up real crosses and dying on them.

Just a point of history. The Cross does not appear widely in Christian art until the mid-fourth century. One of the last things Constantine did as Emperor was to abolish crucifixion as a form of capital punishment – in honor of Our Lord.

To my thinking he cross/crucifix could become useful as a sign only after it ceased to be a common form. Using the electric chair analogy, if everybody is being executed in the electric chair, then the chair can’t be the symbol of any single person’s death. With the passing of enough time, the cross was remembered primarily in association with Jesus because the Church carried that memory out in time. When it becomes associated in the common memory almost exclusively with Jesus, then it can be a universal sign of His Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

 

[AngelRose81]

Recently I caught part of a broadcast on TBN where Demond Wilson (remember Lamont on Sanford & Son? He’s born again and preaching now) was talking about how when Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” came out, he was happy that it put some focus on Jesus in the secular press but he was annoyed that it focused on the crucifixion instead of the resurrection.

And while, yeah, without the resurrection we’ve got nothing to put our faith in…why is it that some Protestants seem to belittle the cross or want to ignore it altogether?

I’ve heard this same thing from the Protestants that I work with. They claimed that there was no promise of salvation?!?!?! I didn’t get that. I mean salvation comes from His death & resurrection, which were BOTH shown in the movie.

 

[Publisher]

I don’t know that Friends “don’t like the cross”, but most of our Meetings do not focus on images or ritual…so icons, pictures, statues, stained glass, candles or coss/crucifix’s are not part of our Meeting House “decor”.

Many Friends do wear crosses…but in our Meeting Houses we have benches or chairs, a Clerk’s Table, perhaps a vase of flowers and maybe a bulletin board…and that’s it. If there is a picture on the wall it may be a simple nature scene or in some Meetings the “Presence in the Midst” depticting Quaker worship at Jordan’s Meeting House by Doyle Penrose.

 

[mlchance]

In addition to these:
Pixie Dust:

1 Cor 1:23 - But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
I Cor 2:2 - For I judged not myself to know anything among you, but Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Gal 3:1 - O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you?

Let us also not forget that in at least one post-Resurrection appearance, Christ still bore the scars of his death. There is also this vision of Christ in Heaven from Rev 5:1-6 (emphasis added):[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JRKH]

OK; so if you want to say “most protestants,” that’s fine; but what about this protestant? I am asking some specific questions here re Gal.6:14; is anyone willing or able to reply?

Please see my post #43 in this topic, and lets discuss what the Bible says.

Why are you trying to look at a single vers out of context?

I checked my Bible (NAB) and it has a clarification for verses 11-18 as follows.
"Paul asserts that the Judaizers with the Gentile Christians to observe th laws of Judaism only in order that they themselves may escape persecution by the Jews. He observes that he already bears the scars of such persecution, but this has not prevented him from reafirming the true doctrine in the present epistle."

What he is declaring is that no bodily observance is needed. What is important is the daily living of the faith and bearing the persecution (cross) that are a part of that.witness.

James

 

[Protestant101]

Why are you trying to look at a single vers out of context?

I checked my Bible (NAB) and it has a clarification for verses 11-18 as follows.
"Paul asserts that the Judaizers with the Gentile Christians to observe th laws of Judaism only in order that they themselves may escape persecution by the Jews. He observes that he already bears the scars of such persecution, but this has not prevented him from reafirming the true doctrine in the present epistle."

What he is declaring is that no bodily observance is needed. What is important is the daily living of the faith and bearing the persecution (cross) that are a part of that.witness.

James

I am sorry; but I am not taking Gal.6:14 out of context; for I have been asking interested forum members to tell me what they think it means. Although I said that I did not see “the cross” as cited in the 9-11 tragedy of my post #43 as applying to Gal.6:14; I have not yet said what I thought this text means. Besides; it is not “wrong” to explain what one text means; whether by itself or grouped with others; just as YOU have done in this post.

I am genuinely interested to hear forum member’s share their interpretations of this text in Gal.6; and yes; feel free to use other related texts in association with Gal.6:14, if it helps you to explain it better. My only aim is to see what people think of it.

 

[jmcrae]

The Devil hates the Crucifix because it puts him in mind of his ultimate defeat.

That’s why having a crucifix helps to get rid of the Devil.

And why I am always suspicious of the motives of those who want to get rid of it.

 

[Publisher]

I’m not too sure that the “devil” pays any attention to our symbols and images we use to remind ourselves…if the “devil” is troubled at all, I would think it would be over the “empty tomb”…the “devil” is outside of time so the significance of the cross and empty tomb is ever before him…our pices of wood and plaster we venerate really have no impact on the “devil.”

 

[JRKH]

I am sorry; but I am not taking Gal.6:14 out of context;…

Pardon me but your post #43 quotes the verse as:

“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,?”

Since this is only half of the verse, I’d say you are not only looking at the verse out of it’s textural element but you’re looking at part of a verse and then asking for opinions.

Truly I don’t mean any disrespect, but these letters were not written verse by verse. They were written as a whole and should be read as such. If one wants to know what a word means in the verse, or what a verse means, look at the text around it first. You’ll usually find the answer without much trouble.

…Besides; it is not “wrong” to explain what one text means; whether by itself or grouped with others; just as YOU have done in this post.

I agree, and I never said it was “wrong” to look at a single verse. I only asked why you were looking at it and trying to understand it by itself; without the help of the surrounding text.

While the chapter and verse system is a nice aid to Bible study, I have seen and heard too much cherry picking of Bible verses…
I guess I am a bit touchy about this type of thing.
If I offended, Please accept my apology.

Blessings
James