Why don't some Protestants like the cross?

[hosemonkey]

I did not go see that movie–I avoid R movies but too many times I have seen or heard people enthusiastically reliving the crucifiction. Empassioned talks, in this case a movie, so called “inspirational” talks. I could never understand it. It still creeps me out.

What really annoys me about all this, besides its creepiness, is that His suffering in Gethsemane is rarely touched upon or explained. The thing about the atonement, the Mediator between God and Man. The tie back into the Garden of Eden to the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge. Everything reduced to a mindless gorefest (in the case of the movie).

Did you actually view the film? If you did not, you have no idea as to what it portrays. If you did view the film, you missed the whole point.

 

[rmcmullan]

The “passion” contains a very poignant portrayal of the agony in the garden. Mindless gorefest??? You should see a film before you pronounce judgment on it. Your “mindless” obedience to the LDS restriction on “R” rated movies has robbed you of a priceless experience.

The LDS prohibition on “R” rated films is intended to keep you apart from unwholesome influences, not to keep you from understanding the suffering Christ endured for your sake.

This is hardly the first story of Jesus movie ever made but it is at least one of the first or most prominent with an R rating for graphic violence. That seems so wrong. True I say this without having seen it but believe me, I’ve seen lots of others and they seemed quite capable of teaching Jesus’ sufferings without all the graphic violence. So what purpose does it serve?

The point I made previously was that although the suffereing is being emphasized, there’s lot more going on that is not mentioned. True, it’s harder to graphically portray the redemption of mankind than 40 lashes, but it’s the redemption wrought on the cross that’s important and not taught.

If you’ve seen it (and it sounds like you have), does the movie make any dramatic interpretation of the following:

Matt27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[rob179ny]

I personally believe that the devil hates seeing the crucifix more then seeing an empty cross. An empty cross can mean anything from his perspective. It can be used as a plus sign for a mathematical equation, or maybe even the letter t, which kind of takes away the effect of our Lord’s victory over the Devil through the perfect sacrifice in redeeming us of our sins. The crucifix is sacred, it is God on the cross. The devil see’s our Lord on the cross there is no mistaken what it means. For me though, In seeing our Lord’s body hanging on the cross which helps me to approach confession more often. He went threw all that he did to free us from our sins and give us the opportunity to enter into heaven to be with our heavenly Father. Yet we continue to sin, so we need to see our Lord Jesus up on the cross to remind us that we are weak without God’s graces, and threw his wounds our Father now can find favor in us. I hope Im not off the rocker a bit. If so someone please help. lol

 

[PaulDupre]

This is hardly the first story of Jesus movie ever made but it is at least one of the first or most prominent with an R rating for graphic violence. That seems so wrong. True I say this without having seen it but believe me, I’ve seen lots of others and they seemed quite capable of teaching Jesus’ sufferings without all the graphic violence. So what purpose does it serve?

The point I made previously was that although the suffereing is being emphasized, there’s lot more going on that is not mentioned. True, it’s harder to graphically portray the redemption of mankind than 40 lashes, but it’s the redemption wrought on the cross that’s important and not taught.

How do you know that if you haven’t seen the film? You’re wrong btw.

If you’ve seen it (and it sounds like you have), does the movie make any dramatic interpretation of the following:

Mt 27:50-51 Yes
Mt 27:52-53 No

There is also a very beautiful, though brief, depiction of the resurrection.

Here is a thoughtful review of the film by LDS author Orson Scott Card that you may find helpful.

Paul

 

[Singinbeauty]

Most Protestants accept the cross as a symbol, but object to the crucifix. I’ve never understood this because it was Christ’s death, not his resurrection, which freed us from the bondage of original sin. His resurrection proved He was God and that our faith in Him was not misplaced, but did not “save” us, to use their terminology.

I am surprised that more people did not have an issue with what geezerbob said. If it was His death that free’d us then everyone who gave their life for someone would free us all from sin. It is the fact that He is GOD; died and raised Himself from the grave that bridged that gap between us and God. It’s the whole package. I find it weird to focus on one and not the other…

 

[mlchance]

I am surprised that more people did not have an issue with what geezerbob said. If it was His death that free’d us then everyone who gave their life for someone would free us all from sin.

Untrue. Sin is an offense against the infinite love of God; therefore, sin is an offense of infinite magnitude that requires either infinite restitution or infinite punishment to meet the demands of justice. Neither you nor I, both of whom are finite beings (like every other creature), can meet either of these infinite demands.

The God-Man, however, can. By his death, he paid infinite restitution for our sins.

It is the fact that He is GOD; died and raised Himself from the grave that bridged that gap between us and God. It’s the whole package. I find it weird to focus on one and not the other…

Here you’re right on target. The Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ are a like a single event. No part of it is complete without the other two.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I got into this conversation late. I just want to say that I am glad that the OP very specifically said “some” and not “all” protestants.

I have to tell you, I can’t really answer for that group of protestants. I am not one of them. No, we don’t have a crucifix in our sanctuary, but we do have a cross. In fact we have several hanging from the ceiling, placed on altars in different places, painted the wall, appearing on the Christian flag (as mentioned), and worn by a fair number of the membership when they attend any activity.

One many gives out crosses made out of nails to remind others that it wasn’t some cross to look beautiful, but an instrument of torture on which Jesus gave his life for us. When we celebrate the sacraments we are reminded of the cross both in Communion and in Baptism. Certainly we recall the cross in our hymns. Ask for a selection of favorite hymns and over half of them will include references to the cross. And if there was a favorite movie in my church’s recent past it certainly would have been Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ”.

So, I suppose that there are “some” protestants who don’t like the cross. I guess I don’t like it if you mean have affection for it. But, I we certainly don’t shy away from it; we display it; we teach it; we preach it’ we remember it; and we honor what Christ did on it. And really, I can’t think of any protestants who don’t feel this way about it. The cross, more than anything else, is the central symbol of our Christians faith. In fact, we might be accused of over emphasizing it, for even though Easter and Christmas are bigger celebrations than Good Friday, during the course of an entire year, I hear and proclaim more messages, music, and symbolism with regard to the cross than the empty tomb or cradle in Bethlehem combined.

I think you’ve run into some very unique protestants if you have found some who actually don’t “like” the cross.

 

[Ceil-1]

Prayer is a lifting of the mind and heart to God. When one looks at an image of Our Lord, Risen, or otherwise, he/she automatically thinks of Jesus. For at least one second, the person is thinking about God, whether they meant to or not. This is why the devil hates them so much. When one looks at a Crucifix, he cannot mistake this man on the cross for anyone else in the universe.

Icons are aides to prayer and meditation on holy things. The Crucifix is a meditation on the sufferings of Christ. Images of the risen Christ are meditations on the Resurrection. They were invented for those who do not read. After all, words are merely symbols that make mental images.

The original Protestants hated these constant reminders of the “Old Faith”. They demonized them as “superstition” and twisted the meaning, bringing in the first Commandment as a rationalization of this banishment. From this, other rationalizations have sprung, and these are the ones you hear repeated by our n-C friends on this site.

By the way, a Holy Icon is a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality. This is because when the name of Jesus (or other heavenly creature) is invoked, or in the Icon’s case, seen, He is manifested to us (on an interior level, of course, iow, in our souls.)
Jesus is the Icon of God, get it? This is why we are now allowed
to make images of God. He has been manifested to us.

Have you ever heard the phrase, “speak of the devil, and he appears” ? Well, the same goes for Jesus and his angels and so on. This is why an image, statue, icon, etc. gives us Grace and is considered a Sacramental. I’ve got lots of them.**

 

[Cat]

Which actor is that?

Robert Patrick! (Col. Tom Ryan on The Unit, T1000 Judgement Day, etc.).

In interviews, other actors have commented on his many “necklaces” and medals. He said that he isn’t sure which is best, so he wears both a cross and a crucifix, plus several saint medals including, of course, St. Patrick!

He has talked about a desire to convert to Catholicism. He attends a Bible study at his local Harley Davidson store. Even thought his bio often lists him as “atheist,” in his interviews he talks about his interest in God and religion.

Pray for him!

 

[rmcmullan]

How do you know that if you haven’t seen the film? You’re wrong btw.

Wrong? How can you say that? That only applies to facts and not opinions or matters of taste. OSC did bring up an interesting point, about how other cultures go way more overboard than Americans. I am thinking of the people who carry their own cross (literally) and allow themselves to be beaten and crucified around Easter. People even die from time to time in these re-enactments. What do you think of that? I am going with creepy.

 

[Protestant101]

Actually if you look at my post # 56 I really think I answered your question as to my ideas. They corrospond with the footnote I sited and I couldn’t express it better.

James

Howdy James

I would be interested to hear two things from you:

1/ In the notes you quoted from Gal.6:14, NAB, what do you see “no bodily observance” as meaning. This was your interpretation of the notes.

2/ I am hearing most Catholics say things like the “cross” is marked by Jesus when He died on the cross. Has anyone thought that the “cross” may mean much more than this?

The following Scripture seems to say so:

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Protestants place the emphasis on all the aspects of the cross, for “with His stripes we are healed;” and we choose to dwell on all the points wherein Jesus suffered, and that wasn’t just on Calvary. A balanced view on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is needed for a balanced view of Calvary. All three of these are essential as a collective whole; it is not best to separate or compartmentalize them into separate “doctrines” or beliefs.

Technically, there’s not much wrong with wearing a cross around your neck, or having one in the church, but there is also nothing wrong with choosing to not do so if the interest is in balancing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus into a collective whole is at heart. Many Christians commemorate these three by the lives they lead, by the characters they have allowed God to develop in them.

It would be wrong to say that everyone must display a cross; for not everyone would understand it that way

 

[rafael_vicho]

The reason why some Protestants don’t like the cross is because for them it is A SATANIC SYMBOL. Well can you just imagine that the object of our salvation is branded as satanic by some protestants? I remember my debate with a Baptist wherein I objected that the rosary is Christ-centered because of the attached cross in it. But he also objected, stating that he know of a Satanic Bible that has a cross in front of it? Isn’t it weird?

 

[Publisher]

Evidently “satanic” is whatever “we” find objectionable and whatever “we” deem as offensive to God…“our mouth to his ears”.

 

[hosemonkey]

Wrong? How can you say that? That only applies to facts and not opinions or matters of taste. OSC did bring up an interesting point, about how other cultures go way more overboard than Americans. I am thinking of the people who carry their own cross (literally) and allow themselves to be beaten and crucified around Easter. People even die from time to time in these re-enactments. What do you think of that? I am going with creepy.

No creepier than people who dress up in wierd clothes and enact psuedomasonic rituals in a “secret” temple. Getting baptized for a dead person, now that’s creepy.

 

[JRKH]

Howdy James

I would be interested to hear two things from you:

1/ In the notes you quoted from Gal.6:14, NAB, what do you see “no bodily observance” as meaning. This was your interpretation of the notes.

My “no bodily observance” reference goes to the context of Gal6:11-18 which contains the origional quote. Paul istrying to resolve one of the earliest church crisis. That is, whether followers of Jesus need to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses or not. Obviously Paul is saying “NO”.
Those who were insisting on circumcision were making the same mistake that the Scribes and Pharasees had made, insisting on scrupulous adherance to the letter of the law while completely ignoring it’s intent. There are several passages in the Gospels where Jesus admonishes them for just this. Plus Jesus was known to break with Mosaic Law and/or custom and again admonish the Scribes and/or pharasees for not seeing what was important.
In addition, Paul was well aware that the Jewish leaders, in rejecting Jesus, cut themselves off from salvation. The salvation Jesus offered, while rooted in Mosaic Law, was so open and far reaching that it could not be contained in it.

So it is obvious to me that when Paul says,“may I never boast of anything but the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ…” he is rejoicing in the faith and salvation represented by the Cross and Resurection. He is admonishing his followers to not be sidetracked by a bunch of old and unneccesary bodily, dietary, or other customs.

Now we must remember too that in the early church there was much persecution and simple, easy to make/use/conceal symbols were needed to help the faithful. Certainly the “Cross” fits this bill much easier than some representation of the resurection. Plus it calls to mind what Jeus endured to attain salvation just as his followers were suffering. This may be part of the reason for an emphasis, representationally of the cross over the resurection.

2/ I am hearing most Catholics say things like the “cross” is marked by Jesus when He died on the cross. Has anyone thought that the “cross” may mean much more than this?

I hope I am understanding your question here. Catholics do not focus exclusively on the Cross. The representation of the crucified Jesus intails quite graphically the totallity of His suffering.

Protestants place the emphasis on all the aspects of the cross, for “with His stripes we are healed;” and we choose to dwell on all the points wherein Jesus suffered, and that wasn’t just on Calvary. A balanced view on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is needed for a balanced view of Calvary. All three of these are essential as a collective whole; it is not best to separate or compartmentalize them into separate “doctrines” or beliefs.

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly.

Technically, there’s not much wrong with wearing a cross around your neck, or having one in the church, but there is also nothing wrong with choosing to not do so if the interest is in balancing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus into a collective whole is at heart. Many Christians commemorate these three by the lives they lead, by the characters they have allowed God to develop in them.

It would be wrong to say that everyone must display a cross; for not everyone would understand it that way

I think you’ve hit it well there and it ties in beautifully with my statement above about not needing the bodily observances. It’s what we Live that is the true test.

May God continue to Bless you

James

 

[cecilia97]

Hi

I think logically Cross should not be liked by the Catholics as well. Cross is a **sign of torture **to our beloved JesusYeshuaIssa, not a symbol of rejoice. *Has anybody loved the **sword or gun ***with which one’s beloved has been miserably injured . Not a single person in the world.

Of course not…and here’s why:

Logically, there is a difference between the gun used to kill a loved one and the Cross used to kill Christ. Our loved ones are not God, and the sacrifice of their lives cannot redeem the world from sin. The Cross was the instrument of a perfect sacrifice, Our Lord Jesus Christ, which paid the sin offering for the entire world. It’s way different from a weapon used to kill a human.

 

[Protestant101]

The reason why some Protestants don’t like the cross is because for them it is A SATANIC SYMBOL. Well can you just imagine that the object of our salvation is branded as satanic by some protestants? I remember my debate with a Baptist wherein I objected that the rosary is Christ-centered because of the attached cross in it. But he also objected, stating that he know of a Satanic Bible that has a cross in front of it? Isn’t it weird?

I think you are mistaking the upside down cross that satanists use.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<why is it that some Protestants seem to belittle the cross or want to ignore it altogether?>>

If as St. Paul put it, the preaching of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, how much more would they dislike its image?

(BTW–In Slavonic, this verse begins, “The very word Cross is foolishness…”)

 

[Deconi]

All vampires are afraid of The Cross.

(I get my evidence from the movies, so it’s fact!)

 

[Delraek]

All vampires are afraid of The Cross.

(I get my evidence from the movies, so it’s fact!)

Have you seen the new TV show, “Moonlight”? I don’t think the vampires on that show are scared of crosses…