Why don't some Protestants like the cross?

[Delraek]

I think the question that needs to be asked is why do Catholics think that protestant don’t like the cross? Some of the ideas that I have read in this thread that supposedly Protestants don’t value the pain and sorrow of Christ on the cross, or embarassed by it, or just don’t like to deal with the reality of the sacrifice, and that Christ accomplished a great work for our redemption on it, that protestants don’t understand while grace is freely given that it isn’t free and was very costly to God – these views that some seem to think are found within and held be protestants are completely outside of the reality that I have experienced as a protestant for the last 51 years. I find it incredible that you find any protestant who doesn’t like the cross. I can only guess that you and I are living in totally different worlds, for the view you project on to protestants is not mine, that of my congregation, nor any other protestant I know. I’m not going to deny that you have had some of these experiences, but I can’t believe that they in any way, shape or form, come even close to representing the norm within protestantism. They ring about as true for me, as when some protestant asks, “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary?”, would ring true for you. In other words, it is a question that begins with a false premise, and therefore cannot actually be answered because doing so implies as true something that is actually false.

I agree, which is why I asked the question if maybe the OP meant to say “crucifix” instead of cross? And I think that’s what most of the Catholic posters are referring to…

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I agree, which is why I asked the question if maybe the OP meant to say “crucifix” instead of cross? And I think that’s what most of the Catholic posters are referring to…

You might be right in your suspicions. If that is what Catholic posters are referring to, it is a shame that they have chosen to do so in this thread rather than in one that actually asked about the crucifix, for protestants might be able to shed some light in answering that question if anyone was interested. But what I see going on presently is Protestant bashing for something that isn’t even true of protestants.

 

[passioncrosslov]

I have a friend whose mother is Protestant (Salvation Army) and who detests the Crucifix. Ruth told me that it isn’t right to watch Jesus on the Cross, it is too heartbreaking as he is our brother and died for us, so she does not like Crucifixes. She said that she can’t understand why us Catholics would look at Jesus in pain on the Cross and that it is just too much to bear.

Mind you this lady also has guides, believes in tarot cards, crystals, mediums etc… and all new age stuff, but she loves JESUS CHRIST she said and knows he died for OUR sins.

She believes in God, Jesus Christ and the Bible amongst her other beliefs… Each to their own i suppose…

That reminds me a passage in the Gospel where Christ told the apostles that “the Son of Man must suffer and died”, Peter tries to stop him, and Christ rebukes him… (can’t remember the verse, someone help!). The crucifix reminds us of a deeper love of Christ. Did not the Bible say, “The greatest love is laying down one’s life for another”, a martyred love, sacrificial love. I believe the greater joy is what takes place deep in our hearts, not just mearly an emotional kind of joy.

 

[Protestant101]

That reminds me a passage in the Gospel where Christ told the apostles that “the Son of Man must suffer and died”, Peter tries to stop him, and Christ rebukes him… (can’t remember the verse, someone help!). The crucifix reminds us of a deeper love of Christ. Did not the Bible say, “The greatest love is laying down one’s life for another”, a martyred love, sacrificial love. I believe the greater joy is what takes place deep in our hearts, not just mearly an emotional kind of joy.

Here is the text you were asking about (MKJV)

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took Him and began to rebuke Him, saying, God be gracious to You, Lord! This shall never be to You.

Over the last few years I have developed many pages of notes and questions about the “cross.” This has long been a favorite subject of interest to me.

If I were to sum it all up, I would say how the cross of Jesus Christ is the center of all time, the meeting place of this life and the next. Today; the “cross” is not just jewellry or some sort of religious adornment. The cross is also a Person because a Person hung on that cross to die for us.

If our eyes were fixed on Jesus, as He died on Calvary; we would see the perfect Son of God giving life to you and to me!

The cross speaks of the immense worth of each human soul.

And apparently, you are all worth EVERYTHING to Jesus!!

“sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non perea”

BTW; I made the logo attached to this post. Please pass it on.

 

[Deconi]

You might be right in your suspicions. If that is what Catholic posters are referring to, it is a shame that they have chosen to do so in this thread rather than in one that actually asked about the crucifix, for protestants might be able to shed some light in answering that question if anyone was interested. But what I see going on presently is Protestant bashing for something that isn’t even true of protestants.

Dunno about the ‘bashing’ bit, but there is no distinction between the cross or crucifix in Catholicism. They signify the same thing! Christian / Catholic.

The ‘theological’ definitions and differentiations mean little to ‘all’ who understand what it stands for in its entirety!

I venture to say that probably in my lifetime, God willing, every Christian will also ‘adopt’ the making of the sign of the cross during prayers.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

there is no distinction between the cross or crucifix in Catholicism. They signify the same thing! Christian / Catholic.

The ‘theological’ definitions and differentiations mean little to ‘all’ who understand what it stands for in its entirety!

So, would it be fair to say that since protestants do in fact regularly use the cross as one of their prominent symbols of the faith, and that since, as you say, within Catholicsim there is no distinction between cross or crucifix, that it is therefore untrue to suggest that protestants have some desire to disassociate themselves from the cross just because they don’t hang crucifixes in their sanctuarys?

 

[St_Violet]

Some Protestants feel that the cross is too catholic

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Some Protestants feel that the cross is too catholic

Name one.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

I think the question that needs to be asked is why do Catholics think that protestant don’t like the cross? Some of the ideas that I have read in this thread that supposedly Protestants don’t value the pain and sorrow of Christ on the cross, or embarassed by it, or just don’t like to deal with the reality of the sacrifice, and that Christ accomplished a great work for our redemption on it, that protestants don’t understand while grace is freely given that it isn’t free and was very costly to God – these views that some seem to think are found within and held be protestants are completely outside of the reality that I have experienced as a protestant for the last 51 years. I find it incredible that you find any protestant who doesn’t like the cross. I can only guess that you and I are living in totally different worlds, for the view you project on to protestants is not mine, that of my congregation, nor any other protestant I know. I’m not going to deny that you have had some of these experiences, but I can’t believe that they in any way, shape or form, come even close to representing the norm within protestantism. They ring about as true for me, as when some protestant asks, “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary?”, would ring true for you. In other words, it is a question that begins with a false premise, and therefore cannot actually be answered because doing so implies as true something that is actually false.

Your reply is a role model to all of us for how to discuss on a discussion board – with politeness, gentleness, directness (is that even a word?! tee hee!), and gracefulness…

Thanks for your reply. I’d like to reply on just this one, polite, point that you share with us, which is:

***I find it incredible that you find any protestant who doesn’t like the cross. ***

All I can share to help clear things up is that, yes, as a Catholic I have met and spoke with non-Catholic Christians (Protestant or not “Protestant”) who really avoid addressing the fact that the cross is the instrument of our Lord and Savior’s torture and used to kill him. They really, REALLY do NOT want to see a cross (I do mean “cross” here – not “crucifix”)… anywhere… in print or in 3 dimensional model. Even an empty cross. I have actually met folks who treat it like it’s something to not even be talked about.

Incredible, as you say. Yet, alas, true.

Yes… at any point of the day, any day of the week, we’re all at some point on our own journeys toward, away from, or with our Lord and Savior. That avoidance of the cross just happens to be where, in reality, some folks – as hard as it is to believe that it could be the case – are on their journeys.

I can understand why some folks find the corpus (body) of Christ represented still being on the cross to be, like we used to say a few decades (eek!) ago… “that’s pretty heavy!” I don’t blame 'em… I really don’t. After all, seeing His body on the cross brings the message in a LITTLE bit eek: ) tight… right in your headlights.

As a Catholic, all I can do is imagine that gives the crucifix gives pretty much the same message as an “empty” cross does for my non-Catholic Christian brethren. But as a Catholic, I find MUCH more comfort in seeing (and underneath my shirt, wearing) a crucifix… and not (just) an empty cross.

Hope this helps for everyone’s understanding on the matter? :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

[Grace_Seeker]

All I can share to help clear things up is that, yes, as a Catholic I have met and spoke with non-Catholic Christians (Protestant or not “Protestant”) who really avoid addressing the fact that the cross is the instrument of our Lord and Savior’s torture and used to kill him. They really, REALLY do NOT want to see a cross (I do mean “cross” here – not “crucifix”)… anywhere… in print or in 3 dimensional model. Even an empty cross. I have actually met folks who treat it like it’s something to not even be talked about.

***I find it incredible that you find any protestant who doesn’t like the cross. ***

Incredible, as you say. Yet, alas, true.

Yes… we’re all on our own journeys toward, away from, or with our Lord and Savior. That just happens to be where, in reality, some folks – as hard as it is to believe that it could be the case – who avoid “the cross” altogether.

I can understand why some folks find the corpus (body) of Christ represented still being on the cross. For (most of) us Catholics, that gives exactly the same message as it does to someone who prefers to see the cross WITHOUT his body on it. But as a Catholic, I find MUCH more comfort in seeing (and underneath my shirt, wearing) a crucifix… and not (just) an empty cross.

Hope this helps for everyone’s understanding on the matter?

Thanks, Veronica. That is helpful. I don’t doubt your experience. And it is good for me to hear that with the clarity with which you said it. I suppose the reason I find it incredible is that though I am 51 years old. Grew up as a PK (preacher’s kid), am a pastor, and in the process of my many moves, where in some cases either I or my father served multi-point charges, I have experienced regular worship in at least 36 different congregations. And with these congregations representing a diverse sampling: as small as 8, as large as 1800, rural, small town, inner city, and suburban, Methodist, UCC, ELCA, non-denominational, black, white, hispanic, and mix, midwest, south, east coast, American, Chilean. And then add to that the even greater mix of exposure I have had in shared ministry alongside other pastors, in ecumenical ministries with other congregations, that I worked at a Christian bookstore in seminary, simply visiting other congregations on vacation, being an organizer hosting large-scale youth events attended not just by hundreds of youth but literally hundreds of congregations that I have never even once encountered that. And I believe if I had I would have noticed because I would have found it shocking. So, that is why I find it incredible.

So, as the OP asked, have you been able to determine why?

I can get the squeamishness. But, I can’t get the unwillingness to associate with it. That is basically a denial of the key touch stone of one’s faith – that Christ died to set us free. He didn’t die a peaceful death either, he died a violent one. This is something we need to keep before us, not to be gruesome, but so that we can truly understand the cost, the depth of God’s sacrificial love, and be thankful. Makes you wonder what in the world a person with that way of relating to Jesus thinks that John 3:16 is all about?

Anyway, as you can actually identify a few people, (and I assume you are talking about protestants here, not Unitarians or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or something like that) can you give me a sense of the frequency with which it is found and the circumstance which made you aware of it?

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Thanks, Veronica. That is helpful. I don’t doubt your experience. And it is good for me to hear that with the clarity with which you said it. I suppose the reason I find it incredible is that though I am 51 years old. Grew up as a PK (preacher’s kid), am a pastor, and in the process of my many moves, where in some cases either I or my father served multi-point charges, I have experienced regular worship in at least 36 different congregations. And with these congregations representing a diverse sampling: as small as 8, as large as 1800, rural, small town, inner city, and suburban, Methodist, UCC, ELCA, non-denominational, black, white, hispanic, and mix, midwest, south, east coast, American, Chilean. And then add to that the even greater mix of exposure I have had in shared ministry alongside other pastors, in ecumenical ministries with other congregations, that I worked at a Christian bookstore in seminary, simply visiting other congregations on vacation, being an organizer hosting large-scale youth events attended not just by hundreds of youth but literally hundreds of congregations that I have never even once encountered that. And I believe if I had I would have noticed because I would have found it shocking. So, that is why I find it incredible.

So, as the OP asked, have you been able to determine why?

I can get the squeamishness. But, I can’t get the unwillingness to associate with it. That is basically a denial of the key touch stone of one’s faith – that Christ died to set us free. He didn’t die a peaceful death either, he died a violent one. This is something we need to keep before us, not to be gruesome, but so that we can truly understand the cost, the depth of God’s sacrificial love, and be thankful. Makes you wonder what in the world a person with that way of relating to Jesus thinks that John 3:16 is all about?

Anyway, as you can actually identify a few people, (and I assume you are talking about protestants here, not Unitarians or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or something like that) can you give me a sense of the frequency with which it is found and the circumstance which made you aware of it?

Well… just a few people. I don’t dig into asking what their identification with membership of any particular church is – I don’t ask “what church to you belong to?”. But when someone asks me whether I believe in God… or Jesus… or whether I’ve “taken Jesus Christ as my personal savior” – which, frankly, makes no sense at all to me as a cradle Catholic… like, isn’t that obvious because I’m a Christian? – I just say “yes.”

It was truly weird when someone first asked me that about 20 years ago. BTW, I, too, am 51 years old. And served as a catechist in both states in which I’ve lived.

Anyhow, back to my reply here for how often or circumstance… when someone asks me if I’ve taken Jesus as my personal Lord and savior… I say – “of course!” It’s really a strange question for us Catholics to hear for anyone who eats and drinks Jesus’ very own Body and Blood as He, Himself, commanded us to do. This is the Eucharist (“Communion”) that we do at every Mass every day of the week, every week of the year, every year.

Matthew 26:14-17
Mark 14:7-8

After all, how much closer to our Lord can we get than when He literally gives to us his very own, literally, Body and Blood, transubstatiated by the priest from bread and wine?

Depends with whom I’m speaking, I’ll sometimes just reach around my neck for the 32 inch chain below my shirt on which is a crucifix. Once in a while the person will say - not differentiating between “crucifix” and “cross,” that “although I am pretty sprititual, I don’t believe in crosses.”

That’s a pretty clumsy (on my part) description to you of what has been an experience in my life once in a while.

By the way, a Mormon (L.D.S. church member) – God bless 'em! – or a Jehovah’s Witness – God bless 'em! – often tell me that they ARE Christian. I don’t belabor the point with them. Their definitions of the terms are vastly different than the definitions that Christians use. (no offense… it’s a reality)

The Unitarians whom I know are so lassaiz faire (spelling?) about beliefs that for me, it’s way too wishy-washy to even discuss any theological point, at all, with them because they just always reply (in my experience, mind you) that it really doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you love and let other people believe whatever it is that they choose to believe, themselves.

I don’t understand that position any more than I understand when someone tells me about “the Universe.” And I’ve learned not to ask questions to get them to clarify what it is that they mean, because in my experience they have not been able to do so.

I’ve gone a bit off topic here… but, I hope that perhaps that might help describe what experiences I’ve had wih such discussions?

 

[Kitty_Chan]

when someone asks me if I’ve taken Jesus as my personal Lord and savior… I say – “of course!” It’s really a strange question for us Catholics to hear

By the way, a Mormon (L.D.S. church member) – God bless 'em! – or a Jehovah’s Witness – God bless 'em! – often tell me that they ARE Christian.

Hey hope you dont mind a interuption

When someone asks you if you have taken Jesus as your Lord, they are basically trying to determine your, for lack of better term “spiritual understanding” because of what you quoted about Mormans, JW’s. As there are many who go to church, who do not understand exactly who Jesus is.

That question is asked probably for several reasons

to be superior to you

to help you understand He is more than just a story

to know how deep a conversation they can have with you, so you can chat.

If you say yes, then thats perfectly fine. Dont feel odd, think of it as helping communication between the two of you.

Depends with whom I’m speaking, I’ll sometimes just reach around my neck for the 32 inch chain below my shirt on which is a crucifix. Once in a while the person will say - not differentiating between “crucifix” and “cross,” that “although I am pretty sprititual, I don’t believe in crosses.”

You just remeinded me of something! Quick story with a question, my catholic friend and I are shopping for a costume for a video shes dancing in. (yrs ago) anyway she has to dress for a rock video. We are in a shop that we normally wouldnt shop, cause she needs leather arm bands etc. (yea fun I know thats why we were together)

Anyway we get a outfit together for her. And when she comes out of the change room for the 10th time. Her crucifix is hanging out not tucked under her outfit.

The shop girl is happy says she looks really rockin now. But that (and she points to her crucifix) she says you cant have that, its sin.

My friend and I looked at each other, my friend said Oh Im not wearing this on the video shoot. This makes the shop girl happy.

We bought the stuff but couldnt really figure out what the shop girl was on about. Theres some obvious thoughts but oh it means sin! Now, that is a odd take on a crucifix.

Any ideas, anyone?

 

[passioncrosslov]

Here is the text you were asking about (MKJV)

Over the last few years I have developed many pages of notes and questions about the “cross.” This has long been a favorite subject of interest to me.

If I were to sum it all up, I would say how the cross of Jesus Christ is the center of all time, the meeting place of this life and the next. Today; the “cross” is not just jewellry or some sort of religious adornment. The cross is also a Person because a Person hung on that cross to die for us.

If our eyes were fixed on Jesus, as He died on Calvary; we would see the perfect Son of God giving life to you and to me!

The cross speaks of the immense worth of each human soul.

And apparently, you are all worth EVERYTHING to Jesus!!

BTW; I made the logo attached to this post. Please pass it on.

Thanks! I think external symbols are great, but what’s more important is that we keep our crucified Lord in our hearts.

 

[RobHom]

I think sometimes some people tend to over-complicated the issue. What no-one seems to realize is that the word “crucifix” is a word that is indigenous to Catholicism.

The word “cross” is generic.

Many people have been taught to literally abhor everything and anything “Catholic”. Once you accept that fact, you will begin to understand why many things are the way they are.

When I think of Christ’s sacrifice for us… I think of His being “crucified”…not “crossified”.

Also, many non-Catholics only give what I call lip-service to the torture and death that Christ endured for our sins.

I am not saying all non-Catholics are like that, but I do believe that many more are than are not.

 

[RobHom]

I think the question that needs to be asked is why do Catholics think that protestant don’t like the cross? Some of the ideas that I have read in this thread that supposedly Protestants don’t value the pain and sorrow of Christ on the cross, or embarassed by it, or just don’t like to deal with the reality of the sacrifice, and that Christ accomplished a great work for our redemption on it, that protestants don’t understand while grace is freely given that it isn’t free and was very costly to God – these views that some seem to think are found within and held be protestants are completely outside of the reality that I have experienced as a protestant for the last 51 years.

You and the denomination that you belong to may be unique in that aspect.

I find it incredible that you find any protestant who doesn’t like the cross. I can only guess that you and I are living in totally different worlds, for the view you project on to protestants is not mine, that of my congregation, nor any other protestant I know. I’m not going to deny that you have had some of these experiences, but I can’t believe that they in any way, shape or form, come even close to representing the norm within protestantism. They ring about as true for me, as when some protestant asks, “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary?”, would ring true for you. In other words, it is a question that begins with a false premise, and therefore cannot actually be answered because doing so implies as true something that is actually false.

First, you have to differentiate between “cross” and “crucifix”. Generally speaking…protestants do not have a cross with Christ on it. The Catholic “crucifix” does…and therein lies one of the basic differences.

I never said that protestants don’t like the cross…you used the word “cross”. It is the Catholic “crucifix” that many object to, as they object to many things Catholic. They are the same people that ask the perennially stupid question “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary”?

The premise of the question isn’t false…not if the proper name of the object is used.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

You and the denomination that you belong to may be unique in that aspect.

I don’t think so, as I have been on staff at a church in 3 different denominations, and visited many others. I would have thought that working in a Christian bookstore that served the general public, I would have learned about any denomination that didn’t lift up the cross. But, I accept that even a broad spectrum of experience is not inclusive of all expressions of faith. So, I have learned something from Veronic tonight.

First, you have to differentiate between “cross” and “crucifix”. Generally speaking…protestants do not have a cross with Christ on it. The Catholic “crucifix” does…and therein lies one of the basic differences.

You’re right about that. I thought I had been differentiating. I’m just responding to the title of the thread, untill the OP gets on here and says that s/he meant to ask not about the cross but about the crucifix. As I’ve said before. Because protestants do differentiate between them there would probably be different answers to the questions if the OP had asked about why some protestants don’t like the crucifix.

I never said that protestants don’t like the cross…you used the word “cross”.

Did I say that you said protestants don’t like the cross? I apologize if I implied that I was referring to you personally (I know I was replying to your post and quoted you, so I can see why you might have understood me that way. My bad.) But what I actually said was,

I think the question that needs to be asked is why do Catholics think that protestant don’t like the cross?

In fairness, probably should have said “some Catholics” there as well. But if you read the OP’s comment and St. Violet’s post No. 127, above, you will see that they both do indeed use the term “cross” not “crucifix”.

It is the Catholic “crucifix” that many object to, as they object to many things Catholic. They are the same people that ask the perennially stupid question “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary”?

I admit to that happening. And that was my point. I could understand a question asking about why that is. But that isn’t the question that was asked. That is why I suggested that this question makes about as much sense as the “stupid question” asking “Why do Catholics worship the Virgin Mary?”.

The premise of the question isn’t false…not if the proper name of the object is used.

Right… not IF the proper name is used. The objection that I see among many protestants is not to a generic cross, but to a crucifix because they perceive it to be a “catholic” cross. (For the record I think those sorts of objections to a crucifix are ridiculously parochial as well, and unnecessary. But that isn’t the topic of this thread.)

 

[RobHom]

I think we understand each other.

I probably should have explained my perception of a “cross”. I always think of the word “cross” as really being a “crucifix” with Christ on it. Otherwise…to me, without Christ, its not much more than two boards of different lengths attached to each other. Please don’t misunderstand that statement…its just an explanation of “my” thoughts.

 

[Protestant101]

I think we understand each other.

I probably should have explained my perception of a “cross”. I always think of the word “cross” as really being a “crucifix” with Christ on it. Otherwise…to me, without Christ, its not much more than two boards of different lengths attached to each other. Please don’t misunderstand that statement…its just an explanation of “my” thoughts.

True; a cross without Christ would be just jewelry. I don’t have a major problem with people using a “symbol” to represent Christ’s death on Calvary. Sometimes the symbols in question are over-worked and over-rated. One thing that has come to mind for me as I read all the posts here is that there are two sides battling it out as to whether or not a literal cross of some kind is OK to use as a “symbol” to “represent” Christ, and Him crucified.

A further dimension could be added here to give a more comprehensive answer. Let me try to ask a question here; to better explain this next point. When we look at the various contexts and uses of the word “cross” in the Bible, does it always mean the instrument upon which Christ died? Are there some cases, in the Bible where the word cross is used in a metaphorical sense?

Perhaps, too many of us are getting caught up in specious debate about “crucifix” versus “cross” and we are in fact missing out on the true New Testament meaning of “take up thy cross?”

Luk 9:23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Is this a physical cross, and if not, what does this mean for us as Christians today? I know that Catholics usually choose to wear a literal cross around their necks; but is this text talking about that, or something else? Protestants are maybe scared of saying this is “OK” but really; all we need to do is look at the full meaning of Scripture to see that it is not intrinsically wrong. Maybe there is something else we don’t know??

 

[Bennie_P]

Recently I caught part of a broadcast on TBN where Demond Wilson (remember Lamont on Sanford & Son? He’s born again and preaching now) was talking about how when Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” came out, he was happy that it put some focus on Jesus in the secular press but he was annoyed that it focused on the crucifixion instead of the resurrection.

And while, yeah, without the resurrection we’ve got nothing to put our faith in…why is it that some Protestants seem to belittle the cross or want to ignore it altogether?

They want the prize without understanding the price.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

They want the prize without understanding the price.

Don’t you get it? bakhita’s question: “why is it that some Protestants seem to belittle the cross or want to ignore it altogether?” does not accurately express what is behind a statement such as Wilson made. So, it is completely false to say that they [protestants] want the prize without understanding the price. In fact, I find that particular assumption an offensive projection.

And after Rob Horn’s well-worded statement had given me hope that we were all on the same page, too.