Why don't the resurrected remember where they were?

[PenguinBeak]

The likes of Lazarus, Jairus’ daughter and those who appeared from their graves after Christs death were …you could say ‘resuscitated’. Not resurrected.

You seem very determined to ensure that people use the word “resurrect” properly so I assume the proper terminology regarding these phenomenon has been established. If there’s a proper way to use the term “resurrect” and it refers to a phenomenon distinct from those where Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter came back to life then what’s the term for describing the return to life experienced by Lazarus?

You see, from my understanding, any return to life is called a Resurrection and the specific incident where everyone returns to life at the end of time is simply referred to as “the Resurrection at the end of time” or “the Resurrection on the last day” or any alternate phrasing that refers to that particular event. And so, I believe the word “Resurrection” can indeed be used freely since you are the only person I’ve ever seen attempt to impose boundaries on how it’s used.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

St. Thomas Aquinas who wrote that the person is a (matter-form) composite rather than a soul in a body.

I forgot to ask, what’s the difference between the matter-form composite idea and the soul-in-a-body idea?

St. Thomas Aquinas uses matter-form composite and Avicenna uses soul-in-a-body dualism. Plato thought migration of the soul to a new physical body was what happens. With dualism the soul is an immaterial substance independent of the body.

With Aquinas the rational soul is the substantial form of the body considered as matter.

 

[Totus_tuus118]

You can think what you like, but Lazarus was not resurrected from the dead . He was brought to life again by a miracle of Christ. Been brought to life does not imply he was resurrected.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen once at the end of time. The just into glorified bodies. Its scriptural and church teaching.

The CCC states :

"Christ’s resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that He had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised were returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again.

“Christ’s resurrection is essentially different. In His risen body He passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ resurrection, His body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: He shares the divine life in His glorious state” (no. 646).

 

[ahs]

Jesus makes a distinction between what? Also, what point are you making here?

See Lk 16:26 and surrounding verses.
The point is that not all reference to “hell” is a reference to eternal damnation.

 

[PenguinBeak]

With Aquinas the rational soul is the substantial form of the body considered as matter.

What does the word substantial mean?

Christ’s resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that He had performed before Easter

It’s interesting that the Church doesn’t use the term “resurrection” when referring to those that Jesus raised from the dead. I guess you were right to assert the distinction.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

With Aquinas the rational soul is the substantial form of the body considered as matter.

What does the word substantial mean?

Substantial is belonging to substance rather than to accidents, or reducible to the category of substance. Substantial form accounts for the actual existence of different things. Accidents are appearances, species, or properties of a thing.

Hylomorphism is the theory that physical beings are composed of the prime matter (undefined primitive) and substantial form (definite mode of existence).

 

[Gorgias]

PenguinBeak:

That’s interesting. So everyone was, at best, in Limbo after death but nonetheless, they were all in Hell. Interesting.

Sort of. Recall that there is “Hell” as we’ve come to know it ( of the damned), but there was also Sheol and/or Abraham’s Bosom (maybe that’s Sheol…don’t remember).
Anyway, in the parable of the rich man and the beggar (Lazarus), Jesus makes a distinction between them, and says “a great chasm exists between “ them, and no one can go from one to the other.

It’s only “sort of” if by that, you mean “not really.”

The theory of “limbo” (which is only a theological theory and not a doctrine of the Church!) is that there’s a third eternal destination besides Heaven and hell; it says that the third destination isn’t really in the presence of the Beatific Vision but also isn’t the punishment of hell.

So, the righteous dead – who died prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus – weren’t in a permanent destination. They were awaiting Christ and the salvation He would bring. So… outside of heaven? Yep. In ‘hell’? Nope.
In ‘limbo’? Nope.

You see, from my understanding, any return to life is called a Resurrection

‘Resurrection’ implies permanence. Lazarus’ return to physical life wasn’t permanent. He subsequently died.

 

[PenguinBeak]

Substantial is belonging to substance rather than to accidents, or reducible to the category of substance. Substantial form accounts for the actual existence of different things. Accidents are appearances, species, or properties of a thing.

Hylomorphism is the theory that physical beings are composed of the prime matter (undefined primitive) and substantial form (definite mode of existence).

Okay man, I just want you to know that I didn’t comprehend a single word of what you said. I’ll take Philosophy and Theology more seriously some day though.

The theory of “limbo” (which is only a theological theory and not a doctrine of the Church!)

Is it not true that St. Thomas Aquinas argued in favour of Limbo? Is it not also true that one of the Popes made the teachings of Aquinas the official teachings of the Church?

 

[Gorgias]

Is it not true that St. Thomas Aquinas argued in favour of Limbo?

The teaching on limbo appears in the supplement to Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae, and guess what? He didn’t write it. After his death, other authors put together some of the things he wrote during his life, and added it to the ST, as if he actually wrote it. So, among the things we find in the ST, the stuff in the supplement is the most suspect.

Is it not also true that one of the Popes made the teachings of Aquinas the official teachings of the Church?

No.

As I recall, there was an assertion from a pope that Aquinas’ teachings be read and appreciated by all Christians, since he was the most honored among theologians, but that doesn’t mean that all of his writings thereby became official Church doctrine.

 

[Vico]

… Okay man, I just want you to know that I didn’t comprehend a single word of what you said. I’ll take Philosophy and Theology more seriously some day though.
…

Substance is what something is, the essence, and accidents are the appearances of it, the properties. So going back to the earlier post:

With Aquinas the rational soul is the substantial form of the body considered as matter.

A human being essentially consists of body and soul. We could distinguish in the person two halves, body and soul, but this will not make the person into two beings or two entities of the body and soul.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Not to oversimplify things, but the word sleep is used to those who have “came back” to life.
So if they are anything like me, when I am asleep and wake up I do not always remember my dreams.
Perhaps it is that simple, they were merely in a state of “soul sleep”.

As such they may have no memory of a specific place they were at…near death experiences are all over the road as to what some experience.

Scripture gives us a pretty good distinction between those of the Old Testament who died (and were awaiting for Christ to descend to hell and offer salvation) and to those of the New Testament.

Just a theory…

 

[Totus_tuus118]

Interesting theory, but I would argue that. When St. Paul spoke of ‘sleep’ it was in reference to the body at ‘sleep’ awaiting it’s resurrection.

The soul is immortal , the faculties of the soul are memory , awareness, (consciousness) etc.

So I believe those who were brought to life again did have awareness of their existence in their post death state.

 

[BlueMaxx]

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

Also

When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd making a commotion, 24 he said, “Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him. 25 But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. 26 And the report of this spread throughout that district.

And

2 And all were weeping and bewailing her; but he said, “Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, “Child, arise.” 55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat. 56 And her parents were amazed; but he charged them to tell no one what had happened.

So this “sleep” means something…and “her spirit returned” is a clue…

A side note is that the ones healed where told to eat, and when Jesus came to the disciples he ate with them…I always found that curious…

 

[BlueMaxx]

I believe Jesus descended to hell to offer grace to those who died before His ultimate sacrifice…

Then there is also this event…of someone who was dead…

From Luke 16
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Totus_tuus118]

From what the Church teaches , they would have gone to Abrahams Bosom , it was a place in Hades where the righteous souls went after their death. This was like a former purgatory , as they awaited the redemptive work of Christ.

Its very important to understand aswell that Christs descent into ‘Hell’ was not the place of damnation , it was in reference to the realm of the dead in general. Christ went to reveal Himself as redeemer to these souls and open up the gates of Heaven to them .