Why don't we as Catholics discuss prophecy ?

[Reuben_J]

Generally when we want to discuss something we would like to know, what is the use?

Teaching on end time prophecy as rightly mentioned here is obvious: we don’t know when, Jesus did not know when, only the Father does. We are only required to be prepared all the time as it will come at any time.

So with the exhortation that we have to be prepared, as Christians why would we want to go into the unknown realm? It will only confuse us and more likely we will be wrong on it. It is better not to indulge in it like what other people do but just be prepared. Is my prayer life good? Is Jesus in me; do I abide in him? Do I have the love of God in me? The latter is the most important because we can never do that unless the Holy Spirit empowers us. Our objective is obvious – to be prepared and that most of all, is to always seek the Kingdom of God and everything else will fall into place.

 

[beehumble]

Biblical prophecy is Biblical, not private revelation or pseudo prophecy.

ok, here ya go, biblically. The Elijah who is to come before the Day of the Lord, has come, and like with John the Baptist it can be said, “they did not recognize him.”

Israel is a nation again, and Jerusalem is no longer trodden underfoot by the Gentiles - the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation has come and has been cut short. We are living through the ‘time, times and a half time’ of Daniel and Revelation - these are the appointed times of God that cover the Short Time of Satan - the time when he is released for a short time before the end (Rev chapter 20). The twentieth century up to and including now IS the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20 when he is released from his chains - the ‘42 days’ (the time times and half time) in which the demon is authorized to act. The present hour, is the hour of Satan. Then will come the fiery end, the resurrection of the dead, the judgement, the casting of the ‘goats’ (“sheep on the right, goats on the left”) into the eternal fire, and the indwelling of God on the restored (‘new’) earth.

So look up and be ready.

You might want to read the book A While Longer and check out the website of the same name, and read this website: ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/coming.htm

Note part of what Blessed Mary said to St. Faustina in the 1930s:
“You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come…! Determined is the day…(Diary 635)”

And there is an entire thread series on the end times - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9295242&posted=1#post9295242

God bless you.

 

[Darran]

ok, here ya go, biblically. The Elijah who is to come before the Day of the Lord, has come, and like with John the Baptist it can be said, “they did not recognize him.”

Israel is a nation again, and Jerusalem is no longer trodden underfoot by the Gentiles - the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation has come and has been cut short. We are living through the ‘time, times and a half time’ of Daniel and Revelation - these are the appointed times of God that cover the Short Time of Satan - the time when he is released for a short time before the end (Rev chapter 20). The twentieth century up to and including now IS the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20 when he is released from his chains - the ‘42 days’ (the time times and half time) in which the demon is authorized to act. The present hour, is the hour of Satan. Then will come the fiery end, the resurrection of the dead, the judgement, the casting of the ‘goats’ (“sheep on the right, goats on the left”) into the eternal fire, and the indwelling of God on the restored (‘new’) earth.

So look up and be ready.

You might want to read the book A While Longer and check out the website of the same name, and read this website: ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/coming.htm

Note part of what Blessed Mary said to St. Faustina in the 1930s:
“You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come…! Determined is the day…(Diary 635)”

And there is an entire thread series on the end times - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9295242&posted=1#post9295242

God bless you.

Very good. Although I would very much doubt we are in the rule of the anti-christ currently. I don’t deny the possibility of it being soon, though. Ireland is still above water afterall (literally, St Patricks prophecy and whathaveyou).

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I have always wondered why we as Catholics don’t speak much about biblical prophecy. Why is that?

I used to be Protestant, and I think I can say there’s a stronger sense of judgement in Protestant circles. Or at least the circles I moved in.

Secondly they “only” refer to the Bible, and don’t have a strong regard for tradition, and of course people are free to come up with their own interpretations. This means that quite often there is some topical rumour going the rounds - Bankcard as the mark of the Beast, the Toronto Blessing as demonically caused, a zillion guesses as to who the anti-Christ is etc. You’ll have conservative Protestants claiming Charismatics are of the devil, and vice versa. Mind you, I’ve seen some right wing Catholics go pretty close to this attitude regarding their more liberal counterparts, and probably vice versa.

Third, I think the continued reception of the Eucharist has a stabilising effect.

Fourth, much of the Protestant literature (in the West anyway) comes from the USA, so American Protestant ideas tend to dominate discussion even in places like Australia. If I walked into a Protestant bookshop over here, it would be a fair assumption that at least 80% of the titles would originate in the USA. And it would probably hold for a Catholic bookshop as well.

Yet as my old pastor used to say, he thought a lot of American Eschatology (“last days theology”) is a “bit weird”. He thought the American Civil War had a devastating effect on a religious society, and thought a lot of the more outlandish theories could be traced back to that event.

Having said all that, I had the experience myself of the above mentioned pastor being prophetic himself. I found that if he said something, it nearly always happened. It might have taken some years, but it took place at some stage eg. a comment not long after the First Gulf War, probably around 1991 - “I think there’ll be a second Gulf War. I think the Americans will have had enough of him (Saddam Hussein) and they’ll get rid of him. But I think they’ll lose a** few **men the next time.” And the way he said “few” it was obvious he meant more than a few.

Result - Second Gulf War started 12 years later in 2003, the Americans got rid of Saddam
Hussein in 2006, and they lost nearly 5000 men, “more than a few”, compared to the

“DoD … reports of 148 US battle-related deaths (35 to friendly fire), with one pilot listed as MIA. A further 145 Americans died in non-combat accidents.”

for the first Gulf War (from Wikipedia).

And this wasn’t an isolated prediction of his either. He also thought a particular American politician might be the anti-Christ,and nominated a particular Australian politician as our “king” - one of the ten kings. His additional comment was “I don’t see all these things happening till he’s in his seventies.” The Australian politician he nominated will turn 73 this year (the pastor died in 1992, twenty years ago), so if he was right, then we’re in for an interesting few years, as there’s only seven left till the political figure in question turns 80.

He also predicted an African-American president by the way. Yet Obama was not the man he mentioned as the potential anti-Christ.

So as a former Protestant, I wear two shoes. I’ve got some respect for some of their prophetic utterances, depending on who is doing the predicting (I expect them to have an honest track record before I give them any credence), but I also have the benefit of the stabilising effect of the Catholic Church.

Mind you, I think we’re living in deeply troubled times.

 

[plainatheart71]

We are on our way to joining the Catholic Church. So I guess we would still be considered Protestant even though in our hearts we aren’t.
With that said, for the year and a half that we were without a church before attending our first Mass where we were hooked, we were studying at home. The reason is that we had been involved heavily in a church for 8 years that was part of the “Charismatic Movement”. Now I don’t mean Charismatic as in filled with the Spirit.
While we were there I attended a Prophecy class. I thought it would be on Biblical Prophecy. It wasn’t. It was about doing personal prophecy to people. We were told that when God gave us a prophecy, or “word”, that His voice would sound like our own voice. Well this confused me because I certainly thought God would sound a lot different than me.
Then the last time I went we went to a couples house and they had a room set up with chairs in a circle with a single chair in the middle. We all sat with one of the family members in the circle. Then we each in turn had to prophesy over that person and they tape recorded it so they could listen to it whenever they wanted. I remember being scared to death. I didn’t know what I was doing. And I knew enough scripture to know that I shouldn’t speak something in the name of the Lord if it wasn’t the Lord telling me to do it.
Then, the week before we left the church this man had the entire prophecy team come to the front (I was no longer part of it). They then sent most of them out in twos into the town to go and prophecy over people at the grocery store or wherever they met someone. Then the remaining people were to choose people out of the congregation and speak a personal prophecy over them. Two rows down from us were some dear friends of ours. One of the prophecy team went to them, had them stand up, then proceeded to “prophecy” over the man and berate him in front of the congregation for not “getting behind his wife in her ministry.”
So when you go talking about prophecy I kind of step back. It took this past year and a half of de-programming and my husband and myself digging into the scriptures to know the truth of the word on what prophecy is. But here’s the thing that has spoken most to me. Since we have been attending Mass and been in the real presence of Jesus, and since I attended a CRHP women’s retreat and was able to go to confession (modified since I’m not Catholic yet), Jesus has healed me spiritually to where it no longer consumes my every thought the things that we witnessed and the heresies that were taught. It has come from sitting in Mass, just sitting in His real presence that Jesus has healed me.
For almost 2 years I openly spoke out against the Charismatic Movement, or personal prophecy to warn people. And the personal prophecy is only the tip of the iceberg in that movement. But now I am basking in the balm of Gilead that has been applied to my heart by my beloved Lord and Savior.
I’m sorry if this hasn’t gone along with what this thread was supposed to be. I didn’t mean to go off on a tangent. But if what I’ve shared can help even one person from going through what we did then it will be worth it.
I want to add how much we craved and needed the liturgical Mass, the traditions as well as the Word. And I am so thankful that Pope Benedict is as adament as he is about prophecy.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That doesn’t mean we should make it a number 1 priority over everything else, but it is a concern, especially so should we have ANY possible reason to believe that it might be soon.

Sounds like the Boy Who Cried Wolf. I’m sure Harold Camping, Ellen White, and Jack Chick didn’t like the moral of that story either.

You too. What do you think I was saying? The end times is a fair thing for us to discuss, the scriptures tell us to be ready at any time. Unpreparedness is always foolish and lets face it, a seven year reign of satan incarnate is going to take some real spiritual preparation, so much so that God orders all of us (whether in the first century or the 21st) to be ready.

Unless you immediately spell it out right now what you mean by ‘be ready’, I’m sticking to what I’ve experienced from end-times enthusiasts.

And from my experience, their definition of ‘prepared’ involves stockpiling organic food, storing weapons, and hiding underground. Yeah sure, like I’m going to waste my time with that sort of ‘preparation’ for an event I don’t even know when will happen. I might as well be on the lookout for some secret recruitment agency that selects mecha pilots or monster hunters.

I prefer this definition of preparedness:

So with the exhortation that we have to be prepared, as Christians why would we want to go into the unknown realm? It will only confuse us and more likely we will be wrong on it. It is better not to indulge in it like what other people do but just be prepared. Is my prayer life good? Is Jesus in me; do I abide in him? Do I have the love of God in me? The latter is the most important because we can never do that unless the Holy Spirit empowers us. Our objective is obvious – to be prepared and that most of all, is to always seek the Kingdom of God and everything else will fall into place.

And with that said, if this is what it means to be prepared, then such Christian principles should drive those to remedy the ills which the enthusiasts are decrying ‘sign of the times’.

Economic collapse? Try to improve the economy! Homosexual agenda spreading? Oppose it in your own way! Don’t just stand there jumping for joy thinking that it means Jesus is coming soon. Even if it’s in your own little way, try to solve the issues plaguing society instead of wishing for its destruction (and to the enthusiasts, please don’t deny this cuz I’ve heard all your excuses).

If I had to choose between trying to fix society so as to prevent the ‘signs’ from happening or just simply let evil slide so that ‘prophecy is fulfilled’, I would choose the former. It doesn’t matter if you think such evil is a sign that Jesus is coming. I wasn’t raised and educated in Catholic schools and Jesuit universities just so I can discard the principles of social justice.

To the original poster, I too have been curious as to why Catholics don’t seem to discuss much Biblical prophesy. I, for one, am tired of the right wing interpreting Revelations to paint the Catholic Church in a less than flattering light, while the Church offers no real rebuttal.

Borrowing a line from Nick Fury: “Because of this.” points below

Speaking from my own observation, Prophecy is notoriously abused by those who take it seriously. It is often inappropriately applied and sometimes outrageous claims are made.

Prophecy is also a great field for charlatans and manipulators to work in. There is no good yardstick against which one can say “this is appropriate and this is not”, except to measure against what is already known and taught.

(Thanks for saving us the trouble of spelling it out Hesychios. )

 

[TimothyH]

Very good. Although I would very much doubt we are in the rule of the anti-christ currently. I don’t deny the possibility of it being soon, though. Ireland is still above water afterall (literally, St Patricks prophecy and whathaveyou).

While I take issue with some of beehumble’s post, he does make some good points and the Bible is clear about the Antichrist.

The word Antichrist is found five times in the Bible, and only in St. John’s letters.

*Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18)

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

…and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. (1 John 4:3)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 1:7)*

Scripture is clear. The Antirchrist was already in the world when St. John wrote his letters. Anyone who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as God in the flesh is the Antichrist.

-Tim-

 

[Darran]

Unless you immediately spell it out right now what you mean by ‘be ready’, I’m sticking to what I’ve experienced from end-times enthusiasts

Seems I was right about something for a change.

“Be ready” is from Scripture, not my mouth. Contend with it.

Scripture is clear. The Antirchrist was already in the world when St. John wrote his letters. Anyone who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as God in the flesh is the Antichrist.

I recommend you read the Catechism or indeed any other orthodox teaching of the end times.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

 

[GaryTaylor]

Please lets move on… “Prophecy”.

The “WHY” has been established to the OP. What remains is the “What” in relation to prophecy we are speaking on, “in particular”?

 

[beehumble]

Just to be clear, I did not mention or use the word ‘anti-christ’ in my post. I mentioned Satan.

(And I was not referencing John’s ‘last hour’ per se, I was talking to the Short Time of Satan of Revelation 20 that comes just before the very end - ‘…after the 1000 years he is released for short time…’.)

TimothyH yes I am curious about what you take issue?

God bless.

 

[beehumble]

Very good. Although I would very much doubt we are in the rule of the anti-christ currently. I don’t deny the possibility of it being soon, though. Ireland is still above water afterall (literally, St Patricks prophecy and whathaveyou).

Literally is above water, but figuratively maybe not. First, that alleged prophecy is just that, alleged. Second, I have often wondered if years or centuries after the prophecy it was distorted to become too literal of an interpretation.

Figuratively, the sea can be a type for the world, for politics, for temporal secular things.
Did the prophecy, if perhaps it was shown as Ireland sinking into the sea, mean rock solid Catholic Ireland would fall into apostasy one day? Which it has.

God bless you.

 

[Darran]

Literally is above water, but figuratively maybe not. First, that alleged prophecy is just that, alleged. Second, I have often wondered if years or centuries after the prophecy it was distorted to become too literal of an interpretation.

Figuratively, the sea can be a type for the world, for politics, for temporal secular things.
Did the prophecy, if perhaps it was shown as Ireland sinking into the sea, mean rock solid Catholic Ireland would fall into apostasy one day? Which it has.

God bless you.

Not exactly, something the opposite. It says that Ireland won’t ever be ruled completely by evil. It is said to happen 7 years before the end of the world (starting from the anti-christ reign). I can’t remember names at all, but there were some other saints who saw a similar vision, one even seeing England be swept away by water but emerge, which would be typical if a whole Island nearby went swimming.

In any case, we’ll need to wait and see. I should probably get my snorkel on.

 

[jlhargus]

I have always wondered why we as Catholics don’t speak much about biblical prophecy. Why is that?

There is very little official Chruch teaching on future prophecy. There are a lot of books and SPECULATION by scholars and theologians and visions of saints. Speculation is about the best that can be done. Some theories could be right some not. It’s educated guess work.

 

[TimothyH]

I recommend you read the Catechism or indeed any other orthodox teaching of the end times.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm

Thanks for the suggestion. I am very familiar with the Catechism’s teaching on the end times and have read those passages many times. They are consistent with what St. John writes about the Antichrist.

The Catechsim clearly states that there will be a “final unleashing of evil.” Of the Antichrist, as you have quoted, the Catechism states:

The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment.

This is exactly as St. John states in his letters. The Antichrist takes form in the world whenever anyone denies that Christ is God in the flesh and state that there is no judgment, that we are to judge ourselves.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Just to be clear, I did not mention or use the word ‘anti-christ’ in my post. I mentioned Satan.

(And I was not referencing John’s ‘last hour’ per se, I was talking to the Short Time of Satan of Revelation 20 that comes just before the very end - ‘…after the 1000 years he is released for short time…’.)

TimothyH yes I am curious about what you take issue?

God bless.

Yes, Darren mentioned the Antichrist. Not you. Right.

I didn’t mean to pick on Darren. If by “Antichrist” we mean the final unleashing of evil, then I agree with him.

People use the phrase Antichrist in the context of the Book of Revelation and don’t realize that it isn’t even mentioned in Revelation, but only in John’s letters. What we really mean is the “Final unleashing of evil”. The Antichrist, as both St. John and the Catechism points out, are in the world now and were already in the world at the time of St. John.

The twentieth century up to and including now IS the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20 when he is released from his chains - the ‘42 days’ (the time times and half time) in which the demon is authorized to act. The present hour, is the hour of Satan. Then will come the fiery end, the resurrection of the dead, the judgement, the casting of the ‘goats’ (“sheep on the right, goats on the left”) into the eternal fire, and the indwelling of God on the restored (‘new’) earth.

I’m not too sure that the chains which bind Satan, preventing him from harming us, are not the sacraments of the Church. In fact, I am sure of it. This is what I believe the 1000 years are - the reign of Christ the King through is authority on earth, the Church. If Christ is a King, and if his Church is his authority on earth, and if sin is removed through baptism, if we are forgiven and healed of sin through the sacrament of pennance, and if we are strengthened against the attacks of the devil through recpetion of the Eucharist, then the reign of Christ through his Church is still ongoing.

If Satan has truly been unleashed and this is all he has to show us, then he is weak indeed. I fear that when we see the final unleashing of evil, it will be unlike anything anyone has ever imagined.

-Tim-

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Seems I was right about something for a change.

Oh, you weren’t right before? That actually tells a lot about your skill with speculating something as pointlessly speculative as the end-times. Again, why not give Harold Camping a call? I’m sure he has fine tips for about predicting the end of the world.

I recommend you read the Catechism or indeed any other orthodox teaching of the end times.

The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

There are a great many events which could fit this description from the Enlightenment to the Great Depression and beyond. Thanks for proving once again that I’ve heard all your excuses.

 

[JohnAlexander]

I believe the prophecy in terms to predicting what would happen in the future for the most part was important to convince people the Jesus was the Messiah.

The old testament and the Jewish people, existed to prepare the world for the coming of Jesus. Jesus is the savior of the world, not of the Jews.

Any other prediction of what will happen in the future is unnecessary for our salvation.

 

[Jerusha]

Any person who has studied history can name many major upheavals which could have been markers of the end times. The bubonic plague, WWII, for example. That it did not happen in those times shoud be an indicator to all of us that there could be a lot worse. Today is peanuts.

 

[Darran]

Yes, Darren mentioned the Antichrist. Not you. Right.

I didn’t mean to pick on Darren. If by “Antichrist” we mean the final unleashing of evil, then I agree with him.

People use the phrase Antichrist in the context of the Book of Revelation and don’t realize that it isn’t even mentioned in Revelation, but only in John’s letters. What we really mean is the “Final unleashing of evil”. The Antichrist, as both St. John and the Catechism points out, are in the world now and were already in the world at the time of St. John.

I wouldn’t kick the idea out completely that it could in fact be an individual person. It always seemed to me that what they were saying was more more the “spirit” of the antichrist, given that the language used in Revelations would appear to be quite strong for the idea despite not mentioning him by that particular title. I am far from an expert though ofcourse. The book of Revelations is difficult, but I would say that is all the more the reason to talk about it more. (Getting off the new point of the thread and back to the old again, sorry )

 

[feed_me]

ok, here ya go, biblically. The Elijah who is to come before the Day of the Lord, has come, and like with John the Baptist it can be said, “they did not recognize him.”

Israel is a nation again, and Jerusalem is no longer trodden underfoot by the Gentiles - the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

The Great Tribulation has come and has been cut short. We are living through the ‘time, times and a half time’ of Daniel and Revelation - these are the appointed times of God that cover the Short Time of Satan - the time when he is released for a short time before the end (Rev chapter 20). The twentieth century up to and including now IS the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20 when he is released from his chains - the ‘42 days’ (the time times and half time) in which the demon is authorized to act. The present hour, is the hour of Satan. Then will come the fiery end, the resurrection of the dead, the judgement, the casting of the ‘goats’ (“sheep on the right, goats on the left”) into the eternal fire, and the indwelling of God on the restored (‘new’) earth.

So look up and be ready.

You might want to read the book A While Longer and check out the website of the same name, and read this website: ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/coming.htm

Note part of what Blessed Mary said to St. Faustina in the 1930s:
“You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come…! Determined is the day…(Diary 635)”

And there is an entire thread series on the end times - forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9295242&posted=1#post9295242

God bless you.

Can we stop listening to false prophets Please ^, They don’t don’t know what they are talking about ^. Beehumble, Harald Camping called and said stop trying to be like him… unless you are making a joke that Im not grasping