Why don't we as Catholics discuss prophecy ?

[beehumble]

Any person who has studied history can name many major upheavals which could have been markers of the end times. The bubonic plague, WWII, for example. That it did not happen in those times shoud be an indicator to all of us that there could be a lot worse. Today is peanuts.

The major, major (did I say major? ) indicator of Israel reborn as a nation, and the other - Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews again - did not happen until relatively recently. Nobody should have expected the time of the end before those two events. These are two things that make this time very different from all other times.

 

[beehumble]

Can we stop listening to false prophets Please ^, They don’t don’t know what they are talking about ^. Beehumble, Harald Camping called and said stop trying to be like him… unless you are making a joke that Im not grasping

Funny, I don’t recall setting a date - can you remind me of it? thanks. (Jesus did indicate there would be signs that He is near.)

And a prophet I am not - my wife would love that one!! We are all called to pray to understand the signs of these times, though.

God bless you.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please lets move on… “Prophecy”.

The “WHY” has been established to the OP. What remains is the “What” in relation to prophecy we are speaking on, “in particular”?

It is good if the “What” can be stated here. As it is, this thread has evolved to cover almost any prediction of the future or the assumption that some of the world events to be regarded as Biblical prophecies depending on one’s interpretation.

 

[TimothyH]

I wouldn’t kick the idea out completely that it could in fact be an individual person. It always seemed to me that what they were saying was more more the “spirit” of the antichrist, given that the language used in Revelations would appear to be quite strong for the idea despite not mentioning him by that particular title. I am far from an expert though ofcourse. The book of Revelations is difficult, but I would say that is all the more the reason to talk about it more. (Getting off the new point of the thread and back to the old again, sorry )

This is true, and you show a more developed understanding than I had given you credit for. I did jump off the handle when I heard the word Antichrist. Please forgive me. It comes from arguing with millenialists here in the south.

John does speak of the Spirit of the Antichrist and we cannot rule out the final unleashing of evil through the actions of, or led by a single person. I tend to shy away from looking for the Antichrist in any single person. That’s just me.

I have led Bible studies for a while now, and I’m struggling with repeating our foundational study which covers the whole Bible for the sake of our new members, or doing the study of Revelation, which I really want to do for myself. I really want to dig into Revelation.

I think the key to Revelation is understanding that it is at the end of the Bible for a reason. Much of what it states has basis in the rest of scripture. The locusts, the stopping of the wind from the four corners of the earth, the heavenly Jerusalem - most of Revelation in fact comes from the Prophets and more of it than people realize are direct references to Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jerimiah, Daniel et al. The prophets themselves are not really well understood - who they are, how they operated, where they operated, their day to day function in the context of the Jewish religion - these are not well understood by Christians in general.

-Tim-

 

[beehumble]

Actually it is a well known sign, as is Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews -Jesus directly mentioned it regarding the times of the Gentiles. The other issues menitioned are more about human history and do not pertain to Salvation History. For example, support for Israel by others; if one thinks of it as of God and a part of His plan of Salvation, no other nations’ or peoples’ support is necessary. (And it is of God.)

And it being secular is not relevant either - Ezekiel prophesies the flesh of Israel will be restored, and then the spirit, so the spirit is to come (“conversion of the Jews”), but the ‘flesh’ has to exist first, and so it does - the flesh, the nation, now exists. Orthodox Jews also argue against Yeshua too, and will until the conversion. How Israel became a nation, again the human history and how it ‘overlays’ with God’s plan of Salvation is interesting to note but not relevant.

(Not to mention that the statement of how it became a nation is not quite accurate or at least is limited in the full scope of events of the time - it was not all through terrorism and violence on the part of the Jews although near the end,when the British balked and reneged on their prior agreements in 1946/1947 due to Arabian oil and not wanting to damage Arab relations because of the oil, the Jews were forced to take matters into their own hands. In 1920 in San Remo, Italy, after WWI, the victorious powers built up the Balfour Declaration of 1917 into a legal framework, legitimizing the right of the Jews to settle in their historical homeland. And note the Turks of the Ottoman Empire, in 1915, 1916 and 1917 were intent on driving out any remaining Jews from the area, even by terror and killings. Allenby’s defeat of the Turks and conquest of Jerusalem stopped all that. Before his victory, half of the Jews in the area had fled to British Egypt for protection.)

The only relevant points are: Israel is a nation again, for the first time in over 2000 years, the Hebrew language, once dead, is now fully revived and a living language again, and their holy city of Jerusalem has been restored to the Jewish people. All of this is God’s plan, and predicted for the time of the end.

God bless you.

 

[beehumble]

I’m not too sure that the chains which bind Satan, preventing him from harming us, are not the sacraments of the Church. In fact, I am sure of it. This is what I believe the 1000 years are - the reign of Christ the King through is authority on earth, the Church. If Christ is a King, and if his Church is his authority on earth, and if sin is removed through baptism, if we are forgiven and healed of sin through the sacrament of pennance, and if we are strengthened against the attacks of the devil through recpetion of the Eucharist, then the reign of Christ through his Church is still ongoing.

If Satan has truly been unleashed and this is all he has to show us, then he is weak indeed. I fear that when we see the final unleashing of evil, it will be unlike anything anyone has ever imagined.

-Tim-

The reign of Christ as King is forever.

However, Satan will attack Christ’s Church, intent on destroying it.

Satan was bound by the will of God. God willed that the message of Jesus be spread to all the earth, and that nothing, including Satan be allowed to stop its spreading. It is spread through the Church guided by the Holy Spirit, hence the Great Commission. So until it is spread to the earth, Satan is ‘bound’ – he is limited as to what he is permitted to do to stop it. However, once it is spread throughout the world, Satan then is ‘unchained’, and granted authority to act. It took nearly twenty centuries to spread to the world. And so we have Pope Leo’s vision of Satan being granted/choosing the 20th century to attack the Church, choosing his Short Time as the 20th century.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:14, “the Gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.”

This ‘end that will come’ is also known as the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20, which will come after the ‘thousand years’, that is, after the gospel is preached to the world. This short time is equated in various places in Scripture to a figurative 42 days, and 1260 days, and it is also called the “time, times, and a half time”.

Paul refers to this as well. In 2 Thessalonians 3 he says Jesus will not return until the apostasy comes and the lawless one is revealed…and that the lawless one is restrained, until he is revealed in his time. [His time is the twentieth century - so we are told from the Pope Leo vision and from a more recent alleged apparition that confirmed that vision - and he is restrained until the Gospel is preached to the nations.

So a view in theological circles and one I hold, suggests that it is the preaching of the Christian gospel that restrains the end, for in God’s plan the end cannot come until the gospel is preached to all nations.

This milestone was reached around the start of the twentieth century, with Rwanda being one of the last places to hear the Good News, in 1900, from the White Fathers.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the horrors of the twentieth century as a weak attempt by Satan. For one, there were more martyrs in the century than in all others combined, and more people died unnatural (and often quite horrendous) deaths in this time than in all other centuries. Look at jharek’s post on the Russian history lessons.

And Satan’s time is not over. The worst is still to come, so we hear from words from recent alleged apparitions, and it will come soon, so it is said. This will be (allegedly) the last gasps of Satan and it will be horrible for all those who live through those times to reportedly soon come. It will no doubt ‘be unlike anything anyone has ever imagined’, perhaps worse than the foretold Rwanda massacres that came, which still bother me because they were so hideously evil. The books *If Only We Had Listened: Heaven Warned Rwanda Long Before the Genocide and Our Lady of Kibeho: Mary Speaks to the World from the Heart of Africa are shockers, and true, and recent.

God bless you.

 

[sallybutler]

The main reasons why Catholics don’t discuss end-times is because Jesus said it wan’t important

 

[feed_me]

Funny, I don’t recall setting a date - can you remind me of it? thanks. (Jesus did indicate there would be signs that He is near.)

And a prophet I am not - my wife would love that one!! We are all called to pray to understand the signs of these times, though.

God bless you.

The Great Tribulation has come and has been cut short. We are living through the ‘time, times and a half time’ of Daniel and Revelation - these are the appointed times of God that cover the Short Time of Satan - the time when he is released for a short time before the end (Rev chapter 20). The twentieth century up to and including now IS the Short Time of Satan of Rev chapter 20 when he is released from his chains - the ‘42 days’ (the time times and half time) in which the demon is authorized to act. The present hour, is the hour of Satan. Then will come the fiery end, the resurrection of the dead, the judgement, the casting of the ‘goats’ (“sheep on the right, goats on the left”) into the eternal fire, and the indwelling of God on the restored (‘new’) earth.

Just asking? Please tell me you are joking on that, or you got that somewhere else.

 

[Maryann_C]

Oh my apologies ; Future prophecy.

I understand that we do not believe in private interpretation but wouldn’t it at least be healthy to discuss biblical prophecy to gain a better understanding?

It seems like many Catholics are afraid to speak about the end times and AntiChrist etc.

I guess you haven’t read Scott Hahn’s Supper of the Lamb where he delves in to the book of Revelation?

 

[Darran]

This is true, and you show a more developed understanding than I had given you credit for. I did jump off the handle when I heard the word Antichrist. Please forgive me. It comes from arguing with millenialists here in the south.

John does speak of the Spirit of the Antichrist and we cannot rule out the final unleashing of evil through the actions of, or led by a single person. I tend to shy away from looking for the Antichrist in any single person. That’s just me.

I have led Bible studies for a while now, and I’m struggling with repeating our foundational study which covers the whole Bible for the sake of our new members, or doing the study of Revelation, which I really want to do for myself. I really want to dig into Revelation.

I think the key to Revelation is understanding that it is at the end of the Bible for a reason. Much of what it states has basis in the rest of scripture. The locusts, the stopping of the wind from the four corners of the earth, the heavenly Jerusalem - most of Revelation in fact comes from the Prophets and more of it than people realize are direct references to Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jerimiah, Daniel et al. The prophets themselves are not really well understood - who they are, how they operated, where they operated, their day to day function in the context of the Jewish religion - these are not well understood by Christians in general.

-Tim-

Pfft, no problem, I didn’t think you were picking on me I’m sorry if my recommendation of the Catechism seemed bold.
Lost Wanderer:

Oh, you weren’t right before? That actually tells a lot about your skill with speculating something as pointlessly speculative as the end-times. Again, why not give Harold Camping a call? I’m sure he has fine tips for about predicting the end of the world.

Give it a rest, and stop making assumptions.

 

[GaryTaylor]

III. CHRIST JESUS – “MEDIATOR AND FULLNESS OF ALL REVELATION”

God has said everything in his Word

65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
27=St John of the Cross

There will be no further Revelation

66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

CCC

won’t be understandable to anyone apart from (name removed by moderator).

Your assuming and wrong since I commented on “another” members post here. I understand you did not understand “who”.

Unless it’s me reading wrong, there might be a wrong impression getting around

This was an unknown I wanted to clarify since the OP is “prophecy”.

Biblical prophecy is Biblical, not private revelation or pseudo prophecy.

BIblical Revelation is described above per the CCC, your CCC quotes refer to the Church in exile on earth. I understood this. Your assuming who read the CCC in regards to “revelation”.

When someone asks a question about biblical prophecy your minds shouldn’t go straight to think about unreputable “prophecies”.

Assumption on “your” part, which I felt no need to entertain. However, you seem to want to dwell here?

There is plenty of Catholic teaching on the matter that can be talked about.

Yes there is plenty to discuss, such as?

They may be more common this century but it shouldn’t affect anybody’s idea of the orthodox teachings, much less to miss the clear warnings we are given to “be on your guard”.

Not really more common this century, its gone on since the Apostles and will continue as war has loomed over mankind in its entire course of History. Never has there been a period of peace. Through the “private revelation” of Fatima we have heard the message that war is the result of mankinds sins. IMHO it has that distinct ring of truth to it. Who said man is beyond Good & Evil, Nietzsche? Good and evil are not myths, although many myths have been attributed to them in the illusion of mans mind, and deception of evil, often occurs when in his own pride man becomes a god in his mind. Pride was the issue in the Garden, so too its an issue today.

Good is the prerequisite to eternal salvation, and the history of mankind is God and those whom entertain something other than. Any race, tribe or nation which violates the Commandments by killing or stealing from one another will cease to exist. However, as we see with Israel this also doesn’t exactly mean prevail is assigned to the finite minute. Gods chosen people in bondage for hundreds of years is indeed a fact, and a very clear message is attached to it to transend time, just as the Cross. Those who cannot remember 2+2=4 are subject to the consequence of their mathmatical error. Thus here we are today.

Makes you also think of another Biblical prophecy regarding the end times, does it not

“Absolutely” was a comment by me to “this sentence in particular”, not an affirmation of the previous comments, which I was trying to move past by moving the conversation foward.

The OP mentioned “prophecy” this section entitled “prophecy” doesn’t appear in the CCC. What does appear is “Revelation”. Then this is divided in sub-sections. Thus the need to clarify.

Its understood there are concerns worldwide.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Give it a rest, and stop making assumptions.

Says the guy who makes sweeping, judgmental assumptions about Catholics who find ‘prophecy’ a subject that is not worth an ounce of their mental energy.

Get yourself a mirror and look at it. Hard.

 

[rinnie]

Oh my apologies ; Future prophecy.

I understand that we do not believe in private interpretation but wouldn’t it at least be healthy to discuss biblical prophecy to gain a better understanding?

It seems like many Catholics are afraid to speak about the end times and AntiChrist etc.

What is there to discuss?

Christ said the time of his second comming he Knows not as Man but only as God.

HE told us he would NOT tell us, only that it will be sudden, like lightning.

So what is there to discuss?

 

[Hesychios]

The major, major (did I say major? ) indicator of Israel reborn as a nation, and the other - Jerusalem in the hands of the Jews again - did not happen until relatively recently. Nobody should have expected the time of the end before those two events.

Why not?

 

[Darran]

Your assuming and wrong since I commented on “another” members post here. I understand you did not understand “who”.

Unless you know what he and I have exchanged in the past I don’t think I’m making much of an assumption. It’s not relevant to you. It’s none of your business.

This was an unknown I wanted to clarify since the OP is “prophecy”.

The OP is Biblical prophecy, the wrong impression I noticed seemed to sprout from interpreting “Biblical” to “newage fanatical protestant paranoia” “prophecy”.

BIblical Revelation is described above per the CCC, your CCC quotes refer to the Church in exile on earth. I understood this. Your assuming who read the CCC in regards to “revelation”.

The CC I referenced wasn’t directed to you, I was talking to TimothyH, that is who I quoted afterall. Besides that you are missing the point of what I was actually saying, that Biblical prophecy is genuine and there is plenty to discuss. You are reading what I said as though it is aimed directly at you and not to the general thread.

Assumption on “your” part, which I felt no need to entertain. However, you seem to want to dwell here?

Not exactly much of an assumption considering almost every post between the first and second pages of this thread misunderstood what the OP was asking and thought he was talking about Harold Camping style fake prophecy and not about discussing actual Biblical prophecy.

Yes there is plenty to discuss, such as?

Eh? Revelations? Pick up a Catholic dictionary and go wild.

Apocalypse

End of the world
Anti-Christ

There is nothing here to discuss?

Not really more common this century, its gone on since the Apostles and will continue as war has loomed over mankind in its entire course of History…

Unless I completely misunderstand what you’re saying, you are on an entirely different page altogether here mate. I am talking about false prophecies.

“Absolutely” was a comment by me to “this sentence in particular”, not an affirmation of the previous comments, which I was trying to move past by moving the conversation foward.

Wasn’t directed at you.
Lost Wanderer:

Says the guy who makes sweeping, judgmental assumptions about Catholics who find ‘prophecy’ a subject that is not worth an ounce of their mental energy.

Get yourself a mirror and look at it. Hard.

Why is it none of you understand a thing I write? Why are you branding me as some end times crazy guy when I’ve said nothing to even hint at that? I am right in saying that those who don’t “be on their guard” as the scriptures say are fools, just as the 10 bridesmaids are foolish. You are also still reading “prophesy” out of context. There happen to be some events in the Bible which are yet to happen, these happen to be called prophecies. Those things that people come up with for attention are not.

Can you both get off my back now? I no idea how you are picking me up so wrong. By the way Gary, the last quote wasn’t yours.

 

[Wandile]

I think Darran is the only one who understands what I was asking. It really is not that complicated:shrug:

I was simply asking why Catholics tend to not discuss Biblical prophecy (Book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc) and what Jesus had to say about the end-times.

Please don’t mistake this for being any radical fundamentalist false prophet nonsense. We’re beyond that, we’re Catholic

I can’t believe how so many of the replies state that there is nothing to be discussed

The book of revelation has so much that we are required to know as christians. It is indeed, a difficult book to understand as well as other endtime prophecy. Discussions allow us to gain a better understanding of the text at hand. No doctrinal resolutions can be deduced from these discussions, but it would prove educational don’t you think?

 

[tarboy]

I agree, can’t fathom why this morbid topic is interesting or relevant.

Whether the end is tomorrow, or in 6,666 years, it won’t change the way I should be living my life

What is there to discuss?

Christ said the time of his second comming he Knows not as Man but only as God.

HE told us he would NOT tell us, only that it will be sudden, like lightning.

So what is there to discuss?

 

[beehumble]

Yes, it is true that historical events cannot be compressed into one or two lines - entire volumes are written on these topics!

The ‘how’ of Israel being born again as a nation, and Jerusalem being possessed by the Jews, is a non sequitur so I shouldn’t have gone there. What leaves me gobsmacked is watching Salvation History unfold in human history.

Fair enough; and I do see it as fulfilling Biblical prophecy and presaging the time of the end.

 

[beehumble]

I agree, can’t fathom why this morbid topic is interesting or relevant.

Yes, and some people like to work on cars, and some don’t.

[Myself, I would not post anything at all to a thread about working on cars if I don’t like working on cars, though, especially “I don’t see why anybody likes to work on cars.”]

God bless you.

 

[beehumble]

I think Darran is the only one who understands what I was asking. It really is not that complicated:shrug:

I was simply asking why Catholics tend to not discuss Biblical prophecy (Book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc) and what Jesus had to say about the end-times.

Please don’t mistake this for being any radical fundamentalist false prophet nonsense. We’re beyond that, we’re Catholic

I can’t believe how so many of the replies state that there is nothing to be discussed

The book of revelation has so much that we are required to know as christians. It is indeed, a difficult book to understand as well as other endtime prophecy. Discussions allow us to gain a better understanding of the text at hand. No doctrinal resolutions can be deduced from these discussions, but it would prove educational don’t you think?

Perhaps because many of us Catholics are unschooled in these matters and we struggle with the basics, let alone advanced topics like those you list above.

Keep in mind, Protestants live and breathe the Bible, especially the New Testament, because that is all they have.

We have the Church, the Mass, the sacraments, Apostolic Tradition and Succession. If all the New Testament’s in the world were to suddenly disappear, the Protestants would be at a loss as to what to talk about at their next Sunday service. Catholics on the other hand would continue as we always have - we don’t need the New Testament; Jesus did not give the Apostles a book, He spent three years teaching them everything they needed to know, and the Apostles passed this down under guidance of the Holy Spirit, to the present day. So Catholics don’t feel the need to dwell on these more esoteric aspects of Scriptures, such as Revelation. Of course, with over a billion Catholics, some of the parts of the ‘body’ do dwell on those topics. Scott Hahn as has been mentioned wrote at least two books on it - one quite thorough.

God bless you.