J
japhy
Guest
Well, there’s a difference between saying “the song must end by the end of the lavabo” and the priest waiting 30 seconds after the lavabo so that the song ends and he can say “Pray, brethren.”
- Status
P
Phemie
Guest
I guess I should have said ‘should end by the end of the lavabo so as to not impede the flow of the liturgy.’ GIRM 74 makes it clear that it need only last until the gifts are on the altar.
First of all, let me say that it annoys me when we don’t sing all the verses of a hymn. But I will follow that by saying it annoys me because I like the hymns and I like to sing. It’s all about me. But the Mass is not all about me.My non-Catholic eye doctor made a comment at my last visit. (We talk about faith.) Apparently, he has attended Mass on occasion. He mentioned that Catholics don’t sing all the verses of the songs at Mass. Does anyone have any ideas why we don’t sing every verse of every song so that I can explain this to him?
This just goes to show that hymns are not necessarily the best type of music to be singing for Mass. In fact they are not the number one recommended type of music for most parts of the Mass. Hymns are by their design, supposed to be sung in their entirety. (O Come, O Come Emmanuel is not a hymn because it is not meant to be sung in it’s entirety at a given time.) But singing an entire hymn seldom fits with the overall liturgical rhythm of the Mass.
There is a tension between what is most artistically, liturgically, and/or educationally suited for any part of the Mass with a given congregation. The ideal hymn for a given part of the Mass would have to be just the right length for whatever liturgical action is taking place. As a result, the ideal hymn length is going to vary from Mass to Mass, from priest to priest, from parish to parish, etc.
J
japhy
Guest
On the flip-side, it irritates me when the verses of hymns are recycled – that is, the hymn has been finished, but the musical director (the organist/pianist at my parish) feels there has to be more music to cover the fact that some particular liturgical act has not been completed. Heaven forbid there be silence in the Church, especially during the Offertory and after Communion!
The worst offense of this nature is when a hymn clearly ends with a doxology (often trinitarian), and yet we start singing from verse 1 again.
The worst offense of this nature is when a hymn clearly ends with a doxology (often trinitarian), and yet we start singing from verse 1 again.
S
Sarabande
Guest
At my parish we now usually sing every verse or almost every verse for the Processional, Communion and Recessional hymn. Certain hymns we do not sing every verse, though. It depended on if the verses made sense according to the readings or feast days, etc. But, we usually have our hymns printed out in a sheet so that they only include the verses that are tio be sung. An organ instrumental piece or choral motet (if during our 11:00 which has the choir) is usually played during the offertory and, as others have mentioned, the organist or the choir must finish by the end of the lavabo so the that priest is not waiting.
Prior to our current pastor and other resident priests, we had other priests (no longer in residence there) who never wanted to have all the verses sung for the Processional and Recessional. They would get really upset if they were already in the sanctuary and we’d sing two or three more verses to complete the hymn. So, it got the point where we’d only end up singing two verses usually.
Prior to our current pastor and other resident priests, we had other priests (no longer in residence there) who never wanted to have all the verses sung for the Processional and Recessional. They would get really upset if they were already in the sanctuary and we’d sing two or three more verses to complete the hymn. So, it got the point where we’d only end up singing two verses usually.
G
Guitar
Guest
This is my problem with it, too. If we are going to sing a hymn it’s obviously not ideal to sing it in a way that makes a dog’s breakfast of the text. The hymn, however, is subordinate to other things, not like for an Anglican service where the hymn is there in its own right. I try to select hymns that can be cut short for times when they might need to be.
Three cheers for the earlier poster who pointed out that extra verses usually take less than a minute - I timed each verse + chorus of a Christmas carol once when I got a complaint because we sang all seven verses on the day this carol was most appropriate … had we sung four verses there would have been no complaint … the extra three to finish the story took just under 30 seconds each.
We pick and choose verses as long as it “works”. “O Come All Ye Faithful” is one example - we choose particular verses to suit Midnight Mass (don’t sing “born this happy morning”), Christmas Day Mass, the feast of the Holy Family (“lo, he abhors not the Virgin’s womb”) and the Epiphany (“See how the shepherds, summoned to his cradle/Lo, star-led chieftains”).
L
Leopard
Guest
While this is correct, it does not necessarily follow that it is necessary to sing all the verses of a song to accomplish these purposes.
P
Phemie
Guest
But all the verses are usually necessary to get the message of the hymn – unless of course the hymn is written to add or omit certain verses for particular feasts.
A few examples:
Jesus Christ Is Ris’n Today
When we stop after the 3rd verse, we leave out the doxology.
O God, Almighty Father
If Fr. gets to the chair at the end of verse 2 and we then only sing the refrain and skip verse three, we talk about the Trinity in the refrain but omit the verse about the Holy Spirit. And boy, I’ve heard that happen more often than not at a Mass where there is no choir.
Alleluia! Sing to Jesus!
Stop before verse 4 and you leave out all mention of Jesus as Eucharistic Feast.
C
Cavaille-Coll
Guest
When I was an Anglican, we sang all the verses of the processional and recessional, even if there were seven or eight of them. At the recessional, the choir followed the priest out and came back up the side aisles. Nobody dreamt of leaving before the hymn was over. When I became Catholic, one of my first Masses was in a little town in southern Bavaria where everyone sang hymns from hardbound missals. They were your typical German hymns like “Grosser Gott, Wir Loben Dich” (Holy God, We Praise Thy Name) and everyone sang loudly with all verses. In fact, at the processional, the people began the song seated and only stood after three or four verses when the sanctuary bell rang and the acolytes emerged from the sacristy. At the recessional, the priest and acolytes stood at the foot of the altar until all verses had been sung, then processed out to an organ postlude. Nobody left early.
As I see it, our problem here in America rests on a few issues. One is a lack of good, singable music with orthodox texts. We’ve been subjected for too long to disposable hymnals filled with banal, meaningless lyrics set to overly-syncopated tunes. We’ve exchanged the “king of instruments” for the guitar of childrens’ campfire tunes; we’ve forsaken the great hymns of centuries of Christendom for three-chord folk tunes stolen from the sappy scores of 1970’s television commercials.
Another issue is a lack of the understanding of the spiritual value of singing, both on the part of people and clergy. Many Roman-rite Catholics are surprised to learn that Byzantine Catholics sing their entire Divine Liturgy, even the readings and Gospel (without accompaniment!).
A third item is a fading sense of public manners: not too long ago, it was considered offensive to walk out during Mass unless there was an emergency; now, some people do it every week. To not give thanks to God after receiving the Eucharist is akin to being invited to someone’s home for dinner and not thanking one’s host before leaving. And yes, singing is praying twice. The first prayer is the text one is singing. The second is the effort one makes in praising God with the voice He gave him.
As I see it, our problem here in America rests on a few issues. One is a lack of good, singable music with orthodox texts. We’ve been subjected for too long to disposable hymnals filled with banal, meaningless lyrics set to overly-syncopated tunes. We’ve exchanged the “king of instruments” for the guitar of childrens’ campfire tunes; we’ve forsaken the great hymns of centuries of Christendom for three-chord folk tunes stolen from the sappy scores of 1970’s television commercials.
Another issue is a lack of the understanding of the spiritual value of singing, both on the part of people and clergy. Many Roman-rite Catholics are surprised to learn that Byzantine Catholics sing their entire Divine Liturgy, even the readings and Gospel (without accompaniment!).
A third item is a fading sense of public manners: not too long ago, it was considered offensive to walk out during Mass unless there was an emergency; now, some people do it every week. To not give thanks to God after receiving the Eucharist is akin to being invited to someone’s home for dinner and not thanking one’s host before leaving. And yes, singing is praying twice. The first prayer is the text one is singing. The second is the effort one makes in praising God with the voice He gave him.
J
Jennifer_G
Guest
At my old Lutheran church, we didn’t sing every verse, either. It was usually verses 1-3, or 1,2,4, or 1,2,5,6 or what-not. Some hymns have maybe 15, 16 verses. Although, sometimes all verses were sung (just like in the parish I go to now - sometimes, they sing all of the verses).
T
THurifer2
Guest
We sing every verse of every song in my parish. I cannot remember a time in the last 10 years where we cut it short.
Didnt’ realize we were and exception.
Didnt’ realize we were and exception.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I agree. I have found that a lot of Roman-Rite Catholics find singing a “waste of time”. A number of my family and friends have complained to me about singing “too much” at mass. One older relative said to me recently, “Do we have to sing everything? Mass lasts an hour now. It was never that long when I was younger.”
(She grew up in the 50s/60s.)I have an aunt/uncle who are Byzentine Catholic and you are right, they sing quite literally everything for mass and I think it is beautifully reverent and uplifting. I don’t think my other family/friends would know what to do with themselves if they had to go to that kind of liturgy.
At my parish, even though we sing all the verses for the recessional, people will start leaving anyway. Some priests will wait until we are near the end of the hymn before processing out, I think to keep people from doing it. I cantor almost every Sunday and can see that works for the most part. But as soon as the priest walks past their pew, it’s like the flood gates. They can’t stay the extra seconds or minute to finish the hymn.
C
Chatter163
Guest
She obviously did not attend the High Mass.
This does seem to be a very American trait and I also agree that it tends toward moving things along. The Irish clergy, in my experience, have seemed to favor this strategy, both at Mass and in the confessional.
P
Phemie
Guest
If we insist on having a hymn after Mass is over and none is necessary, and then chose to call it the “recessional hymn” let us not be surprised that people are recessing. It would make more sense to have a post-Communion hymn and have an instrumental recessional. That way DM’s and choirs can stop pulling their hair out in frustration.
P
Phemie
Guest
Methinks her memory is starting to fail. I grew up then and don’t recall the Masses being shorter – unless I went to the 6 a.m. one. I usually atteneded the High Mass and there was nothing short about that.I agree. I have found that a lot of Roman-Rite Catholics find singing a “waste of time”. A number of my family and friends have complained to me about singing “too much” at mass. One older relative said to me recently, “Do we have to sing everything? Mass lasts an hour now. It was never that long when I was younger.”
As for singing, even at daily Mass that I attended all through Advent and Lent there was a student chanting all the acclamations and responses.
S
Sarabande
Guest
This is true. I do like instrumental recessionals. We will have organ recessionals at our parish maybe about twice a month for all the masses. Since I cantor, I prefer this because I don’t have to stay in the sanctuary once the priests/deacons recess out.
That said, even if the last hymn is called the “Recessional Hymn” or “Closing Hymn”, etc. it makes you wonder why people are so eager to leave – and it’s not for the social in our chapel hall after the mass as we had that last Sunday and it wasn’t that well attended. My family was usually one of the last people to leave the church. We stayed inside to pray, etc., so it just was never an “option” or a thought to leave until after we were done the hymn and there was quiet. I don’t ever remember leaving while the hymn was still going on, except recently when I attend mass as a congregant before the mass that I cantor. (Sometimes the mass will go over an hour and the 12:15 starts in the chapel, so I have to be in the Sacristy for that mass.) In our parish in the country where I spent half my childhood, everyone stayed to the last verse, then we’d all leave and then we’d socialize out in front of the church. In my childhood home parish in the pseudo-country (which has now become the outskirts of the suburbs), people race out.
Living in between two major metropolitan cities, I’ve found that the closer you are to a busy city, the more eager people are to race out of church and into their cars. It’s not just like this for mass, but for everyday life. It’s one huge race as to who will beat the traffic and waiting in lines. I find this especially obnoxious with people who commute back and forth to NYC from where I live. I sometimes have to take train back from NYC during rush hour (which makes me literally sick and claustrophobic) if I have a late lesson, music coaching or an early rehearsal. The people will trample you and not feel any remorse. As soon as they get off the train, they will literally make a mad dash to their cars to “beat” the traffic, which really isn’t that bad. I’m always just shaking my head when I see them running in their suits and dresses. It looks absolutely ridiculous and obnoxious.
Anyway, I give that example because I just think people have become so impatient today and I see that same attitude when they leave mass.
Did people do this “back in the day” prior to the 1980s and 1990s or did they rush out before the hymn or instrumental was completed?
P
Phemie
Guest
I grew up in a small village and we always walked out while the choir was singing before Vatican II, it’s the same way today. The only people who stay are those who truly want to listen to the choir – since there is no congregational singing.
N
NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
Time, most Catholics are in the routine to be in and out in an hour. Any more and people start to get ancy. It becomes ingrained over the years and that is the way it is at pretty much all parishes.My non-Catholic eye doctor made a comment at my last visit. (We talk about faith.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Yes, I have a difficult time believing that as well, as whenever I have attended the TLM (which would have been what she remembers and actually says that she liked) the regular mass lasted about an hour and 15 minutes, maybe an hour and a half.
Even the NO masses I have attended always lasted about an hour, unless I attended one without any music.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
IT could just be a local custom. I’ve been in churches where all stanzas were sung.
- Status