C
- Status
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Well, yes you really did. You had a couple of posts minimizing experiences of hell.
R
RogerDeCourcy
Guest
The problem is that churchmen preach as if Hell doesn’t exist. Thus, most lay people act as if it doesn’t.
When it’s brought up, out come the legalisms.
If I was a priest, I’d preach often on Hell and hope I was overdoing it, than preach little or not at all and lose souls and thus my own.
When it’s brought up, out come the legalisms.
If I was a priest, I’d preach often on Hell and hope I was overdoing it, than preach little or not at all and lose souls and thus my own.
C
Credo_in_Deum
Guest
There is common ground; its called using both. I use the CCC and BC. When I want to be clear on what the CCC states I turn to the BC.
D
Darran
Guest
And both Popes presuppose the proper response to Hell. In any case, they are not speaking Ex Cathedra, whereas St Paul was when he wrote: “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” in the Sacred Gospels.
youtube.com/watch?v=GCf8C1Xcpds&feature=plcp
Various other saints.
Ofcourse He taught more about Hell. Keyword search isn’t going to be accurate given that Heaven is spoken of less descriptively. (Eg, “hey will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”, Gehenna, Hades, Scheol, etc). If anything, Jesus’ choice to paint a clearer picture in speaking of Hell rather than just saying it is more of a reason.
D
Darran
Guest
Spot on
O
OraLabora
Guest
Prove it.
D
Darran
Guest
Do your own research, there’s no sermon or parable He gave without mentioning Hell. God doesn’t waste words, thus we take Him seriously, thus we fear Hell.
The only proper response is to man up and accept it, anything less and our souls are more inclined to go there.
C
Cat
Guest
I’ve been following this discussion about hell with interest.
Keep in mind that I’m a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, and don’t have any memories of early days in CCD classes with any kind of catechism. We often heart “fire and brimstone” sermons in church, and every once in a while, one of the churches in town would show the movie, “The Burning Hell” (I think that was the name). I can also remember pastors re-enacting the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” (I still have a copy of this in tract form.)
That’s my background.
I personally don’t think that learning about hell will impact the average American, including many average American Catholics, in the U.S. today.
Most Americans, in their arrogance and ignorance of spiritual things, believe that “hell” is when the price of gas goes up, or they don’t win the lotto, or their cable goes on the fritz during the Superbowl.
Some of the posters in this thread have posted touching stories of people who have been through “hell on earth,” and I think a lot of Americans truly believe that those kind of incidents are “hell.” I certainly believe these terrible things are a foretaste of hell, and that they help serious Christians to order their lives and set their priorities on the things of God rather than the things of this earth.
Also, the concept of “separation from God” means nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to people who don’t really, truly believe in a personal God, and certainly don’t believe in the Christian Triune God. Many of these people have experienced separation from parents, spouses, children, and friends, and they manage to survive and often thrive, so they don’t get worried over the prospect of separation from a God that they aren’t really sure even exists. In fact, many people in the U.S. are very attracted to the idea of the “loner” who thrives on not needing anybody, including a “God.” Being on their own doesn’t sound like “hell” to many Americans, it sounds like heaven.
Obviously all of these attitudes are wrong, and are the result of a neo-pagan culture that has warped the thinking of many people, including Christians, in the U.S.
And I’m not advocating ignoring the theology and dogma of hell. I think that all Christians should know the basic teachings about judgement, hell, and the Final Things.
I’m just saying that I don’t believe that a return to a more “dark” Catholic church in which the children’s religious education classes emphasize that hellfire is always imminent would make a difference in the number of people who are serious about practicing a reverent and commited Catholic faith, nor would such a return to the past religious education practices keep people from leaving the Catholic Church. I think people would just turn up their noses and say, “Big deal.” That’s the way many of us are in the United States. We’re more concerned about getting a better burger than we are about our eternal destiny.
Keep in mind that I’m a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, and don’t have any memories of early days in CCD classes with any kind of catechism. We often heart “fire and brimstone” sermons in church, and every once in a while, one of the churches in town would show the movie, “The Burning Hell” (I think that was the name). I can also remember pastors re-enacting the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” (I still have a copy of this in tract form.)
That’s my background.
I personally don’t think that learning about hell will impact the average American, including many average American Catholics, in the U.S. today.
Most Americans, in their arrogance and ignorance of spiritual things, believe that “hell” is when the price of gas goes up, or they don’t win the lotto, or their cable goes on the fritz during the Superbowl.
Some of the posters in this thread have posted touching stories of people who have been through “hell on earth,” and I think a lot of Americans truly believe that those kind of incidents are “hell.” I certainly believe these terrible things are a foretaste of hell, and that they help serious Christians to order their lives and set their priorities on the things of God rather than the things of this earth.
Also, the concept of “separation from God” means nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to people who don’t really, truly believe in a personal God, and certainly don’t believe in the Christian Triune God. Many of these people have experienced separation from parents, spouses, children, and friends, and they manage to survive and often thrive, so they don’t get worried over the prospect of separation from a God that they aren’t really sure even exists. In fact, many people in the U.S. are very attracted to the idea of the “loner” who thrives on not needing anybody, including a “God.” Being on their own doesn’t sound like “hell” to many Americans, it sounds like heaven.
Obviously all of these attitudes are wrong, and are the result of a neo-pagan culture that has warped the thinking of many people, including Christians, in the U.S.
And I’m not advocating ignoring the theology and dogma of hell. I think that all Christians should know the basic teachings about judgement, hell, and the Final Things.
I’m just saying that I don’t believe that a return to a more “dark” Catholic church in which the children’s religious education classes emphasize that hellfire is always imminent would make a difference in the number of people who are serious about practicing a reverent and commited Catholic faith, nor would such a return to the past religious education practices keep people from leaving the Catholic Church. I think people would just turn up their noses and say, “Big deal.” That’s the way many of us are in the United States. We’re more concerned about getting a better burger than we are about our eternal destiny.
O
OraLabora
Guest
I did my own research and came up with a significantly different conclusion than you.
You made an assertion that Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.
Back it up.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
When was the last time you heard a sermon about the reality of hell in a Catholic church? I would dare say, never. You don’t think the fact that people never hear about hell just could be a reason why it is not a reality to them? Why do you think corporate sponsors spend millions and even billions of dollars on advertising, getting their message in front of people that we should buy their products. Because unless people hear about their products, they aren’t going to be aware of them and buy them.I’ve been following this discussion about hell with interest.
Keep in mind that I’m a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, and don’t have any memories of early days in CCD classes with any kind of catechism. We often heart “fire and brimstone” sermons in church, and every once in a while, one of the churches in town would show the movie, “The Burning Hell” (I think that was the name). I can also remember pastors re-enacting the famous sermon by Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” (I still have a copy of this in tract form.)
That’s my background.
I personally don’t think that learning about hell will impact the average American, including many average American Catholics, in the U.S. today.
Most Americans, in their arrogance and ignorance of spiritual things, believe that “hell” is when the price of gas goes up, or they don’t win the lotto, or their cable goes on the fritz during the Superbowl.
Some of the posters in this thread have posted touching stories of people who have been through “hell on earth,” and I think a lot of Americans truly believe that those kind of incidents are “hell.” I certainly believe these terrible things are a foretaste of hell, and that they help serious Christians to order their lives and set their priorities on the things of God rather than the things of this earth.
Also, the concept of “separation from God” means nothing, absolutely NOTHING, to people who don’t really, truly believe in a personal God, and certainly don’t believe in the Christian Triune God. Many of these people have experienced separation from parents, spouses, children, and friends, and they manage to survive and often thrive, so they don’t get worried over the prospect of separation from a God that they aren’t really sure even exists. In fact, many people in the U.S. are very attracted to the idea of the “loner” who thrives on not needing anybody, including a “God.” Being on their own doesn’t sound like “hell” to many Americans, it sounds like heaven.
Obviously all of these attitudes are wrong, and are the result of a neo-pagan culture that has warped the thinking of many people, including Christians, in the U.S.
And I’m not advocating ignoring the theology and dogma of hell. I think that all Christians should know the basic teachings about judgement, hell, and the Final Things.
I’m just saying that I don’t believe that a return to a more “dark” Catholic church in which the children’s religious education classes emphasize that hellfire is always imminent would make a difference in the number of people who are serious about practicing a reverent and commited Catholic faith, nor would such a return to the past religious education practices keep people from leaving the Catholic Church. I think people would just turn up their noses and say, “Big deal.” That’s the way many of us are in the United States. We’re more concerned about getting a better burger than we are about our eternal destiny.
You are making very big assumptions about people - that they just aren’t interested - with absolutely nothing to back up your claims. The reason people have become so materialistic in our society and so unaware of the spiritual is precisely because they never hear or are exposed to anything spiritual! With all due respect, your comments just make no sense. People are not aware of spiritual matters so don’t expose them to it??? No corporation would ever agree with your reasoning.
As you say, you did not grow up in the Catholic Church, so you are not personally aware of how different things were 40 and 50 years ago, I was around then, and I remember very well. I remember as a little girl going to confession almost every week because I did not want to take any chances on going to hell. How did I learn that? I was taught! How are people ever going to know these things unless they are taught?
For those of us who remember a different era and different values, reasoning such as presented in your post are more than a little frustrating.
Hell is real, more real than our own earth because hell is eternal and earth is temporary. People desperately need to be taught about the reality of hell and that unless we are in a state of grace hell will be our eternity. I just don’t believe in watching a drowning man die. I think we need to do all we can to pull people out of hell, not just say oh well, it won’t do any good to try.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Could we please see your research?
D
datritle
Guest
well i was raised protestant, went to public school, including university. I converted to The Church in high school, and am in the process of applying to the seminary. i live a very catholic life!
M
Melchior_1
Guest
Two weeks ago, along with the evils of contraception. And Father said it at more than one Mass, as I went to Mass twice that weekend. While talking about the reality of Hell, there was also several mentions of God’s Divine Mercy and of the message of salvation. A good ratio.
That homily was brought to you by the Companions of the Cross.
What ratio of Hell to Mercy would you like to see in sermons? 70/30 in favor of Hell being talked about?
O
OraLabora
Guest
In other words you can’t prove it and expect me to do your work for you.
Here’s something to get you started: a quick search of Biblegateway.com shows that Heaven is mentioned 136 times in the Gospels in the ESV Bible; eternal life, 26 times; Hell, 12 times, and Hades, 3 times.
One would have to parse through all of that to see context, who said what, etc, but I’ll bet you a beer that even if you take out all the non-pertinent uses of the word “heaven”, your assertion that Jesus speaks more of Hell than Heaven is false.
So either back up your claim, or admit that you just “heard it somewhere”; it is a common claim made by more than one fire-and-brimstone preacher. Just google it, you’ll find many folks who disproved it.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
God bless that holy priest. I last heard a sermon in which hell was mentioned almost 2 years ago. I go to Mass almost every day, and usually hear a homily every day. So right now my ratio is 1 in 2 years, and that includes week days.
What ratio would I like to hear? You tell me when you consider the great evil in our world, the fact that 95% of all Catholic women have used birth control at one time or another, which is a mortal sin and if not repented of can result in going to hell, the fact that 54% of Catholics voted for the most pro-abortion president we have ever had, the fact that at best about 20% of US Catholics attend weekly Mass (it’s far less in other countries), the fact that 45% of Catholics never go to confession and about 12% go once a year, the fact that only about 30% of Catholics even believe in the Real Presence. I would think hell should be mentioned at least once a month.
Or maybe I misunderstood your question. How much of a sermon should be dedicated to talking about hell? If that is the case, it should probably include at least a mention whenever sin is talked about. Putting a ratio on it is just about impossible. It depends on the sermon. Certainly it was right to mention hell in connection with contraception.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Unless you can tell us the results of your research, discussion is pointless.
In the meantime, many souls are in danger of hell fire because they are not being warned of the reality of hell.
O
OraLabora
Guest
Unless you back up your assertion with facts this discussion is pointless. I gave you my results. Now either back up your assertion with facts, or admit that you can’t. If you can prove it I’ll be the first to admit I am wrong.
You sir made the assertion, the onus is on YOU, not me, to verify the claim.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
The specifics of how many times Christ did or did not mention hell in the Gospels. and whether He talked more about hell than heaven is really unimportant. What is important is that He did mention it many times, and talked about it very forcefully, such as saying it is better to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand than sin and go to hell. Christ’s entire mission on this earth is to save us all from the eternal fires of hell. That should mean something to all Catholics and not be something we argue about. The fact is, the reality of hell is not even on the radar of most Catholics now. And that is an absolute tragedy, because that puts them in grave spiritual danger, as St. Faustina told us, who said that most of those in hell are those who did not believe in hell when they were alive.
O
OraLabora
Guest
I apologize, I see it was Darran who made the original assertion and not you, it is up to him to back it up with facts.
I do agree that hell is a very real possibility. It’s why I suggested that some people may be better placed to speak about it in terms that people will understand.
That said, not everyone is the same. Some folks will respond better to a more positive message, and the message about hell does have to be balanced with an equally strong message about Divine Mercy and hope.
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