Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

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OraLabora said:
I would add: I think this guilt, legalism and excessive emphasis on sin, hell, and our depravity might have contributed to us throwing out the baby with the bathwater in the 60s; for those who did stay in the Church, excessive liberalism and rebelliousness after Vatican II, and for those who left… well we can see the results in the secular world today.

In the end, that “good old fashioned religion” may just be what people ran away from, and it was thus a contributor to our decline (at least in the Western world).

Trust in and love for God and trust in His love for us, I think are essential to our true inner conversion. They give our faith deep roots. Legalism and guilt simply results in a superficial faith. At least that’s what I found in my case, however I know I’m not alone!
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👍
 
To throw my thoughts in here:
We are a homsechool family and the program that we are enrolled in (Seton Homeschool in VA) still uses the Baltimore Catechism through 8th Grade. But after that we go into biblical history and apolegetics.
God bless!
Chloe M.
 
Seeker1961 said:
Not sure if this is the right place for this question so moderator please move if so warranted.

Why did schools stop using the Baltimore Catechism? My school was very traditional and we used it well into the 1970’s even though others in the diocese were changing to other religion texts. Our Pastor felt “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” so he just let it remain. It wasn’t until he left that the school changed texts, and I was in HS.

I know that my religious education was FAR superior to that of my friends in other schools and others my age. I also feel it was superior to what the children are getting now.
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I agree with your last statement 100%. Those who think Catholics were only taught about their faith through the Baltimore Catechism - didn’t you have a religion class? We certainly did and the reasons were all spelled out and we could certainly ask questions. I still have a few of my original textbooks from elementary school. Even my science book, Living in God’s World (copyright 1960), taught science from a “this is what God has done” perspective and it was written by Sister M. Francis Regis, C.S.J., M. ED. from the Congregation of the Sisters of St. Joseph, Archdiocese of Boston and under the direction of The Rt. Rev. Msgr. Leo M. Byrnes, A.B., LL.D., Superintendent of Schools, Diocese of Mobile.

And yes, some parishes still use it. However, I have a copy of the latest Catechism and the original Boston Catechism is not that hard to find. (It has three parts/books. Part One for the young, Part Two for Confirmation age students, and Part Three for older teens.)

Ask your priest about it.

Peace,
Ed
 
Let me clarify what I said.

I agree that the Baltimore Catechism is a wonderful teaching instrument. And that we learned the Faith well. But it was presented to us, at least in my grammar school before the Second Vatican Council, in such a way that the emphasis was all on a harsh and punishing God. We rarely heard about God’s Love and Mercy.
 
Seeker1961 said:
My real concern is that we have generations of Catholics that seem to know very little about the faith. It seems pretty obvious that what we are doing isn’t working.

I truly believe that it was my religious education that brought me back to the Church. That strong foundation sticks with you no matter what happens in life
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Yes, and that is what some people are missing on this thread entirely. The 1960s and 1970s was the “time of the dissidents” in the Catholic Church. The wolves helped to lead some of us away.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764.html

catholicscomehome.org/about-what-we-do.php

To my fellow Catholics, don’t let vague and undocumented statements lead you to believe something else happened - by itself - a lot of hard work was put into messing up Catholic life and faith.

Peace,
Ed
 
I think the Baltimore Catechism was great also. Yes, it was memorization but it stays with you for the rest of your life, and I feel that First Communicants and children receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation were better prepared than the children now. The nuns also gave you a healthy (seculars would say unhealthy) fear of committing mortal sin and landing in hell.

I wish that that was available when my daughter was growing up. By then it was a mish mash of love love love, social teaching and not anything she needed to know about the Church.

I also believe though too, my family lived a good Catholic life, received the Sacraments frequently (weekly Confession was a “must”) attended Mass every Sunday, even on vacation and prayed the family Rosary. I think if it is not enforced in the home ex. parents not going to church, etc. none of it works.
 
utah_rose said:
I think the Baltimore Catechism was great also. Yes, it was memorization but it stays with you for the rest of your life, and I feel that First Communicants and children receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation were better prepared than the children now. The nuns also gave you a healthy (seculars would say unhealthy) fear of committing mortal sin and landing in hell.

I wish that that was available when my daughter was growing up. By then it was a mish mash of love love love, social teaching and not anything she needed to know about the Church.

I also believe though too, my family lived a good Catholic life, received the Sacraments frequently (weekly Confession was a “must”) attended Mass every Sunday, even on vacation and prayed the family Rosary. I think if it is not enforced in the home ex. parents not going to church, etc. none of it works.
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Our equivalent of the BC was drilled into us… literally. Our teachers used corporal punishment when we made mistakes. We would have to memorize a few lines as part of our homework and stand in front of the class and recite them the next morning. You’d be whacked if you made a mistake.

I’m glad that not everyone had that experience and for many it was no worse than memorizing the times tables. Fortunately I don’t ever recall getting hit because I was a good student and have a good memory, but I saw plenty of kids punished for their mistakes. It wasn’t severe… usually being rather firmly slapped on the hand by the teacher’s ruler. But I still think it was an inappropriate way to learn the Catechism.

God does love us you know!
 
As a home schooling parent, I had the option of the Baltimore Catechism. And I opted out.

I did this after talking to my mom. She grew up with the Baltimore Catechism and nuns teaching at a Catholic school.

Even she was appalled at what she didn’t know about the faith. Of living the faith. Of God’s love and mercy. Even the nuts and bolts of Salvation.

Oh, she could quote the answers, but according to her, she didn’t really know anything about Catholicism. The answer, when you questioned something? Either you believe or you don’t. You shouldn’t need an explanation. :eek:

She knew nothing about Apologetics.

I find that sad. So we didn’t use it. We used many different materials. I feel that my son can give a good explanation of his faith and why he believes.
 
YoungTradCath said:
As with so many things after Vatican II, I think it was simply sucked up into the whirlwind of the times. Correct me if I’m wrong, people, but I think it was a combination of:
  1. An abnormal obsession with change. Everything from the past, no matter its merits, history and tradition was automatically suspicious, at least at the level of Church intelligentsia. This feeling was fueled from a combination of euphoria (“exciting” times) and a sense of duty to “do what the Council wants us to do” (even though that is completely erroneous in this case).
  2. An expectation of a new catechism and/or catechetical system.
  3. Growing secularism.
Neither of the first two are an excuse; truly, our catechetical situation is an abomination and we have no one to blame but ourselves. The third was not nearly as bad as it is now, but it was still there of course.

The question now is to step back and chart a new course, and do it quickly. We already have a near universal admission of our catechetical catastrophe, so I’m sitting here -]making popcorn/-] aging wine waiting for the next step to be undertaken.
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I would not use the word catastrophe. Respectfully, I think not a few Catholics feel that such a deep hole has been dug that we can’t get out, or, almost as bad, that no individual Catholic can do enough to help, or that it does not matter. We’re all doomed!

Faith, my brothers and sisters, and hope.
  1. Realize that the secular media is no longer giving you news and certainly not news to feed your faith or give you hope. Remember, one hour in Church is competing in your mind with 24/7 garbage that is mostly anti-Christian, immoral and poisonous to living a good life. You/we NEED Catholic News:
ncregister.com/

We must face the fact that the media, in most cases, is not giving us the truth or teaching anything good.

ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-renounce-culture-that-disguises-falsehood-as-truth

I sincerely want to love everyone, but we are being lied to.
  1. The 1960s and 1970s was the time of the dissidents.
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764.html

Meanwhile, starting in 1968, the Hippies, radicals and dissidents rejected ALL authority, and practiced “alternative lifestyles” while encouraging us to do the same. And the Church?

A few quotes from my average friend who went to Hippie Boot Camp in the early 1970s.

Fornication - “performing natural acts.”
Cohabitation with sex - “I don’t need no piece of paper ta live with my old lady.”
Illegal drugs like marijuana - “I smoke it. What’s the big deal?”

Peace,
Ed
 
utah_rose said:
I think the Baltimore Catechism was great also. Yes, it was memorization but it stays with you for the rest of your life, and I feel that First Communicants and children receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation were better prepared than the children now. The nuns also gave you a healthy (seculars would say unhealthy) fear of committing mortal sin and landing in hell.
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I have been on our school board as well as adult formation cmte., as well as participated in communion and confirmation prep…and I can tell you that the formation young people receive (at our parish anyway), is vastly superior to what we had. There is no comparison. Just for starters, the parents are required to participate in communion and confirmation prep. If the parents feel they don’t need to participate, no sacrament.

BTW, we are not called to live in fear.
I wish that that was available when my daughter was growing up. By then it was a mish mash of love love love, social teaching and not anything she needed to know about the Church.
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I also believe though too, my family lived a good Catholic life, received the Sacraments frequently (weekly Confession was a “must”) attended Mass every Sunday, even on vacation and prayed the family Rosary. I think if it is not enforced in the home ex. parents not going to church, etc. none of it works.
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Despite being a “cradle” Byzantine, I was schooled using the Baltimore Catechism as preparation for First Holy Communion (we still had those back then). I have an 8 yr old son now, and as bright as he may be, I cannot imagine him or his peers who prepared for First Penance this past school year doing the same - I just don’t think it would have sunk in (notwithstanding that we now have decent catechetical materials for Eastern Christian Formation).

However, I still have my copy and it definitely left an impression on me, even from that brief usage early in my life.
 
edwest2 said:
Yes, and that is what some people are missing on this thread entirely. The 1960s and 1970s was the “time of the dissidents” in the Catholic Church. The wolves helped to lead some of us away.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764.html

catholicscomehome.org/about-what-we-do.php

To my fellow Catholics, don’t let vague and undocumented statements lead you to believe something else happened - by itself - a lot of hard work was put into messing up Catholic life and faith.

Peace,
Ed
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But the wolves (snakes) have always been there to lead us astray. The problem we get into is when Catholics devour one another unjustly due to the differences between us. Look at what happened iin the garden:

**4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband, who did eat…
12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat. **

Temptation and pride have always been challenges to spirituality, in any culture, including the first culture, which God made perfect! And notice what both Adam and Eve do when confronted with their preference for the latest temptation…They both blame someone else!! Rather than looking at the sin in their own heart. Not much has changed.
 
OraLabora said:
I would add: I think this guilt, legalism and excessive emphasis on sin, hell, and our depravity might have contributed to us throwing out the baby with the bathwater in the 60s; for those who did stay in the Church, excessive liberalism and rebelliousness after Vatican II, and for those who left… well we can see the results in the secular world today.

In the end, that “good old fashioned religion” may just be what people ran away from, and it was thus a contributor to our decline (at least in the Western world).

Trust in and love for God and trust in His love for us, I think are essential to our true inner conversion. They give our faith deep roots. Legalism and guilt simply results in a superficial faith. At least that’s what I found in my case, however I know I’m not alone!
Click to expand...
Paul himself had tremendous confidence in God’s love and mercy for those who have struggled to overcome sin.

For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Dispair is a sin because it shows lack of trust in God. Would that we all loved God like Paul, and had his confidence in the face of martyrdom!

We are probably beating up on TrueLight a little bit here. I know she did not mean dispair, or excessive legalism or total depravity. Guilt is sometimes a marker for our concience, that maybe something isn’t right with our lives.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Guilt is sometimes a marker for our concience, that maybe something isn’t right with our lives.
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Oh I agree. It’s part of my been-there-done-that education! I think we know in our hearts when something isn’t quite right, and it is tugging at our conscience.

However I get the impression many are looking for demons around every corner. We all know he lurks everywhere but we must learn to develop a healthy worldview lest we fall into despair or scrupulosity. It’s the very real risk of not emphasizing mercy enough. Yes He wants us to stop sinning but He also wants us to trust Him. When we try to be scrupulous, we are saying that we can be “good” entirely on our own power, and when we despair we feel we are powerless to improve ourselves. Both betray a fundamental lack of trust in His mercy and His appeal to us to come to Him in love, not in fear.
edwest2 said:
Meanwhile, starting in 1968, the Hippies, radicals and dissidents rejected ALL authority, and practiced “alternative lifestyles” while encouraging us to do the same. And the Church?

A few quotes from my average friend who went to Hippie Boot Camp in the early 1970s.

Fornication - “performing natural acts.”
Cohabitation with sex - “I don’t need no piece of paper ta live with my old lady.”
Illegal drugs like marijuana - "I smoke it. What’s the big deal?
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How is this anything new???

From Romans 1:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things.
24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.
27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.
28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient;
29** Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers,**
30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy.
32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
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We have never failed to fall into trouble since Adam and Eve first tasted that apple…
 
OraLabora said:
Not necessarily. Reading the Patristic and Hagiographic readings that go back to nearly the very beginnings of the Church, I can say that the approach of the saints and early Church fathers was not always negative and based on fear but also often positive and based on love, especially love of God. If we teach adherence to God’s law based on love and desire to please God, we foster perfect contrition when we do mess up as we invariably will. If we place too much focus on simply fear of hell, we will foster imperfect contrition. While imperfect contrition is still valid, perfect contrition leads to a more complete communion with God. The saint’s writings seem to me very heavy on a burning love of God, more so than a burning fear of hell.

Over the centuries there have been movements and currents in the Church that have ebbed and flowed. Jansenism for example, and Lacouturism, greatly influenced the Quebec church, the latter from the 30s onwards. Both were heavy on attaining perfection and light on giving us confidence and hope in God’s mercy. The latter also migrated to the US.

Yes but St. Paul also taught about hope, charity, God’s love, loving God, faith, and the certainty of God’s Grace. Too much focus on the fear and guilt part without equal teaching about love, charity, mercy, grace, etc. isn’t healthy. We really can’t take just one element out context. St. Paul’s writings are fairly complex and need to be viewed in light of the communities to which they are addressed, communities that were in varying degrees of communion at the time.
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I agree that there has to be a balance, but I think I object to certain things being referred to as Catholic guilt.

Also, having a healthy fear of God is not “negative”, nor does it imply that you can’t have a relationship with God also based on love.
 
OraLabora said:
Indeed we should avoid sin. But the Saints did not always teach with fear and guilt. As evidence I offer today’s second reading from the Office of Readings, for the memorial of St. Alphonsus of Liguori:

Notice how he says God tries to ensnare us with His gifts… not with fear of damnation.

This happens more often than we might imagine in the patristic and hagiographic texts.
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Again, balance. I think it is a mistake to both ignore the love of God and to ignore the fear of God and the judgment. For every text on love, there is a text on fear and judgment.

Both are essential and the early Christians understood that.

St Alphonsus Liguori speaks very plainly about hell in “DEATH, JUDGMENT, HEAVEN, AND HELL: MEDITATIONS ON THE FOUR LAST THINGS”
archive.org/details/DeathJudgmentHeavenAndHellMeditationsOnTheFourlastThingsBySt
93] 1. If hell were not eternal, it would not be hell. Punishment
that does not continue for a long time is not
grievous punishment. On the other hand, punishment,
however light it may be, when it continues for a long
time, becomes intolerable. Were a person obliged during
the whole of his life to see the same entertainments, or
to hear the same music, how could he endure it? What
then must it be to remain in hell and to suffer all its torments!
And for how long a time? For all eternity. It
would be folly, for the sake of a day’s pleasure, to condemn
one’s self to be burnt alive. And is it not folly,
for the sake of a sensual gratification, which can last
but for one moment, to condemn one’s self to the fire of
hell, whose victims, though dying every moment, yet
never, never die?
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29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers,
30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy.
32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them
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.

If I could play the role of “modern” Catechist for a sec::
How does this passage speak to -your- heart now? Does this passage contain some relevance to our lives?
 
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