Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

[severus68]

Well,

if the polls are any indication, Catholics today don’t know how to practice it and don’t even know the basics of their faith, so abandoning the BC doesn’t seem to have ushered in much improvement.

Now you are being openly insulting and disrespectful about bishops and a Pope.

 

[OraLabora]

Again, balance. I think it is a mistake to both ignore the love of God and to ignore the fear of God and the judgment. For every text on love, there is a text on fear and judgment.

Both are essential and the early Christians understood that.

St Alphonsus Liguori speaks very plainly about hell in “DEATH, JUDGMENT, HEAVEN, AND HELL: MEDITATIONS ON THE FOUR LAST THINGS”
archive.org/details/DeathJudgmentHeavenAndHellMeditationsOnTheFourlastThingsBySt

Oh, there’s no doubt we need a balanced and nuanced view! After all my favourite saint, Benedict, speaks of having a very great fear of hell to his monks.

But he also speaks of the 12 degrees of humility by which we approach (not attain mind you) perfection in God. And he speaks very much about being kind to and patient with other monks, albeit without aiding and abetting them in their sin.

My point was more or less that in my French-equivalent-of-the-Baltimore-Catechism days, we rarely if ever heard about love and mercy.

And that is plainly wrong. And it does lead to what we colloquially call “Catholic guilt” which is the product of poor catechesis of this kind, and a host of other unhealthy outlooks: scrupulosity and despair to name two.

I want to say one thing though. I don’t think it was done out of malice. I think it was with the best of intentions.

But then too so was bloodletting as a treatment for just-about-everything, and we now know that doesn’t work (except for hemochromatosis!)

Another example, until we knew more about it, post-traumatic stress disorder was known as being shell-shocked, and soldiers were punished for it, not treated for it.

 

[severus68]

God is supposed to be a father. We are supposed to follow him in freedom, out of love, not out of fear and guilt.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)

There may be some guilt when we are yet immature as Christians, and this is probably better understood as holy remorse for our sins, like David in Psalm 51. As we mature however, we are supposed to move toward perfect love. Guilt plays no part here.

People didn’t willingly accept martyrdom because of guilt, but because of complete trust in God whom they loved as a father.

-Tim-

Very well said!

 

[TrueLight]

Oh, there’s no doubt we need a balanced and nuanced view! After all my favourite saint, Benedict, speaks of having a very great fear of hell to his monks.

But he also speaks of the 12 degrees of humility by which we approach (not attain mind you) perfection in God. And he speaks very much about being kind to and patient with other monks, albeit without aiding and abetting them in their sin.

My point was more or less that in my French-equivalent-of-the-Baltimore-Catechism days, we rarely if ever heard about love and mercy.

And that is plainly wrong. And it does lead to what we colloquially call “Catholic guilt” which is the product of poor catechesis of this kind, and a host of other unhealthy outlooks: scrupulosity and despair to name two.

I want to say one thing though. I don’t think it was done out of malice. I think it was with the best of intentions.

But then too so was bloodletting as a treatment for just-about-everything, and we now know that doesn’t work (except for hemochromatosis!)

Another example, until we knew more about it, post-traumatic stress disorder was known as being shell-shocked, and soldiers were punished for it, not treated for it.

Okay. But do you think it would have made a difference if it were not only memorized but also delved into?

 

[OraLabora]

Okay. But do you think it would have made a difference if it were not only memorized but also delved into?

I think the experience of some posters here speaks for itself:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9594903&postcount=50

Yes, I would say if, after memorizing it, time was taken to dissect what was learned and understand it, in a loving manner, it would make all the difference in the world.

In my case it was only superficially memorized. I went to a Catholic elementary school and a public high school. But the teachers in my elementary school were lay and not religious, and not particularly well-equipped themselves to go much beneath the surface. It wasn’t necessarily their best subject. I myself always preferred math and science. I was also pretty good in French grammar in elementary school but I hated it because, well, it was rule-based and I have a rebellious streak

But that’s typical of French Canadians. We know the rules well enough to understand just how far we can go at breaking them; it makes driving here particularly entertaining

 

[KP3243]

I am a younger Catholic and my mom found a copy of her Baltimore Catechism workbook that she had when she was younger and I wish I had been taught with a similar book. Now days Church School is taught with more emphasis on the individual then on the basics.

 

[Darran]

Yea, we weren’t given any sort of Catechesis at all. It was only untill high school in RE with a protestant teacher were we ever told that the Eucharist was the physical flesh of Christ, only in a mocking way.

That was a pretty reputable primary school too. Surely the Baltimore Catechism would have been better for us than nothing at all.

 

[MissRose73]

To be honest, I cannot recall much of what I was taught in weekly during school time religious education classes. I learned more from the books my mother often got for me that were Catholic in nature plus reading the few Catholic Bibles. I don’t recall going all that hardcore into various teachings of the faith in high school to prepare for Confirmation. Keep in mind, I was confirmed in 1990 as a teen, and have been Catholic all my life too.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

My point was more or less that in my French-equivalent-of-the-Baltimore-Catechism days, we rarely if ever heard about love and mercy.

Nowadays we hear about little else.

It’s time to put the ‘liberal reaction’ into the cupboard along with the old missals and set about, once again, with the serious business of saving souls.

This involves regular preaching that yes, you sir, in the pew there, can go to Hell. Quite easily.

 

[edwest2]

Ok, so since the late 1980’s we have had a new catechism. Have new texts been developed for use in the schools and parish programs? I didn’t notice it when my goddaughter was going through her religious education in the early 90’s but perhaps it was not yet complete or her parish had not adopted it. At 26 she is still nominally Catholic, but not so strong on doctrine.

Sadly, we seem to have lost the generation between the late 1960’s and the late 1980’s. It would be wonderful if we could somehow reclaim those folks.

We can, but we must start with a premise of hope. Look here:

catholicscomehome.org/

Look at the upper right side, and read the blue boxes.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Honestly, I didn’t see a whole lot of catechesis going on around here. We got a video speech saying that the HHS and the people behind it were bad, and we got an extra Mass on July 4th. There really wasn’t a lot of connection made between the protest and the Catechsim or the teachings of the Bible. The overwhelming impression was about current politics, not about the eternal teaching of the Church and WHY the HHS was an affront to it. A Catholic who only attended Mass weekly probably didn’t come away with a real understanding. You had to do work on your own and have a strong foundation in the faith to really get it.

Get the FAQs about HHS here:

stophhs.com/stop-hhs-faq/

Peace,
Ed

 

[archangel04]

BTW, we have a great catechism right now.

In every age we are tempted to believe the state of the Church is the worst. Don’t fall for it. There are tremendous catechists at work right now. I do not ever remember getting such good teaching in the past. Fr Barron, JP2, Pope Benedict, our bishops. Tthe teachers at our high school, who are very orthodox and real Christians living the faith also. Our pastoral associate who does all the baptism and confirmation and adult ed classes… An unbelievable witness to the faith. There are also some bad catechists I suppose. There have always been good and bad. We are not called to dwell on the bad.

Maybe where your at, and you are luck for that. We were thought how to be nice to everyone and how we should always give to the poor. We used these books which were so cheesy in nature in trying to teach us about God’s love for everyone. It’s true there is great information out there but one must actually go out looking for it. Had it not been for me getting off my lazy butt and start reading I would not know what I know now! Unfortunately in my experience many Catholics know squat about their faith.

 

[edwest2]

I’ve purchased copies of the Baltimore Catechism series, and found it very informative. I also have my mother’s grade 5 catechism book from her Catholic school years (Pre Vatican 2). I know that my catechism years were not very good as I was born in the 1970’s, and had my faith formation starting in grade 1. I learned more from reading the various Catechisms.

To be honest, we should have some form of ongoing religious education for adults too especially for those of my generation and those born right around the time Vatican 2 came into effect. I’ve read my sister’s kids religious education lessons, some of the stuff I know, other things I did not.

To everyone - mention this to your priest. Yes, adults need to be helped but we should not be passive.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

True, however-the whole point is that the majority of Catholics in the pews on any given weekend are NOT mature in their faith. For most of them, religious education stopped at Confirmation, and even that religious education may not have given them the foundation that would allow them to “feed themselves”

The worst problem to have is to not know what you don’t know, and I really think that a lot of Catholics who are still attending Mass and even more who have fallen away are in that place. They are ignorant of what they’re doing when they go to Mass and what they’re missing when they don’t.

I stayed away for 5 years and I KNEW what I was missing and what I had given up. However, I met a great many “recovering” Catholics during that time that had no idea what they had left. When we talked about the Church, they were surprised to hear some of the things I told them about the importance of the Bible in Liturgy and about the place of Mary and the Saints. Catholics raised and educated in the Church had the same prejudices about the faith as Protestants who had never set foot in a Catholic church.

Then we need to do something about that.

catholicscomehome.org/answers-scripture.php

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I would add: I think this guilt, legalism and excessive emphasis on sin, hell, and our depravity might have contributed to us throwing out the baby with the bathwater in the 60s; for those who did stay in the Church, excessive liberalism and rebelliousness after Vatican II, and for those who left… well we can see the results in the secular world today.

In the end, that “good old fashioned religion” may just be what people ran away from, and it was thus a contributor to our decline (at least in the Western world).

Trust in and love for God and trust in His love for us, I think are essential to our true inner conversion. They give our faith deep roots. Legalism and guilt simply results in a superficial faith. At least that’s what I found in my case, however I know I’m not alone!

A proper sense of guilt is necessary. We must be sensitive to sin.

Legalism? What’s that? All Church teaching is clear as to what we should and should not do. And if we are confused on any issue or point, we should ask our priest.

Peace,
Ed

 

[clem456]

The USCCB actually has a lengthy missive on adult education called “Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us” It is not catechesis itself, but deals with making adult formation a priority and implementing it. It is meant for pastoral councils and catechists etc and is quite dull reading, but it has a good point: if we are to give good catechesis we need to allocate the needed resources and do the actual catechesis properly.

old.usccb.org/education/ourhearts.htm

 

[edwest2]

But the wolves (snakes) have always been there to lead us astray. The problem we get into is when Catholics devour one another unjustly due to the differences between us. Look at what happened iin the garden:

**4 And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. 5 For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband, who did eat…
12 And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat. **

Temptation and pride have always been challenges to spirituality, in any culture, including the first culture, which God made perfect! And notice what both Adam and Eve do when confronted with their preference for the latest temptation…They both blame someone else!! Rather than looking at the sin in their own heart. Not much has changed.

I have to disagree. I’ve heard it said many times on Catholic Radio that over the last 40 years we have forgotten our faith because of being distracted by the world and dissidents inside the Church who did not want to help us but to encourage us to listen to them and not the Church. Liturgical dancing? That’s on the way out. The same with guitar Masses.

Yes, there have always been problems but too many Catholics are asking, "How did this (current cycle) happen? Catholics need to know this. They need to know why and they need to stop blaming themselves “entirely” regarding what went on. There were people inside and outside the Church who threw a wrench into the entire machinery and caused a lot of it to malfunction. They have names.

And we can’t sit on our hands, waiting for someone else to do it. We are all called to help out. All of us. I heard a priest on Catholic Radio say, “We can’t do all this by ourselves.” Get involved. Talk to your priest. Find local programs and evangelize outside the Church. Right now, certain groups want us to live our faith only in the Church building. That has got to stop. Right now.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Southwell]

I have to disagree. I’ve heard it said many times on Catholic Radio that over the last 40 years we have forgotten our faith because of being distracted by the world and dissidents inside the Church who did not want to help us but to encourage us to listen to them and not the Church. Liturgical dancing? That’s on the way out. The same with guitar Masses.

Yes, there have always been problems but too many Catholics are asking, "How did this (current cycle) happen? Catholics need to know this. They need to know why and they need to stop blaming themselves “entirely” regarding what went on. There were people inside and outside the Church who threw a wrench into the entire machinery and caused a lot of it to malfunction. They have names.

And we can’t sit on our hands, waiting for someone else to do it. We are all called to help out. All of us. I heard a priest on Catholic Radio say, “We can’t do all this by ourselves.” Get involved. Talk to your priest. Find local programs and evangelize outside the Church. Right now, certain groups want us to live our faith only in the Church building. That has got to stop. Right now.

Peace,
Ed

Here Here!

 

[clem456]

I have to disagree. I’ve heard it said many times on Catholic Radio that over the last 40 years we have forgotten our faith because of being distracted by the world and dissidents inside the Church who did not want to help us but to encourage us to listen to them and not the Church. Liturgical dancing? That’s on the way out. The same with guitar Masses.

Yes, there have always been problems but too many Catholics are asking, "How did this (current cycle) happen? Catholics need to know this. They need to know why and they need to stop blaming themselves “entirely” regarding what went on. There were people inside and outside the Church who threw a wrench into the entire machinery and caused a lot of it to malfunction. They have names.

And we can’t sit on our hands, waiting for someone else to do it. We are all called to help out. All of us. I heard a priest on Catholic Radio say, “We can’t do all this by ourselves.” Get involved. Talk to your priest. Find local programs and evangelize outside the Church. Right now, certain groups want us to live our faith only in the Church building. That has got to stop. Right now.

Peace,
Ed

I’m not sure where we disagree, other than I do not believe this is a 40 year problem, it is a forever problem starting in the garden. Starting in the garden, we have blamed everyone but us for the erosion of our relationship with God and each other. As another poster quoted from Paul, we have had sin and the wrangling over sin since the early Church and before. So our spiritual problems really can’t be blamed on dissidents from the 60’s. -I’m not saying there aren’t dissidents,- I’m saying they have always been there, and they have no power but that we allow them to have over us. We are human beings with free will.

And I agree with you 100%, we are called to go forth and evangelize as the Church directs us.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m not sure where we disagree, other than I do not believe this is a 40 year problem, it is a forever problem starting in the garden. Starting in the garden, we have blamed everyone but us for the erosion of our relationship with God and each other. As another poster quoted from Paul, we have had sin and the wrangling over sin since the early Church and before. So our spiritual problems really can’t be blamed on dissidents from the 60’s. -I’m not saying there aren’t dissidents,- I’m saying they have always been there, and they have no power but that we allow them to have over us. We are human beings with free will.

In fact if you read the early Church fathers, there was no shortage of heresies within the Church either starting from the get-go of the Church. I wonder if they called them “Liberals” in the day?

There really isn’t anything particularly special about this era other than the fact that our means of communication help us get into deep trouble faster.