Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

[OraLabora]

It’s interesting to me because while I had the BC in my school, friends of mine who grew up around the same time did not-and I can count on one hand how many of those folks are still Catholic. Most of them are either unchurched entirely, or they are now Protestants because that more closely images what they were taught. From that admittedly anecdotal evidence, I thought that perhaps my friends and I who had that firm foundation built by memorizing those facts of the faith stayed in the Church. I did take some time off, but it was only 5 years. Others in my age group “finished” after Confirmation. Then, I looked at my now 26 year old godchild, who still considers herself Catholic and occasionally goes to Mass, but despite my best efforts is a nominal Catholic. Her religious education was severely lacking in my eyes, and since I’m only the godmother, I didn’t have as much influence as I had hoped. Her father is Catholic, but rarely attends Church-another product of the post-BC era.

I think most of us will have anecdotal evidence and an experience very particular to their locale. At the time I learned (and later forgot…) the Quebec equivalent to the BC, I lived in a province that was 90% or so Catholic and virtually all of us practiced the faith to some degree or other. We were taught in the public Catholic school system (public schools in Quebec at the time were either Catholic or Protestant, by constitutional guarantee). We all had the same catechism which is pretty much the French equivalent to the BC.

Virtually this entire generation ended up unchurched. I’d be surprised if more than 20% of nominal Catholics today go to church every Sunday.

Admittedly there were other social reasons: the government up until the early 60s was tight with the church, and it was a very corrupt government. People were fed up with the Church, and with the bishops. It was also a very Jansenist church with another similar movement within it, Lacouturisme. Jansenism emphasizes mankind’s depravity and evil. Families were compelled to have many children; when the priest made his annual visit to your home, if your wife wasn’t pregnant or hadn’t just given birth you were asked what was wrong and were lectured on your duties. This is true. Most French Quebec families at that time had more than 10 children, sometimes as many as 15. Necessarily, this meant a life of material poverty and hardship for many, and certainly lack of educational opportunities; education was not free, and families couldn’t afford to educate all kids. Women were basically baby factories.

Basically the people rebelled. Myself included. The local Church did need a shake-up. The Church today here, is very different. Some say now too liberal… that’s what happens with pendulum swings. There are pockets of orthodoxy though, including the Benedictine abbey to which I’m associated as a secular oblate, but they are warm, welcoming and have no traces of Jansenism.

So the social conditions here were very particular. Still, the BC-equivalent did nothing to keep us in the Church.

 

[Brooklyn]

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t downplay the importance of catechesis. As I noted I self-catechized. The discussion centers on the Baltimore Catechism, and its “challenge-and-response” rote-learning style. It is that style of catechesis that I am not in agreement with. It didn’t work for me, and I know it didn’t work for many others because my entire generation, formed with that type of catechesis, was essentially lost except for a few trickling home. In my case I had to relearn everything as I didn’t retain it.

As for emotion: I was educated and worked as a scientist and now as an IT analyst in the sunset years of my career. Logic plays a very important role for me. However, I was masking my emotions. God gave us both, intellect and emotions. We have to learn to keep both in balance. All intellect, or all emotion, is not good though we all exist at various points on the scale. I’ve known too many people who suppress their emotions and end up very miserable as a result, even though on the surface they are nearly perfect Catholics (I knew a monk like that and he left the monastery).

I don’t know where this notion comes from that “one size fits all” when it comes to human development. I see Human Resources departments make the same mistake, assuming that everyone comes from the same cookie-cutter, and if they don’t, by God they’ll force them to fit by brainwashing them to the “corporate culture”. One size does not fit all. One has to tailor the message to include everyone.

There hope that’s brief enough

Yes, thank you.

So you do see the importance of catechesis. I am sincerely glad to hear that. And I’ll agree with you that one size does not fit all. Obviously as a scientist, you may find the BC too simplistic. But it is a wonderful tool for many of the rest of us. So just as I won’t push it on you, I don’t think you should say it is no good for anyone else.

I think your assessment of the BC is rather harsh. I also was trained in the BC and still went off the deep end. But the fact is I still had that knowledge in my mind, and one day it came back to me and helped bring me back to the Church.

You have a right to your opinion, but as you say, one size does not fit all. What is right for you may not be right for others. I personally think memorization is a wonderful tool. Don’t you ever memorize prayers? Don’t you think that is a good thing? So why is memorizing the dogma of the Church such a bad thing?

Something to think about.

 

[Brooklyn]

38 years away from the Lord and His Church?!

That is so very sad.

That’s an interesting reaction. You’re not happy for me at all that I came back to the Church? Just sadness that I was gone? Wow.

All children will go through a period of rebellion. But hopefully for many Christian children, this will not mean rejecting their faith. I can honestly say that my husband and I have never been “away” from the Lord. And we know plenty of people who never have fallen away.

I think that the way we were catechized as children and teenagers helped us to stay close to God. We were not Catholic. We were raised evangelical Protestant (Conference Baptist for me, Assemblies of God for my husband.) **Our upbringing emphasized a lot of BIble teaching, good leaders who truly lived their faith outside of the church doors, and lots of service opportunities. **

I think this model of catechesis is a good one, and I think that Catholic parishes should consider using it if they don’t already. It’s a three-legged stool, very stable–knowledge, example, and service. If you study the Gospels, you will see that this is how Jesus formed His disciples. In fact, when my husband and I were growing up, our churches called it “discipling” rather than “catechesis,” and I think that this word is much better to give parents and church leaders an idea of what is needed to bring up a child in such a way that they don’t depart from it.

If you just teach facts and figures (the Bible, a Catechism, a textbook, etc.), kids will certainly learn, but it won’t mean much to them, as we see from testimonies from Brooklyn, OraLabora, and others in this thread. The kids will fall away because Christianity is just another “school subject” to them.

If you just do role-modeling, then the kids will get a certainly sense of what being a Christian means in real life, but they won’t have any knowledge to back up their faith and thus will get confused and fall away when someone (e.g., a knowledgeable Protestant!) questions their beliefs.

If you just do service projects, then Christianity is no different than a community volunteer organization. Kids will eventually give it up for a more appealing volunteer organization without a list of what they see as “cumbersome rules.”

A side note for those involved with youth work in the Church:
My husband and I started dating when we were fifteen, and our WISE church leaders encouraged us to serve God TOGETHER–we were assistants in teaching Vacation Bible School, and we did a lot of music together in the church. This was so incredibly wise–I just can’t say enough good about these teachers–nowadays, many evangelical Protestant teachers are discouraging young dating couples from even sitting together in church, let alone working together for Him and His people. This is foolishness, and IMO, causes young people to become disillusioned with Christianity and fall away.

Yes, we’ve been through hard times, including being kicked out of our Protestant church and wandering about for a few years without any church (we attended Mass during this time in obedience to the Lord’s command to not forsake assembling ourselves with other Christians). But we’ve never turned away from God, and we’ve always strived to remain in a Christian church.

I’m sorry you don’t think I measure up to your standards.

I’m still waiting, Cat, for a response to my other posts.

 

[Brooklyn]

Forgive me if I have failed to answer your posts.

What do you want me to say? That the Church has problems? Of course She does. I know that. I would be foolish to deny it.

Do you want me to say that the Church should chuck all of Her current teaching methods and return to what was done 50 years ago? I will NOT say that. I will trust the bishops and the pope to tell the Church what to teach and how to teach it. I will NOT presume to tell these illustrious servants of Christ what to do!

I do not see the Church the way you apparently see it. I don’t think I ever will, because to me and my husband, the Church is our beacon, our “saving place.”

My husband and I spent the first 47 years of our lives in evangelical Protestant churches, and we loved it all. We thought we knew the truth. We certainly did know Jesus Christ, and learned to love Him. We worked hard, and were in the church or involved with some church project 5-6 days/evenings per week. We LOVED our friends in our churches, and met many wonderful people, including missionaries who had been tortured for their faith.

We were involved in many successful ministries over the decades, and could have easily been finalists for “Evangelicals of Evangelicals.” Ever watch the Simpsons on TV? We were like Ned Flanders–that was us!

But then an unbelievable (but true) series of occurrences led to us being ousted from our church (during a tribunal that was called by our church).

We went from being happy and busy 7 days a week in church life to NOTHING. For the first time in decades, since we were toddlers, we were actually home on Wednesday nights and turned on the television.

We had nothing, no lives. We still had our faith in Jesus. We trusted Him only, but no man or woman after the horrible way we had been mistreated by people we thought were good.

We didn’t even trust the Bible anymore. I stopped reading it–this was unthinkable, but I could no longer trust a book that had been used to justify treating me and my husband and our daughters with such cruelty. At this point in my life, I believe that the doctrine of sola Scriptura was created by Satan himself, and is a doctrine of hell.

To make a long story short, we found the Catholic Church–or should I say, SHE found us. Praise God forever!

This dear Church, the True Church of Jesus Christ, became a beautiful castle to us after our scourging in the evangelical Protestant world. It truly was a Light in a very very dark place.

Brooklyn, maybe for you, the Church is a miserable place. But not to us. Yes, of course we recognize that the Church has problems and yes, we have met some pretty sorry Catholics.

But we also recognize that this Church IS and ALWAYS WILL BE the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Jesus still works through the Catholic Church and He always will.

We have also met so many MANY good and faithful Catholics in our parish and in other parishes–we simply can’t look at the Church of Christ with such a gloomy outlook as you have. To us, She is glorious.

Sorry, Cat, I didn’t see this post right away.

The Church is hardly a miserable place for me. You are most definitely putting words in mouth. I love the church more than life itself. I try to go Mass almost every day. The Church is the only place in which I find sanity and peace of mind. I hope I would would be willing to die for this Church. It was the church I was born into and the one I hope to die in. But that doesn’t mean I turn a blind eye to many serious problems plaguing the Church.

If you had a child that was involved in a very dangerous life style - drugs, sex, whatever - would you just continue proclaiming how wonderful your family is and ignore that one child who is slowly killing himself? It seems to me that is exactly what you are doing with the Church.

You have made some very insulting and unfounded remarks concerning me. I really don’t think we have much more to discuss.

 

[Brooklyn]

I never jumped down your throat. I’m sorry you think that.

-Tim-

Just to refresh your memory:

Please don’t tell us what hell is like.

There are people on these forums who have had their only child die of cancer and had to pick out a coffin and burial plot two weeks before the child was even dead, while the child was at home with a hospice nurse.

There are people here who were addicted to pot, cocaine, smack, porn, cigarettes and gambling for decades - twenty or thirty years. They tried everything to stop, but couldnt help themselves, and it completely wrecked their lives and the lives of everyone they touched for decades.

There are people on these forums who have had perfect suburban lifestyles and one day the husband or wife announced that they were leaving, moving in with someone else, and left them to raise the kids by themselves. I know a guy who one week after he was diagnosed with lymphoma, his wife announced she was lesbian, took their son and moved in with another woman. She had already emptied the bank account, cashed in the 401k and bought a Range Rover.

My confrimation sponsor’s father and brother were tied up and shot in the back of the head execution style in a random home invasion. Every five years she travels from Atlanta to Florida, walks through a line of news reporters with their cameras, and lives it all again as she testifies at their parole hearings.

There is a man here on CAF whom we all know who buried his wife and child on the same day, and walked out of the Church behind the two caskets holding the hands of his other two children.

Somewhere right now is a 60 year old lying awake in a federal penitentiary, thinking about the crime he committed 40 years ago, knowing that he will never get out, that he will die in jail.

Somewhere right now, in a hospital room at Memorial Sloan Kettering or Cleveland Clinic or St. Jude Medical Center, a mother and father are watching the heart rate of their daughter drop from 70 to 40 as her breathing gets shallower and shallower. Tonight the husband will take his wife home with an empty car seat in the back of the car. They will wake up tomorrow and take the pictures of their daughter off the mantle, put them in a box, and bring them to the funeral home for the funeral.

Please don’t tell us what hell is like. Please don’t speak about seperation from God and mercy and the worst conditions imaginable on earth. Please don’t do that. It’s extremely insulting when you do that.

I am going to pray tonight that you never experience any of these things.

-Tim-

Would you appreciate if someone wrote that when all you are trying to do is point out the teaching of the Church, that no suffering on this earth can begin to compare with the suffering in hell, and that despite whatever horrible tragedies we have to face, God is always there, but that he is never present in hell? That is the point I was trying to make, and the above is the response you gave me, telling me I was being insensitive and insulting.

 

[Jeanne_S]

My real concern is that we have generations of Catholics that seem to know very little about the faith. It seems pretty obvious that what we are doing isn’t working.

I truly believe that it was my religious education that brought me back to the Church. That strong foundation sticks with you no matter what happens in life

Agreed! Pope Benedict has declared this the year of faith. I parish inmy neighborhood will be offering classes on the catechism titled"The Four Pillars". It is broken up into four parts runs from Sept through May and picking up again in Sept of next year for a month. I am really looking forward to this study.

 

[OraLabora]

Yes, thank you.

So you do see the importance of catechesis. I am sincerely glad to hear that. And I’ll agree with you that one size does not fit all. Obviously as a scientist, you may find the BC too simplistic. But it is a wonderful tool for many of the rest of us. So just as I won’t push it on you, I don’t think you should say it is no good for anyone else.

I think your assessment of the BC is rather harsh. I also was trained in the BC and still went off the deep end. But the fact is I still had that knowledge in my mind, and one day it came back to me and helped bring me back to the Church.

You have a right to your opinion, but as you say, one size does not fit all. What is right for you may not be right for others. I personally think memorization is a wonderful tool. Don’t you ever memorize prayers? Don’t you think that is a good thing? So why is memorizing the dogma of the Church such a bad thing?

Something to think about.

I think though, if we contemplate the use of the BC for children today, the post by Brother JR on the SSPX thread concerning the BC is relevant.

I’m inclined to agree with him. It’s an outdated tool that may have served its purpose in its time, but it isn’t likely to be re-implemented by the Church anytime soon at least in the Western world.

Do I memorize? Of course, I can chant everyone of the Marian antiphons after Compline in Latin from memory, including the Salve Regina, Alma Redemptorist and Ave Maria Caelorum on the solemn tones. I can recite the Confiteor, and the Pater in Latin. I have many Latin antiphons with their melodies in my memory, ditto many psalm verses in Latin and French, from doing the LoTH every day.

I firmly believe that memory needs to be exercised like any part of the body: use it or lose it. What I don’t agree with is that rote challenge-response is a particularly effective tool to memorize for many people. It’s certainly not how I memorized prayers, dogma and chants; for dogma, it doesn’t suffice for me to simply memorize them, I need to understand and analyze them; I’m highly analytical (which would explain why I work as an analyst), and “it is so because the Church says so” never works with me.

I spend a lot of time in my car commuting, and often rehearse the chants from my iPhone plugged into the car’s radio but I also need to be able to picture the notes in my mind so I have to have studied visually first.

Like Brother JR’s description in the post I linked to, I am a highly visual person. When I travel to an unusual destination and don’t have a GPS handy, I look at the map and visually memorize it. Similarly for learning chants, I picture the notes in my head as I mentioned above.

Modern educational methods have to be flexible and adaptable to various learning styles. The BC did assume that “one size fits all” back in the day. Those for whom those teaching methods were sub-optimal, would lose out. I can’t remember a thing from my catechism classes. Not a thing. It clearly didn’t work for me. It did for you; when you returned after 38 years you still remembered it. When I returned after 22 years, I’d forgotten it all and I had to relearn it, on my own terms.

I honestly think there’s no going back. We need to instead look forward and adapt our teaching methods in order to capture the interest of over-stimulated kids. The BC just isn’t going to cut it.

 

[Brooklyn]

I think though, if we contemplate the use of the BC for children today, the post by Brother JR on the SSPX thread concerning the BC is relevant.

I’m inclined to agree with him. It’s an outdated tool that may have served its purpose in its time, but it isn’t likely to be re-implemented by the Church anytime soon at least in the Western world.

Do I memorize? Of course, I can chant everyone of the Marian antiphons after Compline in Latin from memory, including the Salve Regina, Alma Redemptorist and Ave Maria Caelorum on the solemn tones. I can recite the Confiteor, and the Pater in Latin. I have many Latin antiphons with their melodies in my memory, ditto many psalm verses in Latin and French, from doing the LoTH every day.

I firmly believe that memory needs to be exercised like any part of the body: use it or lose it. What I don’t agree with is that rote challenge-response is a particularly effective tool to memorize for many people. It’s certainly not how I memorized prayers, dogma and chants; for dogma, it doesn’t suffice for me to simply memorize them, I need to understand and analyze them; I’m highly analytical (which would explain why I work as an analyst), and “it is so because the Church says so” never works with me.

I spend a lot of time in my car commuting, and often rehearse the chants from my iPhone plugged into the car’s radio but I also need to be able to picture the notes in my mind so I have to have studied visually first.

Like Brother JR’s description in the post I linked to, I am a highly visual person. When I travel to an unusual destination and don’t have a GPS handy, I look at the map and visually memorize it. Similarly for learning chants, I picture the notes in my head as I mentioned above.

Modern educational methods have to be flexible and adaptable to various learning styles. The BC did assume that “one size fits all” back in the day. Those for whom those teaching methods were sub-optimal, would lose out. I can’t remember a thing from my catechism classes. Not a thing. It clearly didn’t work for me. It did for you; when you returned after 38 years you still remembered it. When I returned after 22 years, I’d forgotten it all and I had to relearn it, on my own terms.

I honestly think there’s no going back. We need to instead look forward and adapt our teaching methods in order to capture the interest of over-stimulated kids. The BC just isn’t going to cut it.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Others are entitled to disagree, and thankfully, anyone who wants to ue the BC is free to do so. I think the BC “cuts it” just fine, as do many good and devout Catholics.

You said in a previous post that you don’t like the memorization that is involved in the BC because it doesn’t work, and yet you say you use memorization all the time.

Very confusing.

 

[Cat]

Please don’t walk away from our discussion. Please stay with the discussion and don’t walk away just because we are failing to communicate. Stick around and work through the communication difficulties. Walking away is the easy way out. Don’t take the easy way. Too many people do that.

You would do me an invaluable favor by taking the time to point out specifically where I have insulted you. I certainly had no intention of insulting you, and if I did, I’m very very sorry. I sincerely and truly wish to make amends. I don’t wish to get in trouble on Catholic Answers Forums for insulting fellow posters, and I don’t wish to have an insulting attitude or words for ANYONE, either online or in real life. I would like to cultivate kindness and charity in my words and thoughts. Please help me by referring me to the sentences in my posts that are insulting to you so that I can avoid making such rude remarks in the future. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me in this way.

I apologize for my lack of mental acumen, but I just spent a half hour re-reading this entire thread, and I must have Olympic fog in my brain, because just I’m not seeing what you are expecting me to respond to.

In post #236, you made the comment that the Church is in deep spiritual crisis. This is what you said: “You, Cat, did not answer my posts at all. When you are ready to address the specific issues that I brought up in my post to you, I will answer you.”

What are you talking about specifically? Would you be so kind as to clarify exactly what you want me to respond to? Thank you.

If you want me to respond to your posts about the Church in crisis, I have, several times. In post #253, this is what I said: “What do you want me to say? That the Church has problems? Of course She does. I know that. I would be foolish to deny it.”

I have boldfaced my sentence above because I want to make it very clear to you that I am not denying that the Church has problems.

But I do deny that the Church is “in crisis”, as you phrase it. I have not yet heard my bishop or the pope make this statement, and until I do, I will not run ahead of them.

And I also have stated several times, and I will state it again, that I think that it is more useful for us to go with the positives rather than wallowing in the negatives of our Church.

In Post #258, you make the following statement: “The Church is hardly a miserable place for me. You are most definitely putting words in mouth.”

I appreciate you clarifying that for you personally, the Church is hardly a miserable place. That is certainly encouraging and uplifting to know.

But upon reviewing this thread, I found the following posts where you list many things that are wrong with the Church : #199, #205, #206, #223, #227, and #236. So perhaps this will help to you see why I [incorrectly] assumed that you find the Church a miserable place.

 

[Brooklyn]

Please don’t walk away from our discussion. Please stay with the discussion and don’t walk away just because we are failing to communicate. Stick around and work through the communication difficulties. Walking away is the easy way out. Don’t take the easy way. Too many people do that.

 

[Cat]

If you had a child that was involved in a very dangerous life style - drugs, sex, whatever - would you just continue proclaiming how wonderful your family is and ignore that one child who is slowly killing himself? It seems to me that is exactly what you are doing with the Church.

This is an interesting question.

My first response is that Holy Mother Church is not my child. I am HER child.

So the analogy is somewhat difficult for me. But I’ll try to answer the question, which is a good one.

I have raised two daughters, and thankfully, neither of them were ever involved in a dangerous life style. So it’s difficult for me to know exactly how I would handle this situation. I’m sure others have more expertise than I do.

However, we do have brewing crisis of sorts in our extended family–a child is definitely headed down a very dangerous path. I don’t want to discuss details, but suffice it to say that the child is not even a teenager yet, but has already had a somewhat lengthy stay in an institution that attempted to help with the mental and emotional problems. Just a few weeks ago, the parents had to call the police to protect themselves from this young child.

So it’s pretty bad, and my husband and I grieve in our souls wondering how this whole awful mess will turn out and what will become of this poor child and the family, especially the parents and siblings that are actually living in the house with the child.

So, yes, I do recognize that there is a real and serious problem. I don’t deny it, or pretend that everything is shining and happy.

But at the same time, I continue to marvel at how wonderful our family is, and to extol all the good things about our family.

I do not dwell on this one child who is going through such torment and who is breaking the hearts of the parents and all the rest of us.

There is no point in dwelling on it and allowing it to darken my attitude towards my entire family and sour my soul and destroy my peace. Just because there is one “bad” child doesn’t make everyone else in the family “bad.”

There is not a lot that I can do in the situation. But rather than being dismal and discouraged about the child, I take action in whatever way I can. My main response and the one that I think will be the most helpful is to pray.

I make it clear to the parents that my husband and I are willing to help if we can, but we also make it clear that we are not willing to become a permanent or long-term “shelter” for this child–we do not have the knowledge in how to deal with mental illness, which is what I am convinced is happening here. Also, we don’t wish to destroy our marriage trying to help a family in crisis.

However, if we were asked to become involved with the therapy sessions in order to learn more about how to help the child, we would certainly do so willingly

Also, in an emergency (e.g., should the child run away and show up on our doorstep), we would certainly take care of the child. We would also immediately call the local mental health crisis hotline and ask unashamedly for any help we could get because we have seen what this child is capable of and frankly, I would be afraid to be in the house alone with the child during the night. I would ask for help.

At this point, it is unlikely that we will be asked to step in. We are Catholic, and this particular family believes that Catholicism is a false religion/cult. They are very careful not to allow their children to be alone with us, and I think it is doubtful that they will ever trust us with their children for any extended length of time.

Do you see what I’m getting at? We do not deny in any way that this is a very serious crisis in the family. We don’t pretend that everything is fine.

But we don’t dwell on it or fret about it, because there is little we can do beyond praying.

And this is how I think we should handle the problems that Holy Mother Church is currently experiencing.

There is little most of us can do, and so there is no use in fretting or stewing or worrying, and there is even less use in telling people all about the “crisis”, especially people that we don’t know well. I wouldn’t discuss the details of our family situation with this unfortunate child with strangers. I wouldn’t list all the flaws and describe all the mistakes that the parents have made (my husband and I believe that certain mistakes have contributed to the child’s difficulties, but we also believe that there is a mental/emotional illness).

I do think it makes good sense to do whatever we can to help Holy Mother Church IF we are given the opportunity. So if you, Brooklyn, are in a situation where you can suggest using the Baltimore Catechism in a teaching setting and then work to actually teach the BC, or perhaps contribute financially to make sure that everyone has a copy, I think that would be wonderful!

I think that any time any of us are led to become involved with our local parish, we should step up and do what we can to help.

I think this means that we should give of our resources, including and especially our financial resources, as much as we can. I will be the first to admit, shamefully, that my husband and I do not tithe 10% or anywhere near it, but we do try to be generous with our local parish and give as much money as we can, and also give our time when we are asked to help out with a ministry.

But for the most part, there is not much that most of us can do to “fix” the problems in the Catholic Church other than doing our best to be faithful to Christ and His Church, to avail ourselves of the Sacraments as often as possible, to obey the precepts of the Church, to strive to be holy in all that we say and do and think, and to give of ourselves and our resources sacrificially.

I hope this post is helpful and encouraging. Pray for the child in our family that is so desperately in need of green pastures and still waters.

 

[TrueLight]

I honestly think there’s no going back. We need to instead look forward and adapt our teaching methods in order to capture the interest of over-stimulated kids. The BC just isn’t going to cut it.

I remembering memorizing bible verses as an Evangelical all through my childhood, teen years and early adulthood. Of course along with that, we had Bible study and good sermons.

As a lot of people do, there was a time that I did fall away from the faith, but I never forgot those verses. When the Evil One would try to tempt me, I would quote Bible verses.

One verse that always stuck with me was Isaiah 54:17: “No weapon formed against you shall prosper.” This verse would be a great consolation to me whenever haters would try to sabotage my work on my job. God would bring to my remembrance all of those memorized verses. He still does.

I obviously didn’t grow up on the Baltimore Catechism.

It is so important that we know our faith.

I was looking at the Baltimore Catechism online and saw this section on Baptism:

1. What is the duty of a godparent after Baptism?

The duty of a godparent after Baptism is to see that the child is brought up a good Catholic, if this is not done by the parents.
329. Who should be chosen as godparents for Baptism?

Only Catholics who know their faith and live up to the duties of their religion should be chosen as godparents for Baptism.

Clear and to the point. Should a Catholic not know such tenets of his faith from childhood?

Look at this part on Confession. How many confession questions do we get on CAF?

1. Before entering the confessional, how should we prepare ourselves for a good confession?

Before entering the confessional, we should prepare ourselves for a good confession by taking sufficient time not only to examine our conscience but, especially, to excite in our hearts sincere sorrow for our sins and a firm purpose not to commit them again.
427. How should we begin our confession?

We should begin our confession in this manner: Entering the confessional, we kneel, and making the sign of the cross we say to the priest: “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned”; and then we tell how long it has been since our last confession.
428. After telling the time of our last confession, what do we confess?

After telling the time of our last confession, if we have committed any mortal sins since that time we must confess them, and also any that we have forgotten in previous confessions, telling the nature and number of each; we may also confess any venial sins we wish to mention.
429. What should we do if we cannot remember the exact number of our mortal sins?

If we cannot remember the exact number of our mortal sins, we should tell the number as nearly as possible, or say how often we have committed the sins in a day, a week, a month, or a year.
430. What should we do when we have committed no mortal sin since our last confession?

When we have committed no mortal sin since our last confession, we should confess our venial sins or some sin told in a previous confession, for which we are again sorry, in order that the priest may give us absolution.

Remember not the sins of my youth nor my offenses. According to thy mercy remember thou me, for thy goodness’ sake. (Psalm 24:7)
431. How should we end our confession?

We should end our confession by saying: “I am sorry for these and all the sins of my past life, especially for …”; and then it is well to tell one or several of the sins which we have previously confessed and for which we are particularly sorry.
432. What should we do after confessing our sins?

After confessing our sins, we should answer truthfully any question the priest asks, seek advice if we feel that we need any, listen carefully to the spiritual instruction and counsel of the priest, and accept the penance he gives us.
433. What should we do when the priest is giving us absolution?

When the priest is giving us absolution, we should say from our heart the act of contrition in a tone to be heard by him.
434. What should we do after leaving the confessional?

After leaving the confessional we should return thanks to God for the sacrament we have received, beg Our Lord to supply for the imperfections of our confession, and promptly and devoutly perform our penance.

These are basic tenets of the faith that all Catholic should know. As they learn them, they can do more research, but these are the basics.

Even in this modern world, kids continue to memorize verses in Evangelical circles. Why do we have to be the ones always adapting and conforming to the rest of the world. How has it helped us?

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Getting back to the OP:

Simply put, it would seem the Baltimore Catechism is not in use (as much) simply because it is not the catechism being promoted heavily. The Catechsim of the Catholic Church is in use in most places; it was progulmated by a Pope, and has been endorsed and promoted by clergy of all levels. Whereas, back in the day, the Baltimore Catechsim was what was popularly promoted.

As to the intervening years between the two, your guess is as a good as mine as to why the BC wasn’t used. But, then again, the normal methods of catechesis across all of Christianity was/has been thrown up in the air over the past approximately 30 years.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I was away from the Church for 38 years. I think one of reasons I found my way back is because I was so well catechized through the Baltimore Catechism when I was young. As a child, I was thoroughly grounded in my faith. When I fell away as a young adult, I still had that foundation which helped bring me back in later years.

I snipped this out of your longer reply, because I want to address this comment.
Obviously, the BC didn’t help you, because you left the Church for 38 years.
You may have found that all that stuff you memorized all came back to you, and helped you as you came back to the church, but the claim the at the BC is the “best” way to teach the faith is, at least IMHO, disproved with this comment.

And, from personal experience, most of the people I know who grew up being catechised with the BC, may know “fact”, but they have no idea how to take those facts and build a relationship with God.

I am not against the use of the BC for young children, but I do think that it should not be the only tool used. I have only briefly thumbed through the ‘YouCat’, and I really like they way it is laid out, much better, I would say than the BC. And for adults, I really like the US Catholic Catholic Catechism for Adults. Again the lay out, and the practical applications for the faith that it presents, IMHO, are a much better way to teach than rote memorization.

 

[Melchior_1]

IMHO, are a much better way to teach than rote memorization.

This is an interesting point. In addition to now having more awareness about mental illnesses that affect the memory (ADHD & Depression, to name two), we’re also contending with social media, handheld devices, and television shows designed to cater to those with no attention span. I see high quality shows with outstanding character work and myth arcs, but shows that are pure drivel get the ratings as kids (and adults too) these days don’t want to invest into something that doesn’t hold their attention and stimulate them.

“Jolt TV”, it’s called. Just look at Sesame Street.

 

[OraLabora]

You said in a previous post that you don’t like the memorization that is involved in the BC because it doesn’t work, and yet you say you use memorization all the time.

Very confusing.

Yes, but not by the same methods as the BC!!! I don’t understand why you can’t get that not everybody memorizes well by that method!

 

[TimothyH]

I remembering memorizing bible verses as an Evangelical all through my childhood, teen years and early adulthood. Of course along with that, we had Bible study and good sermons.

As a lot of people do, there was a time that I did fall away from the faith, but I never forgot those verses. When the Evil One would try to tempt me, I would quote Bible verses.

One verse that always stuck with me was Isaiah 54:17: “No weapon formed against you shall prosper.” This verse would be a great consolation to me whenever haters would try to sabotage my work on my job. God would bring to my remembrance all of those memorized verses. He still does.

I obviously didn’t grow up on the Baltimore Catechism.

It is so important that we know our faith.

I was looking at the Baltimore Catechism online and saw this section on Baptism:

Clear and to the point. Should a Catholic not know such tenets of his faith from childhood?

Look at this part on Confession. How many confession questions do we get on CAF?

These are basic tenets of the faith that all Catholic should know. As they learn them, they can do more research, but these are the basics.

Even in this modern world, kids continue to memorize verses in Evangelical circles. Why do we have to be the ones always adapting and conforming to the rest of the world. How has it helped us?

You know, I never really ever looked at the Baltimore Catechism. I was careful not to comment on it specifically for just that reason and so don’t really understand how anyone says that I could be against it, but putting that aside for a moment, I can see how it would be a good tool for some.

The author of Hebrews writes about spiritual maturity.

About this we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, for you have become sluggish in hearing. Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, [and] not solid food. Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil. (Hebrews 5:11-14)

What is interesting to me about this passage is the last sentance, about the discernment of spirits which comes from maturity.

Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, instruction about baptisms and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And we shall do this, if only God permits. (Hebrews 6:1-3)

The author addresses catechesis right here.

There is obviously a place for better catechesis in our church - I am not aware of making any statements otherwise and retract them if I did - but the author of Hebrews goes on to speak about “Tasting heavenly gifts”, actually experiencing salvation or a foretaste of it through the presence of the Holy Spirit, and for these, basic catechesis should be left behind - solid food vs spiritual milk as the author puts it.

2 Peter 1:3-4 is a spectacular example of what I am talking about.

-Tim-

 

[Seeker1961]

I agree, but the point is that we have a generation or more that doesn’t have the basics. Before you can move beyond milk, you have to have had milk.

 

[Brooklyn]

I snipped this out of your longer reply, because I want to address this comment.
Obviously, the BC didn’t help you, because you left the Church for 38 years.
You may have found that all that stuff you memorized all came back to you, and helped you as you came back to the church, but the claim the at the BC is the “best” way to teach the faith is, at least IMHO, disproved with this comment.

And the fact that I came back means nothing?? Yes, I left the Church for 38 years, but I did not leave God. I do regret those years away from the church, of course, but I also missed a lot of bad things that went on at that time, and I don’t regret that. I was very devout as a child, going to confession almost every week. How many kids ever go to confession anymore unless they’re forced to? Even though I did not stay a devout Catholic, I still lived a “good” life as the world defines it, staying on the straight and narrow as far as the world is concerned, and I think much of that is due to what I learned as a child.

So, please, enough with the snide remarks.

Yes, but not by the same methods as the BC!!! I don’t understand why you can’t get that not everybody memorizes well by that method!

I’m sorry, but your comments still make no sense to me. Memorization is memorization. I don’t understand how memorizing from the BC is different than memorizing anything else.

I agree, but the point is that we have a generation or more that doesn’t have the basics. Before you can move beyond milk, you have to have had milk.

I love your comments. They make so much sense!

 

[TimothyH]

I agree, but the point is that we have a generation or more that doesn’t have the basics. Before you can move beyond milk, you have to have had milk.

That’s a pretty big generalization - a whole generation or more - and I’m not sure I see it, at least not from where I sit.

There are people repenting all of the time. The Catholic Church will pass the Southern Baptists here in North Georgia in terms of number of members within five or six years. That’s not happening because people don’t understand Catholicism.

Having grown up in New York, I know that there is far fewer challenges to the faith in the big northern cities than there is here down south. In New York you were either mostly Catholic or Jewish, and someone in your family was probably married to a Jew. Here in the deep south Catholics are challenged much more openly and you either know your faith or you are converted. They’ll convert you before you get out of high school.

Maybe it is different elsewhere. I really don’t know. It probably is. But people are repenting all of the time and I see the Church growing, not shrinking, and the parking lots packed, and that isn’t happening because people don’t understand what the Eucharist is about.

If there is a whole lost generation, then it is most likely the influx of devout hispanics into the US who are going to save the Church from itself rather than anything we do for ourselves.

-Tim-