Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

[maryjk]

I’m sorry, but your comments still make no sense to me. Memorization is memorization. I don’t understand how memorizing from the BC is different than memorizing anything else.

Because people don’t memorize the catechism, now.

Before we got off topic talking about Hell and who talks about it and who doesn’t, we were talking about memorizing the BC. I said then, my mom who went through 8 years of Catholic school still didn’t know a lot about the Church. She could quote the BC all day long, but being able to quote it is different than knowing it.

A question, did people memorize all of the books? One through 4? Or did they stop at 2 or 3?

 

[TimothyH]

I’m trying to be pleasant, and not insulting in any way.

If I come across that way to anyone, please know that it is because I am unable to express my thoughts the way I want, and not because I wish to insult anyone.

If I do insult someone, know that it is inadvertant and because I am a selfish fool.

-Tim-

 

[Seeker1961]

That’s a pretty big generalization - a whole generation or more - and I’m not sure I see it, at least not from where I sit.

There are people repenting all of the time. The Catholic Church will pass the Southern Baptists here in North Georgia in terms of number of members within five or six years. That’s not happening because people don’t understand Catholicism.

Having grown up in New York, I know that there is far fewer challenges to the faith in the big northern cities than there is here down south. In New York you were either mostly Catholic or Jewish, and someone in your family was probably married to a Jew. Here in the deep south Catholics are challenged much more openly and you either know your faith or you are converted. They’ll convert you before you get out of high school.

Maybe it is different elsewhere. I really don’t know. It probably is. But people are repenting all of the time and I see the Church growing, not shrinking, and the parking lots packed, and that isn’t happening because people don’t understand what the Eucharist is about.

If there is a whole lost generation, then it is most likely the influx of devout hispanics into the US who are going to save the Church from itself rather than anything we do for ourselves.

-Tim-

In July of this year, Gallup published a study that showed that all organized religion in the US was in decline, but the Catholic church had a steeper decline. It supported what I had already seen in my friends and family-people simply walking away from the Church and not really understanding what it was they were giving up. I spent five years away myself, but what drew me back was that I DID know what I was missing. I went to a non-denominational church that was full of “recovering Catholics” that had no real idea what they were recovering from when you talked to them. I am grateful to God for that time away because He showed me quite plainly why I was a Catholic and what the truth really was.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I am sorry if you think it was a “snide” remark, that was not how it was intended. It was actually a legitimate question, I believe.

You and others who are “champions” of the BC make it sound as though it will “solve all the problems of the Church” to go back to it, yet my experience tells me different.

And obviously, so does your experience.

And where did you get the idea that coming back means nothing to me. Did I say that?
I myself am a revert, after being gone for nearly 20 years. The BC had no place in my life before I left, and I do not find it usefull now, but if someone does, that is fine. I have never said, nor do I believe anyone here has said that is should never be used. What I am saying is that there are other ways to catechize, and I do not see the BC as being able to do what so many on this thread think it can.

Why are you so defensive?

And the fact that I came back means nothing?? Yes, I left the Church for 38 years, but I did not leave God. I do regret those years away from the church, of course, but I also missed a lot of bad things that went on at that time, and I don’t regret that. I was very devout as a child, going to confession almost every week. How many kids ever go to confession anymore unless they’re forced to? Even though I did not stay a devout Catholic, I still lived a “good” life as the world defines it, staying on the straight and narrow as far as the world is concerned, and I think much of that is due to what I learned as a child.

So, please, enough with the snide remarks.

I’m sorry, but your comments still make no sense to me. Memorization is memorization. I don’t understand how memorizing from the BC is different than memorizing anything else.

I love your comments. They make so much sense!

 

[Brooklyn]

I am sorry if you think it was a “snide” remark, that was not how it was intended. It was actually a legitimate question, I believe.

You and others who are “champions” of the BC make it sound as though it will “solve all the problems of the Church” to go back to it, yet my experience tells me different.

And obviously, so does your experience.

And where did you get the idea that coming back means nothing to me. Did I say that?
I myself am a revert, after being gone for nearly 20 years. The BC had no place in my life before I left, and I do not find it usefull now, but if someone does, that is fine. I have never said, nor do I believe anyone here has said that is should never be used. What I am saying is that there are other ways to catechize, and I do not see the BC as being able to do what so many on this thread think it can.

Why are you so defensive?

Because your comment seemed to say, see, the BC didn’t help you so it can’t be much good. This was your comment:

Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen
I snipped this out of your longer reply, because I want to address this comment.
Obviously, the BC didn’t help you, because you left the Church for 38 years.
You may have found that all that stuff you memorized all came back to you, and helped you as you came back to the church, but the claim the at the BC is the “best” way to teach the faith is, at least IMHO, disproved with this comment.

You knew absolutely nothing about me or my history, and yet you automatically assume the BC was of no help to me.

We really need to be careful about drawing such broad conclusions when we don’t know the facts.

And no one is saying that the BC will “solve all the problems of the Church”. You readily admit the BC had no part in your life whatsoever. Don’t you wonder at all if things would hve been different it had? The whole point is to become grounded in the teachings and dogma of the Church, and that is the entire purpose of the BC, which it does in an easy to understand manner. As I said, I was learning from it when I was 7 years old. And as a child, I understood more about Church teachings than most adults do today. If you don’t know the BC, have never used or read it, how can you comment on it?

 

[Brooklyn]

Because people don’t memorize the catechism, now.

Maybe they should. I have read most of the new Catechism. At the end of each section there is a summary, and the new Catechism recommends memorizing those sections. Hmmmmm. Wonder where they got that idea from?

Before we got off topic talking about Hell and who talks about it and who doesn’t, we were talking about memorizing the BC. I said then, my mom who went through 8 years of Catholic school still didn’t know a lot about the Church. She could quote the BC all day long, but being able to quote it is different than knowing it.

 

[TimothyH]

In July of this year, Gallup published a study that showed that all organized religion in the US was in decline, but the Catholic church had a steeper decline. It supported what I had already seen in my friends and family-people simply walking away from the Church and not really understanding what it was they were giving up. I spent five years away myself, but what drew me back was that I DID know what I was missing. I went to a non-denominational church that was full of “recovering Catholics” that had no real idea what they were recovering from when you talked to them. I am grateful to God for that time away because He showed me quite plainly why I was a Catholic and what the truth really was.

I left for a while too, and tried as hard as I could to be a steriotypical Bible thumping Evangelical. I mean I worked hard at it, and tried to be one, but it never felt natural.

It was what the Evangelicals were telling me - that Baptism was only symbolic and all you need for forgiveness is to confess straight to God - this is what drove me back to Catholicism. There was no basis for it in scripture. Ultimately scripture brought me back to the Catholic Church.

-Tim-

 

[Seeker1961]

We didn’t memorize every line where I went to school. We memorized select questions from each chapter. Looking back on it, those were the questions and answers that defined the teaching for that chapter. For example, we memorized the questions and answers for the definitions of mortal and venial sins and grace, but we didn’t memorize the ones that dealt with the discussion of behavior. We learned them and were tested on them, but we weren’t expected to memorize the wording.

 

[OraLabora]

I left for a while too, and tried as hard as I could to be a steriotypical Bible thumping Evangelical. I mean I worked hard at it, and tried to be one, but it never felt natural.

It was what the Evangelicals were telling me - that Baptism was only symbolic and all you need for forgiveness is to confess straight to God - this is what drove me back to Catholicism. There was no basis for it in scripture. Ultimately scripture brought me back to the Catholic Church.

-Tim-

When I came back I was enthusiastically proselytized by an evangelical colleague. I too read the Bible and scripture did not jive with what he was saying. So for me too scripture brought me back.

I remember having to stand in front of my class and recite the catechism lesson by heart, word for ford, or be slapped by the teacher’s ruler. It made me a good parrot, not a good Catholic. I promptly forgot it all once I no longer needed it to pass a test or recite it to the class.

At this point we’re all just talking past each other and it’s becoming pointless. I’ll defer the issue to the holy mother Church though I think she’s already decided. If she changes her mind that’s her prerogative. It will have zero impact on my faith walk.

 

[maryjk]

Maybe they should. I have read most of the new Catechism. At the end of each section there is a summary, and the new Catechism recommends memorizing those sections. Hmmmmm. Wonder where they got that idea from?

Memorizing does not equal knowing.

That doesn’t really make sense. If your mom knows what the BC says, then she knows the teaching of the Church.

No, she knew the answers to the questions. She could quote them. But memorizing answers to questions does not equal knowing your faith.

 

[maryjk]

We didn’t memorize every line where I went to school. We memorized select questions from each chapter. Looking back on it, those were the questions and answers that defined the teaching for that chapter. For example, we memorized the questions and answers for the definitions of mortal and venial sins and grace, but we didn’t memorize the ones that dealt with the discussion of behavior. We learned them and were tested on them, but we weren’t expected to memorize the wording.

Is 1961 the year of your birth? If so, you were not taught the way my parents were taught. They were born in the 40’s.

For them, if you didn’t quote it exactly you were punished. Or at the very least you got it wrong.

I was born in the 60’s. We did not have to memorize the questions and answers, just know the information.

 

[TimothyH]

Memorizing does not equal knowing.No, she knew the answers to the questions. She could quote them. But memorizing answers to questions does not equal knowing your faith.

There is a difference between experiential knowledge and priori (before experience) knowledge. Some knowledge can only be aquired through experience.

Wikipedia actually explains it well and gives the example of seeing colors.

Once can understand how the human eye converts photons into electrical impulses and one can study different wavelengths of light, but such knowledge does not equal the experience of actually seeing color. Color can be explained, but it can never fully be known until it is experienced.

What works for one doesn’t necissarily work for another. Thomas Edison was thrown out of school for asking too many questions. They said he was too disruptive. The school’s way of learning did not work for him. Any work of human hands is imperfect and won’t work in all situations. When asked about his thousands of failed attempts at inventing the light bulb he said that they wern’t failures but steps in a successful process.

-Tim-

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Ya know something, Brooklyn, I am not the enemy here! Read what I wrote, not what you think I said!

I agree that catechesis in some places is abyssmal, and maybe the BC can help, maybe not. I just don’t think that it is the answer to all the problems that we are facing.

The story you related is the same as many of my friends who grew up having the BC drilled into their heads and knew all the facts, but had no idea how to put those facts in action. Many of them left also, even knowing the “facts”, so again I ask, if the BC is so wonderful, why have so many who were schooled with it either left the Chruch completely or still have no real idea what their religion is all about except for a bunch of “do this, don’t do that” rules

And I never said that I did not know about the BC, I said it did not have a place in my life. I actually have 4 different copies that span the entire 20th century.

Because your comment seemed to say, see, the BC didn’t help you so it can’t be much good. This was your comment:

You knew absolutely nothing about me or my history, and yet you automatically assume the BC was of no help to me.

We really need to be careful about drawing such broad conclusions when we don’t know the facts.

And no one is saying that the BC will “solve all the problems of the Church”. You readily admit the BC had no part in your life whatsoever. Don’t you wonder at all if things would hve been different it had? The whole point is to become grounded in the teachings and dogma of the Church, and that is the entire purpose of the BC, which it does in an easy to understand manner. As I said, I was learning from it when I was 7 years old. And as a child, I understood more about Church teachings than most adults do today. If you don’t know the BC, have never used or read it, how can you comment on it?

 

[OraLabora]

Is 1961 the year of your birth? If so, you were not taught the way my parents were taught. They were born in the 40’s.

For them, if you didn’t quote it exactly you were punished. Or at the very least you got it wrong.

I was born in the 60’s. We did not have to memorize the questions and answers, just know the information.

I was born in '58. I learned it like your parents. We had to memorize the responses word-for-word and if we got it wrong when reciting in front of the class we were punished. With some of my teachers, that meant corporal punishment. Like I said it made us good parrots.

 

[Brooklyn]

Memorizing does not equal knowing.No, she knew the answers to the questions. She could quote them. But memorizing answers to questions does not equal knowing your faith.

How do you make the assessment that your mother did not know her faith?

 

[Brooklyn]

I was born in '58. I learned it like your parents. We had to memorize the responses word-for-word and if we got it wrong when reciting in front of the class we were punished. With some of my teachers, that meant corporal punishment. Like I said it made us good parrots.

You know, Cat let me have it because she feels I am too negative about the Church and the problems the Church is facing now. Sometimes you guys sound awfully negative about the Church back then, back when 75% of Catholics went to Mass every Sunday, confession lines were long and out the door, vocations were overflowing, and we sure didn’t have nuns and priests pushing for things like contraception, homosexuality, women priests and married priests.

Why is it okay to put down the Church from 50 to 60 years ago, but I get pounded for pointing out the very real problems we face today?

BTW, I never received corporal punishment if I couldn’t recite it word for word, and I don’t remember anyone being punished like that, either. Yes, I did see kids get whacked with a ruler now and then for other things. I’m not saying that some of those nuns couldn’t be rough. But I also don’t remember the horrible discipline problems that schools face today. Think there’s a correlation? And please don’t go saying that I approve of kids being beat up.

 

[Seeker1961]

You know, Cat let me have it because she feels I am too negative about the Church and the problems the Church is facing now. Sometimes you guys sound awfully negative about the Church back then, back when 75% of Catholics went to Mass every Sunday, confession lines were long and out the door, vocations were overflowing, and we sure didn’t have nuns and priests pushing for things like contraception, homosexuality, women priests and married priests.

Why is it okay to put down the Church from 50 to 60 years ago, but I get pounded for pointing out the very real problems we face today?

BTW, I never received corporal punishment if I couldn’t recite it word for word, and I don’t remember anyone being punished like that, either. Yes, I did see kids get whacked with a ruler now and then for other things. I’m not saying that some of those nuns couldn’t be rough. But I also don’t remember the horrible discipline problems that schools face today. Think there’s a correlation? And please don’t go saying that I approve of kids being beat up.

I spent years in in Catholic school and never saw or heard of a single classmate being hit for any reason. I don’t deny that it occurred in other places but it did not occur everywhere.

 

[Brooklyn]

Ya know something, Brooklyn, I am not the enemy here! Read what I wrote, not what you think I said!

I agree that catechesis in some places is abyssmal, and maybe the BC can help, maybe not. I just don’t think that it is the answer to all the problems that we are facing.

The story you related is the same as many of my friends who grew up having the BC drilled into their heads and knew all the facts, but had no idea how to put those facts in action. Many of them left also, even knowing the “facts”, so again I ask, if the BC is so wonderful, why have so many who were schooled with it either left the Chruch completely or still have no real idea what their religion is all about except for a bunch of “do this, don’t do that” rules

And I never said that I did not know about the BC, I said it did not have a place in my life. I actually have 4 different copies that span the entire 20th century.

That’s the first I heard that there are enemies here. But we are definitely on two different sides of the fence.

I don’t know how many times I’ve written this, but I’m not saying the BC is the answer to all our problems, either. But I do believe it can be a tremendous help, because the state of catechesis in the church today is abysmal, to say the least.

I think you and I should just agree that we disagree and leave it at that before one or both of us start getting nasty.

One last question - what, if anything, do you do with your copies of the BC? If they are just sitting around your house gathering dust, maybe you could donate them to a church or a group that would appreciate them.

 

[OraLabora]

I spent years in in Catholic school and never saw or heard of a single classmate being hit for any reason. I don’t deny that it occurred in other places but it did not occur everywhere.

I sure as hell do in Quebec. My grade 4 teacher was particarly nasty. She would hit if we forgot a punctuation mark during dictation. Same with the catechism responses. I am sorry but I don’t see that as a solution to school discipline issues and even much less as a technique to teach us about a loving God.

 

[TrueLight]

I agree, but the point is that we have a generation or more that doesn’t have the basics. Before you can move beyond milk, you have to have had milk.

Agreed.