Why don't we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

[TrueLight]

Why don’t we use the Baltimore Catechism anymore?

Because the properly schooled faithful would start questioning the actions of their Bishops and Cardinals…

…that just want to get along and be friends with all the baal/ashtoreth worshipers and the abominations they force on us by legal fiat. After all we just want to be friends.

Alrighty then!

 

[Seeker1961]

I can’t say I got any of the reasoning from the old catechism… and I looked at the parts on sexuality and chastity in the BC this week and saw nothing in the way of explanations (nor even a definition of “adultery” and “chastity”).

I agree that when one learns about those things it all makes perfect sense. but I certainly didn’t learn anything I could understand (at elementary school age) about those subjects from the old catechism. When I read it today in light of knowing what adultery and chastity means, I certainly know what I’m supposed or not supposed to do from the BC, but there’s no explanation of why.

Maybe it’s just me but without an explanation I feel I’m being taken for an idiot and that turns me off. What did help me understand it was a good understanding of Natural Law.

You also have to remember that when a child is in grammar school they really aren’t ready for deep understanding of concepts like sexuality or say, the doctrine of the Trinity. The BC isn’t going to give you that. What it’s going to give you is the truth, and then when you reach the maturity level to understand deeper things you aren’t learning from the BC anymore. By high school we were using different resources.

 

[OraLabora]

You also have to remember that when a child is in grammar school they really aren’t ready for deep understanding of concepts like sexuality or say, the doctrine of the Trinity. The BC isn’t going to give you that. What it’s going to give you is the truth, and then when you reach the maturity level to understand deeper things you aren’t learning from the BC anymore. By high school we were using different resources.

True, but some level of explanation is necessary, or at least leave those elements out until an appropriate age. Perhaps at elementary school level that commandment can be interpreted as a husband and wife “being faithful to each other and not falling in love with other people”. Or simply say that this commandment will be explained when you’re old enough to understand. That I could understand as a child. Big meaningless words are just that…

 

[TrueLight]

I would appreciate all of your (name removed by moderator)ut on this thread. Thanks!

YouCat for daughter going off to college?

 

[Brooklyn]

You also have to remember that when a child is in grammar school they really aren’t ready for deep understanding of concepts like sexuality or say, the doctrine of the Trinity. The BC isn’t going to give you that. What it’s going to give you is the truth, and then when you reach the maturity level to understand deeper things you aren’t learning from the BC anymore. By high school we were using different resources.

This might be one time I disagree with you, and only because of the times we live in. When we were in grammar school, most of us didn’t even know what sex was. I thought it was two people kissing. They use to warn us about immoral thoughts, but I wasn’t really sure what that was.

Kids today no longer have that innocence. They are exposed to graphic sex from the earliest ages, when they can barely walk and talk. I’m not saying that the BC cannot be used for these kids. It is an excellent way to learn dogma of the Catholic Church. But it would have to be supplemented with other more “mature” teaching that we didn’t need when we were young.

 

[RobbyS]

I can’t say I got any of the reasoning from the old catechism… and I looked at the parts on sexuality and chastity in the BC this week and saw nothing in the way of explanations (nor even a definition of “adultery” and “chastity”).

I agree that when one learns about those things it all makes perfect sense. but I certainly didn’t learn anything I could understand (at elementary school age) about those subjects from the old catechism. When I read it today in light of knowing what adultery and chastity means, I certainly know what I’m supposed or not supposed to do from the BC, but there’s no explanation of why.

Maybe it’s just me but without an explanation I feel I’m being taken for an idiot and that turns me off. What did help me understand it was a good understanding of Natural Law.

The culture on which Catholics were reared furnished them with a context which made some of the explanation unnecessary. Even the general culture was not that much different in what was sexual moral and what not. That is a long way from being the truth now. “Playboy” seem pretty tame nowadays.

 

[RobbyS]

True, but some level of explanation is necessary, or at least leave those elements out until an appropriate age. Perhaps at elementary school level that commandment can be interpreted as a husband and wife “being faithful to each other and not falling in love with other people”. Or simply say that this commandment will be explained when you’re old enough to understand. That I could understand as a child. Big meaningless words are just that…

Even to bring up the question of homosexuality to a young child serves only to confuse him/her. But the broader culture seems determined to “inform” the child that there are diverse forms of family and lead him to accept the “New Normal."

 

[Sirach2]

OraLabora:

My point is that at one point all the intellect and catechesis in the world didn’t help my wife and I become better Christians. I believe the direct hand of God was involved. A real, palpable and direct interaction in our lives that operated on our hearts rather than our intellect.

You hit the nail head-on! I was raised in the days when Catholic schools required us to memorize the BC. I knew it by heart. Why then did I leave the Church when I was out of school? If facts and knowledge are enough to save us, it did not work. I was nearly 37 when I returned to the Church, and the impetus was a direct encounter and faith experience of the love of Jesus. HE was the reason I came back.

The BC taught that I was created to know, love and serve God, but somehow it failed to get across the message of “relationship” with Christ, and knowledge of how much Jesus loved ME. Those BC days were very deficient and instrumental in losing my faith. I never leanred to walk in His presence.

Heck, we even went to daily mass in those days, and mom had to pack a breakfast so I could eat after mass in the classroom. You’d think, wouldn’t you, that reception of the Eucharist daily was sufficient to keep me in the faith?

I cherish the words from our weekday mass about a week ago, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that comes forth from the mouth of God.” If we aren’t living in covenant relationship with Our Father, we miss completely miss the mark.

 

[TimothyH]

You hit the nail head-on! I was raised in the days when Catholic schools required us to memorize the BC. I knew it by heart. Why then did I leave the Church when I was out of school? If facts and knowledge are enough to save us, it did not work. I was nearly 37 when I returned to the Church, and the impetus was a direct encounter and faith experience of the love of Jesus. HE was the reason I came back.

The BC taught that I was created to know, love and serve God, but somehow it failed to get across the message of “relationship” with Christ, and knowledge of how much Jesus loved ME. Those BC days were very deficient and instrumental in losing my faith. I never leanred to walk in His presence.

Heck, we even went to daily mass in those days, and mom had to pack a breakfast so I could eat after mass in the classroom. You’d think, wouldn’t you, that reception of the Eucharist daily was sufficient to keep me in the faith?

I cherish the words from our weekday mass about a week ago, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that comes forth from the mouth of God.” If we aren’t living in covenant relationship with Our Father, we miss completely miss the mark.

This is a perfect example of why the BC alone might not be good enough in and of itself.

We need catechesis in moral theology, how to apply the basic doctrines and dogmas of our faith into the deatails of our daily lives, and in living good, moral Christian lives, we will experience the presence of the holy spirit.

Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 12:23)

If anything, the BC is a good start, but it does not go far enough.

As an example, the BC tells us about purity and modesty as gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it does nothing to help a ffifteen year old girl at the mall choose what clothes to buy.

-Tim-

 

[Sirach2]

TimothyH:

We need catechesis in moral theology, how to apply the basic doctrines and dogmas of our faith into the details of our daily lives, and in living good, moral Christian lives, we will experience the presence of the holy spirit.
Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 12:23)

Keeping the memorization is not keeping His word.

 

[kkollwitz]

I was born in 1957, attended Catholic schools through 1973. I saw other kids spanked, slapped, and hit, and was myself spanked and hit (not slapped). Truthfully I got less than I deserved, and if not for the credible threat of physical punishment at school and at home, I believe I’d’ve turned out quite badly.

 

[kkollwitz]

The problem with the BC wasn’t so much the content of the BC itself. It was that the teacher didn’t teach- the teacher was simply a drill sergeant. Now if I had to teach catechism from the BC, that would be ok with me. But class would be quite a bit different from my childhood.

 

[edwest2]

I was born in the mid-1950s, and we had Religion Class in my Catholic School. And the Baltimore Catechism was not the only book used. Actually, it is three books: one for kids at First Communion age, one for teens at Confirmation age, and one for older teens. I still have some of my original Religion Class textbooks and no, it was not all about memorizing. The nuns had us read a certain number of pages and answer questions - not just on tests but in class. They wanted to make sure that (A) age appropriate information was understood, and (B) as we got older, then slightly more mature information was added until graduation from High School.

We can use the Baltimore Catechism and some Catholic Schools still do. The late 1960s and early 1970s were the time of the dissidents in the Church who tried their best to cause confusion. That is changing now.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Brooklyn]

If anything, the BC is a good start, but it does not go far enough.

What’s wrong with a “good start?” No one here has said all we need is the BC and nothing more. A “good start” is exactly what we want with the kids.

As an example, the BC tells us about purity and modesty as gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it does nothing to help a ffifteen year old girl at the mall choose what clothes to buy.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I am still not sure how this is going to help a 15 y.o girl pick out appropriate clothes.
What is immodest?
In these forums, it could be a girl wearing pants to Mass?

I agree with Tim, the BC is a good start, but unless we teach the practical stuff too, as in how to apply the BC to life, it will (and has,as shown by many posts here) do no good.

What’s wrong with a “good start?” No one here has said all we need is the BC and nothing more. A “good start” is exactly what we want with the kids. From the Baltimore Catechism: 256. What does the sixth commandment forbid? The sixth commandment forbids all impurity and immodesty in words, looks, and actions, whether alone or with others. But immorality and every uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becomes saints. (Ephesians 5:3) 257. What are the chief dangers to the virtue of chastity? The chief dangers to the virtue of chastity are: idleness, sinful curiosity, bad companions, drinking, immodest dress, and indecent books, plays, and motion pictures. 258. What are the chief means of preserving the virtue of chastity? The chief means of preserving the virtue of chastity are to avoid carefully all unnecessary dangers, to seek God’s help through prayer, frequent confession, Holy Communion, and assistance at Holy Mass, and to have a special devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Be sober, be watchful! For your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, goes about seeking someone to devour. (I Peter 5:8) You might want to actually read the BC before criticizing it.

 

[Brooklyn]

I am still not sure how this is going to help a 15 y.o girl pick out appropriate clothes.
What is immodest?
In these forums, it could be a girl wearing pants to Mass?

I agree with Tim, the BC is a good start, but unless we teach the practical stuff too, as in how to apply the BC to life, it will (and has,as shown by many posts here) do no good.

Sigh. How did I know that someone would say “Yea, but it doesn’t tell you what is immodest”. If a 15-year old girl can’t figure out what is immodest, then she really hasn’t been taught anything. She knows when she is showing too much of her body. I wasn’t near as sophisticated at 15 as they are today, and I knew.

And just what is “impractical” about the BC quotes I posted?

 

[Corki]

I am still not sure how this is going to help a 15 y.o girl pick out appropriate clothes.
What is immodest?
In these forums, it could be a girl wearing pants to Mass?

I agree with Tim, the BC is a good start, but unless we teach the practical stuff too, as in how to apply the BC to life, it will (and has,as shown by many posts here) do no good.

Well, the new Catechism doesn’t have that either. That’s not the purpose of a Catechism. “Back in the day”, the BC was the main text for religion class and the “how to apply it” was expected to come from parents and other authority figures. These days we have more and more kids who are not getting anything in the “how to apply your faith” category from home. So religion class has to be more all-encompassing. Some good programs use the BC or a similar question and answer Catechism but then also add material that shows how the points of faith translate into Catholic living.

 

[Seeker1961]

Sigh. How did I know that someone would say “Yea, but it doesn’t tell you what is immodest”. If a 15-year old girl can’t figure out what is immodest, then she really hasn’t been taught anything. She knows when she is showing too much of her body. I wasn’t near as sophisticated at 15 as they are today, and I knew.

And just what is “impractical” about the BC quotes I posted?

Oh we knew what immodest was! Girls in our school knew that those uniform skirts needed to touch the floor if they were asked to kneel!

I confess to confusion about the idea that if we use the BC we must simply memorize and remove all other discussion. That wasn’t what happened in my school in the late 60’s and it certainly wouldn’t happen now.

I remain convinced that the foundation of the BC is what we need to build on to educate new Catholics of any age. (new adults could use the HS version) I don’t expect it to be the only tool used, but I think it should be a part of a solid Catholic education.

 

[Dominique1234]

You also have to remember that when a child is in grammar school they really aren’t ready for deep understanding of concepts like sexuality or say, the doctrine of the Trinity. The BC isn’t going to give you that. What it’s going to give you is the truth, and then when you reach the maturity level to understand deeper things you aren’t learning from the BC anymore. By high school we were using different resources.

Perfectly put. Who talks to kids about sex when they’re 5? Immoral people if you ask me. Secondly, how does one learn something without having the basics? You don’t go straight into algebra without first having done basic mathematics. Anyone with a sound mind knows that.

Same applies with the BC. Start small, with the basic Truths, and work your way from there… Then one can delve into theology and philosophy all they want, knowing the basics and how they apply in theology, etc…

You’re right on the mark. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless

Dom