Why dont you just Pray to God?

[DebCWil]

Several months ago, a Baptist upon learning that I was Catholic genuinely asked me about the Hail Mary. Although I did not have my Bible with me at the time, I was able to take him through the scriptures as I explained the rosary and its development.
He listened attentively. I was not a bit surprised by his final question. Can Catholics pray directly to God?
Of course we do, everyday. We pray to the Father through the Son… We pray the Our Father as given to us by the Son in Scripture. When the Church prays the Liturgy of the Hours, we are in effect praying unceasingly as St. Paul tells us in his Epistle.
Our prayer is strengthened by the Holy Spirit dwelling within each of us by virtue of the Sacraments. When we, weak humans that we are, lack the ability to pray, the Holy Spirit take over our prayer.
Prayer need not be verbal. St. Theresa of Avila writes about the Our Father, in her Way of Perfection. The gift of contemplation, a form of prayer, is a gift. Praying mindfully, fully aware of whose presence we are in, we begin with the verbal, and allow ourselves to be brought into His presence.
Prayer is more than the recitation of rote memorized prayer. It is communication. The lifting up of hearts and minds, that allows God to enter more fully into our lives. Prayer includes listening that we might know the will of Him whom we serve.

 

[RedFan]

RedFan:

LilyM:

Now show me in scripture.where it says the citizens of heaven are deaf and dumb and blind in regards their fellow members of the Body of Christ on earth. Or any less capable of hearing prayer than they were on earth. Or that God who gives us the great gift and blessing of being able to ask each other for prayer snatches that gift away after death?

I can’t. Scripture is silent on these things – as it is on their converse (which is my whole point).

By that logic, since scripture is silent on the topic of the internet you shouldn’t use yours.

We can, and need to, apply reason to scripture y’know.

Reason tells us that internet is a tool of communication and certainly licitly used for non-sinful communication.

Reason also tells us that God, giver of all that is good, would never take back His blessings, including the blessing of praying with each other and asking the saints for prayers.

I totally agree that the absence of mention of the efficacy of a practice in Scripture does not require that we abandon it. I totally agree with your point about applying reason to Scripture. Where are you going with this? I never claimed that it was silly to pray to the dead, nor that they couldn’t hear us, so why are you trying to argue that they can? You affirm what I do not deny!

The sole point I am making is that Scripture does not affirm it. Frankly, I cannot understand why you won’t agree. Your prayers to the dead are not undercut in the slightest by the absence of affirmation in Scripture. Indeed, it is folly to expect an answer to every theological question from Scripture.

Why do so many Roman Catholic posters on this site feel their beliefs are under attack whenever somebody points out the lack of a Scriptural underpinning for one of those beliefs? And these are the same people who champion reason, tradition and the Magesterium as alternative sources of authority for a proposition!

 

[RedFan]

But from what I’m gathering the prayers are based on Revelations. It does not specifically state that it can, but the interpretation is that they can help. Whether it’s " accurate" or not by others I appreciate just knowing what verse your basing it off of.

Thank you

I hope the discussion was enlightening. The answer to your OP’s question about where “Biblically” the principal of supplicating the departed on our behalf can be found is, it isn’t in the Bible. And if you are a sola scriptura guy, then I guess you have no reason to inquire further.

Personally, I am NOT a sola scriptura guy (although you’d never know it by the way some posters have responded to me here). I hope you can find some of your theological questions answered beyond the Bible. Good luck!

 

[Reuben_J]

LilyM:

RedFan:

LilyM:

Now show me in scripture.where it says the citizens of heaven are deaf and dumb and blind in regards their fellow members of the Body of Christ on earth. Or any less capable of hearing prayer than they were on earth. Or that God who gives us the great gift and blessing of being able to ask each other for prayer snatches that gift away after death?

I can’t. Scripture is silent on these things – as it is on their converse (which is my whole point).

By that logic, since scripture is silent on the topic of the internet you shouldn’t use yours.

We can, and need to, apply reason to scripture y’know.

Reason tells us that internet is a tool of communication and certainly licitly used for non-sinful communication.

Reason also tells us that God, giver of all that is good, would never take back His blessings, including the blessing of praying with each other and asking the saints for prayers.

I totally agree that the absence of mention of the efficacy of a practice in Scripture does not require that we abandon it. I totally agree with your point about applying reason to Scripture. Where are you going with this? I never claimed that it was silly to pray to the dead, nor that they couldn’t hear us, so why are you trying to argue that they can? You affirm what I do not deny!

The sole point I am making is that Scripture does not affirm it. Frankly, I cannot understand why you won’t agree. Your prayers to the dead are not undercut in the slightest by the absence of affirmation in Scripture. Indeed, it is folly to expect an answer to every theological question from Scripture.

Why do so many Roman Catholic posters on this site feel their beliefs are under attack whenever somebody points out the lack of a Scriptural underpinning for one of those beliefs? And these are the same people who champion reason, tradition and the Magesterium as alternative sources of authority for a proposition!

She said scripture affirms it. You just interpret that part of the scripture differently.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The answer to your OP’s question about where “Biblically” the principal of supplicating the departed on our behalf can be found is, it isn’t in the Bible.

Actually, the Catholic Answers column on this does cite Revelation extensively along with some other books of the BIble.

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers Tract

While I do not disagree with the columnist, and those references certainly support the idea, you are correct that “show me where this is in the Bible” is not a good approach. The Church teachings on intercessory prayer to Mary and the saints goes way, way beyond the interpretation of a few verses in Revelation. That is why I did not respond by immediately posting the CAF column with the Bible references.

 

[Reuben_J]

RedFan:

The answer to your OP’s question about where “Biblically” the principal of supplicating the departed on our behalf can be found is, it isn’t in the Bible.

Actually, the Catholic Answers column on this does cite Revelation extensively along with some other books of the BIble.

What the Early Church Believed: The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

While I do not disagree with the columnist, and those references certainly support the idea, you are correct that “show me where this is in the Bible” is not a good approach. The Church teachings on intercessory prayer to Mary and the saints goes way, way beyond the interpretation of a few verses in Revelation. That is why I did not respond by immediately posting the CAF column with the Bible references.

Yes, it reminds me when debating with some Muslims who would say, “Where in the Bible does Jesus say, ‘worship me’?” in arguing that Jesus in not divine.

 

[YADA]

It is a mystery how the Saints in Heaven hear and know … - Revelation provides hints - the Martyrs [Saints] present prayers to the Throne of God - St John describes those prayers as being carried in bowls and the prayers rise like incense … We also know from Revelation that the Saints are interested and aware of the happenings on earth as they ask when their vindication will come.

Also do not forget those who have not yet entered into Heaven proper - Lazarus, the rich Man and Abraham. Obviously the Rich Man sees Lazarus and Abraham and he speaks to them imploring them to come to his aid [water to drink]. When that request is denied even the Rich Man attempts to intercede for his relatives on Earth … in this biblical source we intercession from beyond this life.

Mack - please ask yourself if Jesus is the Lord of the living or the Lord of the dead … do we truly have eternal life? If you believe that in Jesus we have eternal life and in the bodily resurrection and heaven … then truly those who have proceeded us towards those realities must still be part of our life, par of our journey of faith, advocating for us each and every step of the way. Like tomorrow’s recognition of Martin Luther King - who we honor all of these years later - reading his words and using them to make our world a better place - these holy men and women in faith who have gone before can teach us about living the Christian life and they desire to aid us in that walk to eternal life.

Blessings

 

[lonegreywolf20]

As a Catholic I do not pray to the Saints or Mary. Only to God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

We are not required to pray to the Saints or Mary in the Catholic church.

 

[Limoncello4021]

OP, I hope despite your family’s poor Catholic practice, that you are able to start exploring the Catholic church again. I will say a prayer to the Blessed Mother and to the saints for you.

 

[PRmerger]

Blockquote

One of my biggest questions is the praying to saints for healing, help, etc. Even the Hail Mary.

Why not just pray to God?

Would you ask this same question for someone who asked you to pray for her mother who’s having surgery? Would you say, “Why are you asking me to pray for her? Why not just pray to God?”

I’m certain you wouldn’t say this because you understand that we can do BOTH–pray to God AND ask others to intercede on our behalf.

That’s exactly what we’re doing when we ask Mary to pray for us.

Where Biblically can this principal be found?

Why does it have to be found in the Bible? Does that principle (“Everything I believe has to be found in the Bible”) exist in the Bible?

 

[PRmerger]

And the next question that typically follows from this is: Ok, I get that we can ask others to pray for us, but those in heaven are DEAD, so talking to them involves NECROMANCY!".

And the Catholic response is: no, those who are in heaven aren’t DEAD. They are ALIVE. Alive in Christ…and there’s nothing in the Bible that says that those in heaven can’t hear our prayers.

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

Mack26,

One of the things you said in your initial posts was,

If we need help I feel the best way for help is to go to the provider, God.

You also asked for guidance.

It sounds to me like you’ve already decided what you think is the best way to pray. Or is there something else you are asking, seeing that you are here on a Catholic discussion site, and can’t put it into words yet. Or is there some obstacle you don’t know how or don’t want to get beyond?

I’m very glad you’re here and I welcome you. Keep challenging us with more questions, and if you could, give our answers, at least the ones that sound like they may be approaching truth, a chance.

Many blessings and please pray for me.

 

[Mack26]

I understand the self defeating statement of it having to be in the Bible, and I never said it did have to be. It just appears that these prayers are a huge part of Catholicism and I never really understood the origin. With it being something so strongly practiced I just wrongly assumed there was Biblical motive. I think I get the reasoning a little better now…I think!

 

[Mack26]

I am just seeking answers that I’ve never understood. I was raised Catholic, until I was 18 I identified as a Catholic. I never felt connected or really understood anything of Catholicism. I have since left the Catholic church and attend another church. I am seeking answers to better understand the rest of my families belief because they are still Catholic and don’t seem to know these answers. I appreciate your answers and helping me have clarity.
Thank you all so much! This is much more informative than I have found prior.

 

[DebCWil]

I highly recommend the The Didache Bible, Didache means instruction. The Didache was considered the earliest catechism of the Catholic Church. The _Didache Bible, therefore has commentaries based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is the Ignatius Bible Edition of Revised Standard Edition put out by the Midwest Theological Forum. The Revised Standard Version is the translation used by most mainline denominations. That includes the Catholic Church in many parts of the world, including the Middle East and Africa. In the United States, the Catholic Church uses the New American Bible for liturgical services. With the New American Bible translation, you can purchase _The Catholic Answer Bible_also highly recommended. It will answer those questions for which many object regarding the Catholic Faith while pointing to the Scriptural references that support Catholic teaching. Whether you purchase one or both references, do be sure to also get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
For simplistic in reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, purchase a copy of the United States Catechism of the Catholic Church for Adults, the official book used for RCIA. It will give you a story of a saint as well as a better understanding of what the CCC teaches.
Each of these books works together. The Catholic Church does teach a holistic approach to scriptural study. We don’t just read one passage from here and another from there. Scripture as a whole, both Old and New fits together to paint a whole picture.
The story of our Catholic Faith does not end there. It is a lived Faith. Succinctly put, God did not come to us tidily wrapped in a leather Book bound between leather pages. The beginning of the Gospel of John says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing came to be. What came to be was life, and this life was for the whole human race…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.’

We rely not only on the written Word, but also on Tradition which remains intact by the power of the Holy Spirit.