Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

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Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation…[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

“If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority…There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father” (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification…” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not “officially” taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn’t really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn’t necessary to really make them official. It wasn’t until errors started to creep in, that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
 
Verses showing the plurality of God in the Old and New Testaments

The Bible teaches a plurality within the Godhead in both the Old and New Testaments. It is these verses, in part, that lay down the foundation for the doctrine of the Trinity. For more information on the trinity, please see What is the Trinity? and The Trinity Chart on how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at. See more information on the Holy Spirit

Verses showing the plurality of God in the Old and New Testaments (LINK)
 
firstmode said:
Is this confusing?

Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand – especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God’s essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God’s word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.
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* Matt. 28:18, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
* 1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
* 2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
* Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
* 1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
* Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
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The proof to test the doctrine of the Trinity is in Isaiah 8:20. “To the Law and the Testimony; if they don’t speak according to this word, it’s because there is no light in them.” The Law is understood to be the Torah. By Testimony, the rest of the Tanach. Bring the Trinity to the test of Isaiah 8:20. If it passes the test, we might consider it.

Ben: 🙂
 
Hello everyone!

For those who want to follow the True Contrition thread that follows my responses to Alanjeddy’s postings here, I have moved the discussion to Back Fence so that this thread–now that it appears to be moving back on track–is no longer disrupted by the off-topic discussion.

I have posted a poll to survey subscribers’ feelings about accountability when posting.

The thread is entitled: True Contrition (from Non-Catholic Religions)
and can be found at
Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > The Water Cooler > Back Fence

For those of you who’d like to follow the discussion but not disrupt this discussion, please visit us.
 
firstmode said:
What is the Trinity?

The word “trinity” is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says “I”, and “You” when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word “subsistence” means something that has a real existence. The word “person” denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.
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* The Trinity
      o God is three persons
      o Each person is divine
      o There is only one God.
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Shalom Firstmode, I think that’s the first time I am posting one for you. Do you know something? Sometimes I find Trinitarians a funny people. A people who like to dance at the sound of contradictions. So much so that they even quote against themselves. A better allegory, a people like a group of flies that make fun of spiders by flying too close to their webs.

For example, you have even quoted Isaiah, the best Prophet in the Scriptures to be Unitarian par excellence. You quote Isaiah 43:10 and 44:6,8, and still think that you can full around the spider’s web. If you had gone a little farther ahead and quoted 46:5 you would have fallen prey of the arachnid. Here’s what is written in there: “Whom would you compare Me with, as an equal, or match Me against, as though we were alike?” See what I mean?

You have told us about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Now, let me tell you about the Jewish absolute Unity of God. Isaiah says that when the One God created the Universe, He was alone and none was with Him. (Isa. 44:24) And I tell you that more than One God would have been unable to produce the world. One would have impeded the work of the other. More than one God would have one element in common, and would differ in another.
Each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will being without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in two separate beings. The existence of one God is proved; the existence of a second God cannot be proved. It could be possible; but since possibility is inapplicable to God, there can’t be a second God

The possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of
existence. Therefore, if one God suffices, more than one God is superfluous. If one God is not sufficient, He is not perfect, and cannot be a Deity. So, my dear friend God is absolutely One, and mind you, He is incorporeal too. Hence, there is no plurality in incorporeality.

If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be One; or He would be comparable to other beings. And comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements; and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

Last but not least, allow me to say one more thing to you. There is no mystery even about this Trinity of yours. First, because there is no Trinity; and second, because Trinitarians themselves need to create the mystery, as a deterrant against anyone who has a mind of his or her own to attempt to solve it. Therefore, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is psychologically based on fears of being compared to a common cult.

Ben: 😊
 
Ben Masada:
You have told us about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Now, let me tell you about the Jewish absolute Unity of God. Isaiah says that when the One God created the Universe, He was alone and none was with Him. (Isa. 44:24) And I tell you that more than One God would have been unable to produce the world. One would have impeded the work of the other. More than one God would have one element in common, and would differ in another.
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Catholicism does not believe in more than one God. Catholicism believes there is only one God.
 
Valke2 said:
I was referring to the Catholic Church. I looked at this issue about a year ago. I don’t have the link but it was, i think, the Catholic Encyclopedia.
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In other words, there is none that is violated/mistaken. We should be ready to back-up our allegation. If we cannot, then we better keep our allegation to ourselves, or retract what we have already alleged.
 
firstmode said:
Early Trinitarian Quotes
There are cult groups (Jehovah’s Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council “was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church.”
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Ben Masada:
Behold! I do agree with Origen, as long as his reference to the Son of God is according to Exodus 4:22,23…
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Osee! foretells their redemption by Christ;

And the children of Juda, and the children of Israel shall be gathered together: and they shall appoint themselves one head, and shall come up out of the land: for great is the day of Jezrahel.
“One head”… viz., Christ

And what they did to Him; Wisdom:

But let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble, is found to be nothing worth. 12 Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. 13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. 14 He is become a censurer of our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different.

16 We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father. 17 Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. 18 For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.
 
agangbern said:
Not the same as pantheon of gods, it is very far. Three persons in absolutely one God.
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Either you are not serious or have decided to make me waste my time. That’s the last for this kind of comment.

Ben: 🤷
 
firstmode said:
Jesus is subjected to the Father.
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"For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all," (1 Cor. 15:27-28).
The word for “subjection” and “subjected” in these two verses comes from the Greek hupotasso which occurs 43 times in the New Testament and is rendered as put (5 times), subject (16 times), subjected (7) times, subjecting (1 time), subjection (9 times), submissive (3 times), and submit (2 times).1 For a complete list of each occurrence of the word ‘hupotasso’ so you can see the different senses in which it is used, see All New Testament Verses Listed using the word “Hupotasso”, “subject”.

So, we see that 1 Cor. 15:27 speaks of creation being in subjection to Jesus and then in verse 28, Jesus will be subjected to the Father. The Greek word-form for “will be subjected” is ‘hupotagasetai’ which is the future, passive, indicative. This means that it is a future event where Jesus will be subjected to the Father.
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"When this is finally accomplished, Christ will bow the knee to God the Father so that God may be all in all. In so short a passage Paul has traced paradise lost and regained, and the recovery of the submission of all things to God as in the beginning of creation. And it is Christ’s resurrection that guarantees this."2

"Son … himself … subject—not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father’s, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills “that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father” (Jn 5:22, 23; Heb 1:6). God … all in all—as Christ is all in all (Col 3:11; compare Zec 14:9). Then, and not till then, “all things,” without the least infringement of the divine prerogative, shall be subject to the Son, and the Son subordinate to the Father, while co-equally sharing His glory."3

"In an article in the Westminster Theological Journal, Michael Bauman discusses the different kinds of subordinationism during the Arian controversy. 13 He draws a distinction between what he calls emphatic and economic subordination. The Arian heresy taught emphatic subordination which entails inequality of nature and being. Arians asserted that "a natural inequality existed between the Persons of the Trinity by virtue of their essential differentiation and the temporal derivative character of the Second and Third." This is heretical because it is a subordination of essence or nature. Economic subordination, adopted by the Council of Nicea, means that while all three divine Persons are identical in essence, the Son is economically subordinate to the Father with respect to his eternal mission and function. The Son is no less than the Father, but has voluntarily submitted himself to the will of the Father."4
QUOTE]

Anyone with the minimum of commonsense can deduct from this subjection of the son to the Father, or of Jesus to God that the three are not one and the same. Therefore, there is no unity in the Trinity. It means that Christianity cannot be considered a Monotheistic religion. That’s an example of one having signed his own death sentence. I am sorry.

Ben: :confused:
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Ben_Masada said:
Either you are not serious or have decided to make me waste my time. That’s the last for this kind of comment.

Ben: 🤷
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You don’t have to believe me. What I said is true. If you want, or if you think I am joking, then prove my statement false.
 
Ben_Masada said:
My Bible is the very same Bible that it was for Jesus. Does it make sense to you? Jesus did not know any other Bible. We have one Testament, you guys have two, and the Mormons have three. The other day two young Mormon men came to visit me and I was curious for the huge Bible one of them was handling. When I asked about it, they explained to me that the true Bible must contain three covenants: The Old, the New, and the Last. Then, I understood that the Last was the Book of Mormon. Have you ever heard about that?

Ben: 🙂
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So, how many books does your bible have? And who choose those books as to compose your bible?
 
You know, you guys all keep arguing among yourselves when there is a totally different scenario if you will just look at it.

First off, in the Torah there is no such word as God. Today, we have taken several different names in the Bible and turned them all into a single word of God or Lord. We argue back and forth over something that is not even there.

Now, with that being said, we should actually study the original to come up with answers. And as we do, we must also understand that all new scripture has to agree with previous scripture. Therefor, if later scripture teaches something different than the first, either it is false, or more often than not, misunderstood. And if you take this latter misunderstood scripture and try to make it the rule, everything from that point on is then wrong. And this seems to be what all of you are doing.

Now Ben, you say Elohim is Absolutely One, but in fact, Elohim is the plural of El. Many say it’s the council of God’s with El as the God of all Gods.

But, with that being said, I will agree with you that El is Absolutely One.

In Genesis 1, we read the creation story. And Elohim creates all things in just six days. But then in Genesis 2, we read that Elohim and YHVH begin to create it again. So, what does this mean? And remember, this is extremely important, because the first scripture dictates the latter scripture.

Genesis 1 describes the Spiritual creation of all things. And one of those things created Spiritually is YHVH. Then YHVH, under the direction of Elohim, physically creates all those things that Elohim created Spiritually. Elohim and YHVH are not the same, but they are echad. Now, while the word echad can be translated as one, it also can be translated as united. Elohim and YHVH are united. They are working together for the same goals and purpose. They are united in just the same way that John tells us they are in the New Testament.

If we can truly understand this concept in the first and second books of Genesis, then we can go on in the scriptures and understand then in their true light. Then we will not go astray. But, if we do not understand them, then we twist and turn the scriptures to our own way of understanding and we end up with God being something he is not. We end up with the Messiah also being something he is not. And there in lies the problems.

MEgus
 
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