Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

[Valke2]

In other words, there is none that is violated/mistaken. We should be ready to back-up our allegation. If we cannot, then we better keep our allegation to ourselves, or retract what we have already alleged.

On the contrary. I gave you the source. Feel free to go to it.

 

[agangbern]

On the contrary. I gave you the source. Feel free to go to it.

Where is it? Please give the link.

 

[Valke2]

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many …They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; …**But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. **(Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, Fifth Theological Oration 31; Epiphanius, “Ancor.” 73, “Haer.”, 74; Basil, Against Eunomius II.22; Cyril of Alexandria, “In Joan.”, xii, 20.)

 

[agangbern]

First off, in the Torah there is no such word as God.

I wonder what you want to play around here. How can we find the word spelled as “G-O-D” in Aramaic? Naturally there is none.

Now Ben, you say Elohim is Absolutely One, but in fact, **Elohim is the plural **of El. Many say it’s the council of God’s with El as the God of all Gods.
But, with that being said, I will agree with you that El is Absolutely One.

Nice. You also agreed that the word Elohim is plural. But Ben would not agree with you that Elohim is plural. Here is what Ben says:

Here is what I say: Both words Elohim and Abraham are NOT words in the plural. They only indicate an extension of plurality in the object.

Elohim bara et hashamaim. (God created the heavens) Elohim is the subject; hashamaim is the object. Bara is the verb. It is singular because Elohim is singular. If Elohim was plural the verb would be “baru” and not bara.

Better know Ben further, MEgus.

In Genesis 1, we read the creation story. And Elohim creates all things in just six days. But then in Genesis 2, we read that Elohim and YHVH begin to create it again.

No! Maybe you have a different book of Genesis. For it is not true that in Genesis 2 Elohim began to create again. Better be careful in what you are saying. Your proof would be required at this point. Genesis 2, among others, simply supplied some details about the creation done in Genesis 1. There was no repetition of a previous activity.

Genesis 1 describes the Spiritual creation of all things. And one of those things created Spiritually is YHVH.

YHVH was created? What verse is that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Christians in general misunderstand the word Elohim when using it as an evidence for plurality in God. Trinity, that is. As time can be considered chronologically, and also psychologically, a word can also be looked at grammatically in terms of plurality of itself or psychologically as the plural related to it. I’ll explain in more simpler words.

The word Elohim does mean plural but not of itself. I mean, of the subject, but of the object it points to. For example, Elohim barah et hashamaim…" If Elohim, the subject was a word meant to be itself in the plural, the verb would by necessity have to follow the plural as in “baru,” (created).

Let’s take Abraham as an example to illustrate the case. Afterwards we will return to
Elohim. We all know that originally, Abraham’s name was Abram, and the name change was effected by occasion of the Covenant between himself and God, when the reason for the change was that Abraham would be the father of a host of nations. (Gen. 17:4,5) So, does the word Abraham mean plural? Yes, but not of the subject (Abraham) who continued to be one person. However, Abraham meant plural
but of the object or “many nations.”

Now, back to Elohim, there was a time in the very beginning, when the Hebrews considered God to be a local God: The God of the Hebrews, in opposite to the gods of the other nations. When they came to the enlightenment or understanding that God was absolutely One, and that He was the God of the whole Earth, the God of all the nations, they also came to understand that the plurality of Elohim was related to the object (the nations) and not of the subject, or Himself, Who remained absolutely One.

Grammatically, the singular for God is El, and the plural Elim, and not Elohim. Therefore, there is no plurality in Elohim per se but in what He relates to. The conclusion is that God is absolutely One and not a Trinity or Duality. Besides, God is also incorporeal, and there can be no plurality in incorporeality.

Ben:

Hi Ben, I get what you are saying. The other thing that I have read, is that Elohim is not plural because of the modifying pronouns that precede it are singular. In English, something along the lines of We are Elohim…this is not how it is written in Hebrew. It is written as ‘I’. Not literally, I mean, as an example.

However, the conclusion you have come to has a big leap in there that I’m not sure of how you made it. God has revealed Himself to us as One. There is no plurality in the Trinity. Jesus says, “I AM”, which was blasphemy to the Jews he was speaking to. Yet, He reveals the Truth of the Trinity. He did not say, “WE ARE”.

 

[Spirithound]

The word Elohim does mean plural but not of itself. I mean, of the subject, but of the object it points to. For example, Elohim barah et hashamaim…" If Elohim, the subject was a word meant to be itself in the plural, the verb would by necessity have to follow the plural as in “baru,” (created).

Grammatically, the singular for God is El, and the plural Elim, and not Elohim. Therefore, there is no plurality in Elohim per se but in what He relates to. The conclusion is that God is absolutely One and not a Trinity or Duality. Besides, God is also incorporeal, and there can be no plurality in incorporeality.

Take a look at Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 and you will find out why Jesus cannot help me with my questions.

I have no problem with Ecclesiastes 9, because I believe that Jesus is alive.

Now to make a stunningly on-topic post I would like to ask you for a morphological analysis of the word “Elohim”. You haven’t actually told us what it means…

 

[agangbern]

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many …They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; …**But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. **(Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, Fifth Theological Oration 31; Epiphanius, “Ancor.” 73, “Haer.”, 74; Basil, Against Eunomius II.22; Cyril of Alexandria, “In Joan.”, xii, 20.)

Referring to those who use Elohim in relation to Trinity, you alleged that,

That’s true. But those that rely on this verse are mistaken. Both under Jewish commentary and Church.

To back up you allegation you gave the link containing the following:

"***The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; *for reasons to be mentioned below (III. B.) they considered it evident that God the Father could not have thus manifested Himself (cf. Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 60; Irenaeus, Against Heresies IV.20.7-11; Tertullian, Against Praxeas 15-16; Theophilus, To Autolycus II.22; Novatian, On the Trinity 18, 25, etc.). They held that, when the inspired writers speak of “the Spirit of the Lord”, the reference was to the Third Person of the Trinity; and one or two (Irenaeus, Against Heresies II.30.9; Theophilus, To Autolycus II.15; Hippolytus, Against Noetus 10) interpret the hypostatic Wisdom of the Sapiential books, not, with St. Paul, of the Son (Hebrews 1:3; cf. Wisdom 7:25-26), but of the Holy Spirit. But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant."

Reading the above again, we would notice that it is simply a commentary about two groups of early fathers regarding their belief on the trinity, and they did not even mention Elohim. Clearly, the link you gave does not back up your above allegation not only because of the fact that those early fathers did not even mention Elohim or Gen 1:26, but basically because the early fathers, though members of the Church, “is” not the Church.

Therefore, your allegation fell.

 

[MEgus]

No! Maybe you have a different book of Genesis. For it is not true that in Genesis 2 Elohim began to create again. Better be careful in what you are saying. Your proof would be required at this point. Genesis 2, among others, simply supplied some details about the creation done in Genesis 1. There was no repetition of a previous activity.

You need to go to the original Torah to find this information.

The second does not simply restate the first, it is a whole different creation, a physical one. And it does not take place even in the same order that the first did.

Genesis 2:1 from the Torah reads:
2:1 Heaven and earth, and all their components, were [thus] completed.

What components??? That would be the spiritual components that were used to create the physical ones.

And if you go to the original Torah, you will find that YHVH is never mentioned until Genesis 2:4, the beginning of the second creation.

Why is that?

MEgus

 

[agangbern]

You need to go to the original Torah to find this information.

The second does not simply restate the first, it is a whole different creation, a physical one. And it does not take place even in the same order that the first did.

Genesis 2:1 from the Torah reads:
2:1 Heaven and earth, and all their components, were [thus] completed.

What components??? That would be the spiritual components that were used to create the physical ones.

And if you go to the original Torah, you will find that YHVH is never mentioned until Genesis 2:4, the beginning of the second creation.

Why is that?

MEgus

But who has the final authority to declare which is original and which is not? Or which is authentic and which is fake? Who is vested with the authority to decide on that? It is the Church who has that exclusive authority, the Church that Christ promised he shall accompany all day until the end of the age.

And in the Genesis that the Church uses, your allegations do not exist.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I have no problem with Ecclesiastes 9, because I believe that Jesus is alive.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Hi Ben, I get what you are saying. The other thing that I have read, is that Elohim is not plural because of the modifying pronouns that precede it are singular. In English, something along the lines of We are Elohim…this is not how it is written in Hebrew. It is written as ‘I’. Not literally, I mean, as an example.

However, the conclusion you have come to has a big leap in there that I’m not sure of how you made it. God has revealed Himself to us as One. There is no plurality in the Trinity. Jesus says, “I AM”, which was blasphemy to the Jews he was speaking to. Yet, He reveals the Truth of the Trinity. He did not say, “WE ARE”.

Shalom Rebecca, your first paragraph above is gorgeous and I agree with you in everything. But you had to get into the second paragraph; and here I have a problem. Do you know when it was reported that Jesus said he was “I am?” 50+ years after he had been gone. And since it has been reported by the fourth gospel, at the end of the First Century. Between 95 and 100 CE.

That chapter 8 of John is so loaded with contradictions and non-Jewish facts about Jesus that almost the whole thing constitutes an interpolation with the purpose to reflect Jesus as the one. It’s no longer good on those who have a mind of their own. Jesus was a religious Jew. Anything not Jewish about him is prone to fail at the onset.

Ben:

 

[ruslan]

 

[ruslan]

 

[Ben_Masada]

Now Ben, you say Elohim is Absolutely One, but in fact, Elohim is the plural of El. Many say it’s the council of God’s with El as the God of all Gods.

 

[baddog]

Sorry Corki, but Trinity in unity is good only to be told as bedstory to put children to sleep. God is ABSOLUTELY One and incorporeal at that.

Ben:

God is not one and three in the same way. God is what God is, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is who God is.
One divine being or nature, but three in person.
One nature in unity, three distinct persons.

 

[MEgus]

But who has the final authority to declare which is original and which is not? Or which is authentic and which is fake? Who is vested with the authority to decide on that? It is the Church who has that exclusive authority, the Church that Christ promised he shall accompany all day until the end of the age.

And in the Genesis that the Church uses, your allegations do not exist.

No, the Church is not the final authority, God is.

God is who gave the revelation to man, and God is the one who teaches us the truth. When you turn your understanding over to others, you are likely to stray. The scriptures throughout the ages testify of this. Only God has the final truth.

But you can use your intelect to see things for yourself. Where did the Old Testament come from? Did it not come from the Torah? Therefor, we should go to the Torah to gain that knowledge. If we do, and open our eyes to gain knowledge and understanding, and listen to the promptings of the Holy Ghost, we can know for ourselves the truth.

MEgus

 

[baddog]

No, the Church is not the final authority, God is.

God is who gave the revelation to man, and God is the one who teaches us the truth. When you turn your understanding over to others, you are likely to stray. The scriptures throughout the ages testify of this. Only God has the final truth.

But you can use your intelect to see things for yourself. Where did the Old Testament come from? Did it not come from the Torah? Therefor, we should go to the Torah to gain that knowledge. If we do, and open our eyes to gain knowledge and understanding, and listen to the promptings of the Holy Ghost, we can know for ourselves the truth.

MEgus

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
1 Tim. 3:15- if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God,* which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.*
Matt. 18:17- and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

God leads and guides the Church by the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16- And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,* to be with you for ever,* 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

 

[MEgus]

Ben Masada;4940490:

Several traditions took part in the writing of Torah. The Yawist tradition, the Priestly tradition and the Eholist tradition. Two different traditions reported about Creation. I do understand why it’s so important to you, because you are too stuck to the letter. To me it’s not that important, because the whole Genesis account of Creation is an allegory which must be interpreted metaphorically.

Ben, that is not so. This is where you use your own intellect to explain away the scriptures. The Torah was given to Moses. It was not given to a group of men to write. It came direct from God. You think the Creation must be interpreted metaphorically because that is the only way it fits into your parameters. It’s not. It is absolute if you truly understand it.

Elohim created all things Spiritually in 7 days. Then, under the direction of Elohim, YHVH created them physically. There is no time frame for the physical creation. It took millions of years. Everything is stated just as it is.

YHVH and Elohim are One and the same. The difference in names is due to the traditions that took part in the writing of Torah. YHVH belongs in the phase when the Hebrews thought that God was a local God of the Hebrews only. And Elohim, after they got enlightened as to understand that there was no other god, and that God was of the whole Universe.

There you go again. Your using later scripture to interpret previous scripture according to what you now believe. You need to start with Genesis 1, it stands absolutely alone. In Genesis 1 there is Elohim. The supreme creator. The God of All Gods.

Now, If YHVH and Elohim were the same, then they would have been listed together in Genesis 1, but they are not. YHVH is not Elohim. When we get to Genesis 2, we have to look at all things from the context of it with Genesis 1. Nothing else. These two also stand alone, as there was no other scripture before them. And with that being said, we have a second creation taking place with Elohim and YHVH. They are two. Separate and distinct. Just as it says in scripture.

You can not take later scripture to interpret previous scripture. If you do, you will error and not know what God really intended. The first has to interpret the latter.

I understand your point. The solution I found for the problem was to understand the whole process of Creation as an allegory to describe the development of Mankind. You know, like that riddle the Sphinx put up to be worked upon. The animal that in the morning would walk on four, at midday on two, and in the evening on three. Today we know the solution but many got killed for not knowing it according to Greek Mythology. Those of us who have a mind of their own can see the same procedure with the Genesis account of Creation.

Ben:

Sorry Ben, but what you are telling us is your opinion. And I respect that as your opinion, your entitled to that. But, that is not what God says, teaches, or what happened.

Elohim is the God of all Gods. He is our Father in Heaven. He created all things Spiritually. YHVH is Elohim’s first born Spirit Son who under the direction of the Father, created all things physically. And that is the truth. You too can come to this knowledge if you will seek out wisdom and knowledge and understanding from God himself, and not by your own intellect. When you do, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of it to you.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
1 Tim. 3:15- if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God,* which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.*
Matt. 18:17- and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

God leads and guides the Church by the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16- And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,* to be with you for ever,* 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

Gal. 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

James 1: 5
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

We should go to God, who is the ultimate authority on his word. Not to any other, and if we do, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth unto us.

Matt. 16: 17
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

As Peter received knowledge of the Truth, so can we.

MEgus

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;4942955:

Ben, that is not so. This is where you use your own intellect to explain away the scriptures. The Torah was given to Moses. It was not given to a group of men to write. It came direct from God. You think the Creation must be interpreted metaphorically because that is the only way it fits into your parameters. It’s not. It is absolute if you truly understand it.

And you have decided to teach Torah to the Jew. That’s funny!

Elohim created all things Spiritually in 7 days. Then, under the direction of Elohim, YHVH created them physically. There is no time frame for the physical creation. It took millions of years. Everything is stated just as it is

The Genesis account for the seven days is only the Jewish method to establish the week cycle…

There you go again. Your using later scripture to interpret previous scripture according to what you now believe. You need to start with Genesis 1, it stands absolutely alone. In Genesis 1 there is Elohim. The supreme creator. The God of All Gods.

You talk about Elohim as if He was Zeus, the God of all gods in an Olympian Pantheon of Greek gods.

Now, If YHVH and Elohim were the same, then they would have been listed together in Genesis 1, but they are not. YHVH is not Elohim. When we get to Genesis 2, we have to look at all things from the context of it with Genesis 1. Nothing else. These two also stand alone, as there was no other scripture before them. And with that being said, we have a second creation taking place with Elohim and YHVH. They are two. Separate and distinct. Just as it says in scripture.

Are you serious! I can’t believe you believe these things you are saying. You must be joking!

Sorry Ben, but what you are telling us is your opinion. And I respect that as your opinion, your entitled to that. But, that is not what God says, teaches, or what happened.

And what you are telling me is the opinion of what culture, Greek or Egyptian?

Elohim is the God of all Gods. He is our Father in Heaven. He created all things Spiritually. YHVH is Elohim’s first born Spirit Son who under the direction of the Father, created all things physically. And that is the truth. You too can come to this knowledge if you will seek out wisdom and knowledge and understanding from God himself, and not by your own intellect. When you do, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of it to you.

And tell me, does the Church know of these ideas of yours?

Ben: