Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

[Ben_Masada]

What about the intention, Ben? You may not act on it for now, but you may act on it later, even much later. Moreover, there might be times when someone can get angry and suddenly explodes, so to speak, and the one whom he gets angry at kinda lose his energy to an extent, is overcome by fear, and is not so “alive” in the presence of the one angry! And if someone says angrily something to the effect, for instance, that the person he is angry is a good-for-nothing that would be more useful dead than alive, it may upset the other one to the extend that he would become so sad that every once in a while he might attempt to kill himself… This may happen, you know! A sudden outburst is not as innocent that it may seem to you.

**Listen Lapel, I did not say that’s wrong to build fence around the commandment. It’s good. It will make the break of the commandment remote. I just said that I don’t see a sin committed when one has only a bad thought or intention. As long as the action is not carried out, nothing happened. That’s all.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

He whom you call a religious Jew, Christians worship Him. But Jews sought to kill Him, and they pushed for His death. Now, about two thousand years passed, using your logic and your own bible, you want that Christians should not worship Him. I wonder when should the Jews stop persecuting Jesus.

**Sorry, and no offense meant, but this that Jews sought to kill Jesus and pushed him to his death is an antisemitic lie of the writers of the gospels who were anti-Semites. That’s as simple as that.

Ben: **

 

[Lapell]

**Oh! I think you are not reading be right. I am not defeding Jesus per se. I know that one once dead, he or she is dead forever. My stand if for the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism, which I think is being tempered by Christians who attribute non-Jewish innovations to Judaism.

Ben: **

Well, dear Ben, some questions for you:
1-How do you know 100% that EVERY time someone dies, he/ she is dead FOREVER?
2-How do you KNOW 100% that Judaism was meant NOT to develop further and “certainly not” towards Christianity?
I know you don’t believe it ever could, but it DOESN’T mean, just because you don’t believe it, that it DID NOT happen… The Christians were not the ones who made it happen, moreover they did not invent it. I’d like to give you an answer much more satisfying to you, but it wouldn’t be the Truth.
3-If Christianity is really true, which we Christians (including us Catholics, of course) do believe and are certain it is, those who passionately believe and teach the contrary can’t be in the Truth. Many Jews simply won’t discuss such a thing…
4-Given the rather superficial though apparently clever argument you have been serving us but not wanting to study further the facts from both the New Testament AND Catholic History, you don’t make yourself a credible witness to the Truth, Ben… You’d rather use the Hitlerian method of the broken record and unrepentance at whatever you would say than serving the Truth with awe, almost fear and reverence…
5-When you dissociate the “Jesus” from who you call the “Christ of Paul” you create a dichotomy similar to that with Nestorius and his followers the Nestorianites did, saying that the human Jesus is one person and the divine Christ is one other person (which is a heresy). This is not what saint Paul and saint Peter and the other Apostles did!
Don’t ask us Christians to do just like you. You simply don’t have any authority to do so, Ben. This is why I won’t comply and shut up just for your eyes, because what you have been doing here in in your other threads, Ben, as far as Christianity is concerned, is not right. It’s not even proper interreligious dialogue. You seem to want to destroy all that the dialogue between Jews and Christians have been trying to do. You want to maintain the fight “We are right and you are wrong”. Other Jews have been on these Catholic Forums, such as Valke2, who even started a thread “Let’s Talk About Judaism” where any offensive talk from his side was avoided. Some people then tried to derail that thread, but the rest of us disagreed with those people. What you have been bringing us up to now, Ben, has been quite offensive to us Catholics, and because of all this, I am really sorry to say that I don’t think I want to discuss any thing with you again if you mean to be so un comprehensive toward us and respectful of our religion and faith.
BTW, I might be even older than you are, even though Judaism is older than Christianity…

 

[Lapell]

**Sorry, and no offense meant, but this that Jews sought to kill Jesus and pushed him to his death is an antisemitic lie of the writers of the gospels who were anti-Semites. That’s as simple as that.

Ben: **

No offense meant, but agangbern never said that it was all the Jews! That some tried to attack Jesus doesn’t make the other guilty, Ben. Even though there are people ready to blame all the Jews for what a few of them did ( and then we should add the Romans ), that doesn’t make the rest of us do the same! Like I said, I don’t think there is one Jew living today who is 1980 years old or more…

 

[Ben_Masada]

No offense meant, but agangbern never said that it was all the Jews! That some tried to attack Jesus doesn’t make the other guilty, Ben. Even though there are people ready to blame all the Jews for what a few of them did ( and then we should add the Romans ), that doesn’t make the rest of us do the same! Like I said, I don’t think there is one Jew living today who is 1980 years old or more…

**You seem not to understand that by blaming the Jews even of that time indiscriminately for the death of Jesus, you are causing irresponsible people like the Syrian Dictator Assad to declare on the TV that he wonders how The Americans support Israel when the Jews killed their own God.

Ben: **

 

[MEgus]

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to this, I’ve been busy. But, I’ll try to catch up.

First off:

MEgus;4955850:

Read Psalm 147:19,20. The Almighty entrusted His Word to Israel only and to no other people on earth. That’s how God teaches us. And according to Isaiah 42:6, Israel was given as light unto the nations. That’s the light God has taught us and assigned us with the mission to teach the nations, including Mormons, no matter how proud they are to learn from Jews.

Ben, I’m not to proud to learn from anyone, but it sure seems to me like you are, why is that? Now, you say the Almighty entrusted his word to Israel only, but tell me, did not others have his word before Israel existed? You act as if the whole thing started with Israel, what about Abraham and Isaac? Were they left out? Or Adam or Enoch or Noah?

Now, you say you are to be a light unto nations. Tell me, where are your efforts to teach and show this light to others? Do you send out missionaries? Where are your efforts to bring the Lord’s children to the knowledge of him?

That’s a mystery that reflects how much faith can blind. The Gentile even quotes a text where it identifies Israel by name and still applies the text to himself.
That’s amazing how ignorance can dare. And regarding these 11 Tribes you mention above, they only make you live in a world of utopia, thinking that you could belong to any of them. Those Tribes do not exist anymore. They were permanently rejected by will of God. Read Psalm 78:67-70. That’s why they are called LOST Tribes.

Ben, do you know who you are? Are you not a child of your Father in Heaven? Are not all the people of the earth his children? You act as if God has rejected his children and left only you and your people as his. Do you not read the scriptures? How many times does it say that you have gone astray? That none of Israel is keeping the commandments and ordinances that God gave them?

Answer me this question. When was the last time Israel had a Prophet?

Does that not speak for itself?

And what about the scriptures that say the calling given to Israel will be taken from them and given to the Gentiles? Do you ignore those?

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

So, you must have mastered the scriptures by now. Then let me ask you: Where is it written in the scriptures that the scripture can save man? And how did you know that it was the Holy Spirit and not Satan that taught you when you read? And you mean to say that the Holy Spirit is a person who can teach? Finally, does man acquire faith through reading? Please support your answer with corresponding links when necessary.

Where did I say the scriptures can save us? They help us come to Christ, but only he can save us.

How do I know it was the Holy Spirit? By the admonition the Savior gave us to know.
Matt. 7:20
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

And last, do you not believe the Holy Ghost can teach you? What did the Savior teach?

John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

MEgus

 

[Ben_Masada]

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to this, I’ve been busy. But, I’ll try to catch up.

First off:
Ben Masada;4955953:

Ben, I’m not to proud to learn from anyone, but it sure seems to me like you are, why is that? Now, you say the Almighty entrusted his word to Israel only, but tell me, did not others have his word before Israel existed? You act as if the whole thing started with Israel, what about Abraham and Isaac? Were they left out? Or Adam or Enoch or Noah?

It’s the Psalmist saying, not me. Oh, yes, before Israel, the Word was with Isaac, before with Abraham, before with Noah, before with Seth, and before with Adam.

Now, you say you are to be a light unto nations. Tell me, where are your efforts to teach and show this light to others? Do you send out missionaries? Where are your efforts to bring the Lord’s children to the knowledge of him?

**Again, it’s Isaiah’s saying, not mine. Read Isaiah 42:6. Regarding my efforts, what am I doing here? God has brought nine Gentiles to Judaism and the return of two former Jews as a result of my work. **

Ben, do you know who you are? Are you not a child of your Father in Heaven? Are not all the people of the earth his children? You act as if God has rejected his children and left only you and your people as his. Do you not read the scriptures? How many times does it say that you have gone astray? That none of Israel is keeping the commandments and ordinances that God gave them?

I am a member of the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.
And of the other nations God will make an end, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. (Jer. 46:28)

Answer me this question. When was the last time Israel had a Prophet?

I am not sure you are aware of the definition of a Prophet. Would you let me know what you know about a Prophet?

And what about the scriptures that say the calling given to Israel will be taken from them and given to the Gentiles? Do you ignore those?

**This is Pauline Replacement Theology, which is just a modality of Antisemitism.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

**What did I expect or intend in starting this thread? I’ll tell you what. First of all, to proclaim the absolute unity of God. Then, being Jesus a religious Jew, my intent was to bring to your attention that anything about him, which is not Jewish, it’s not true. You might say that’s according to Christianity and not Judaism. Yes, but you are using a religious Jew to give an impression that there is precedence or potential in Judaism for Greek Mythology, and that’s not true.

Ben: **

But there is precedence or potential in Judaism for traditions coming from Canaanite festivals. There’s also precedence or potential in Judaism for traditions coming from Assyrian ideas too, at least indicating a period where certain ideas on the unity of God are more sternly unified during these periods. So why can there not be a precedence or potential in Judaism that comes from Greek Mythology too? It may be possible that certain Greek Mythologies are actually a Greek retelling of Jewish stories within a Greek context.

It seems to me that God has probably often allowed certain religious concepts to be acquiesced from other cultures, and even in-between cultures. It may even be that God intended these other cultures to “time release” certain information for the Jews once they finally encountered them, with the Gentiles bearing some primal knowledge about God going back to Adam-- implanted from the very beginning to more fully develop them when the time is right.

It may be incorrect. But there’s really nothing “new” about the idea of Jewish people being influenced by the cultures they are emerged in. And certainly these cultures were influenced by the Jewish populations within them too. Christianity does the same thing and I don’t really see anything wrong with this either.

 

[Ben_Masada]

But there is precedence or potential in Judaism for traditions coming from Canaanite festivals. There’s also precedence or potential in Judaism for traditions coming from Assyrian ideas too, at least indicating a period where certain ideas on the unity of God are more sternly unified during these periods. So why can there not be a precedence or potential in Judaism that comes from Greek Mythology too? It may be possible that certain Greek Mythologies are actually a Greek retelling of Jewish stories within a Greek context.

It seems to me that God has probably often allowed certain religious concepts to be acquiesced from other cultures, and even in-between cultures. It may even be that God intended these other cultures to “time release” certain information for the Jews once they finally encountered them, with the Gentiles bearing some primal knowledge about God going back to Adam-- implanted from the very beginning to more fully develop them when the time is right.

It may be incorrect. But there’s really nothing “new” about the idea of Jewish people being influenced by the cultures they are emerged in. And certainly these cultures were influenced by the Jewish populations within them too. Christianity does the same thing and I don’t really see anything wrong with this either.

**One thing is to talk about the potential in Judaism for Pagan mythologies, another is to mention them in Judaism. Why don’t you try that one? If I don’t have an adequate explanation, I might agree with you. But regarding Greek Mythology, they started influencing or interfering with Judaism only from the rising of Chritianity.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

**One thing is to talk about the potential in Judaism for Pagan mythologies, another is to mention them in Judaism. Why don’t you try that one? If I don’t have an adequate explanation, I might agree with you. But regarding Greek Mythology, they started influencing or interfering with Judaism only from the rising of Christianity.

Ben: **

I mean no disrespect. But that’s not true as far as I can tell. Not only were Hellenized Jews deeply influenced by Greek philosophers (and their mythologies) up to nearly 400 years before the coming of Christianity. But even the older patterns and cycles of Jewish worship from the time of Moses seem to have at least some precedent before the arrival of Judaism…

Such sacred Old Testament institutions as animal sacrifice, circumcision, temple worship, the priesthood, and prophets, even names for God like El, were all adapted from preexisting counterparts in Canaanite religious practice. Even the rituals of Passover itself were adapted from two preexisting Canaanite festivals associated with fertility, one celebrating the Spring birthing of livestock (the day of Passover) and the other celebrating the early barley harvest (the week long Feast of Unleavened Bread that begins on Passover)…

This doesn’t even get into the time of the Babylonian captivity. Nor the Assyrian conquest either. And it makes me wonder exactly what the Council of Jamnia was trying to accomplish when purging these “select” Gentile influences from Judaism around the First Century AD.

 

[Lapell]

**You seem not to understand that by blaming the Jews even of that time indiscriminately for the death of Jesus, you are causing irresponsible people like the Syrian Dictator Assad to declare on the TV that he wonders how The Americans support Israel when the Jews killed their own God.

Ben: **

So if one Jew does something really wrong, all Jews have to answer for the wrong he did? Not very fair! Now, the “Syrian dictator Assad” is probably an avowed enemy of your people, I don’t think he has so much concern about the New Testament. Just using it falsely. Must things cease to exist just because some use them in a very wrong way?
Lapell

 

[Lapell]

MEgus;5009596:

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to this, I’ve been busy. But, I’ll try to catch up.

First off:
Ben Masada;4955953:

Ben, I’m not to proud to learn from anyone, but it sure seems to me like you are, why is that? Now, you say the Almighty entrusted his word to Israel only, but tell me, did not others have his word before Israel existed? You act as if the whole thing started with Israel, what about Abraham and Isaac? Were they left out? Or Adam or Enoch or Noah?

It’s the Psalmist saying, not me. Oh, yes, before Israel, the Word was with Isaac, before with Abraham, before with Noah, before with Seth, and before with Adam.

Now, you say you are to be a light unto nations. Tell me, where are your efforts to teach and show this light to others? Do you send out missionaries? Where are your efforts to bring the Lord’s children to the knowledge of him?

**Again, it’s Isaiah’s saying, not mine. Read Isaiah 42:6. Regarding my efforts, what am I doing here? God has brought nine Gentiles to Judaism and the return of two former Jews as a result of my work. **

Ben, do you know who you are? Are you not a child of your Father in Heaven? Are not all the people of the earth his children? You act as if God has rejected his children and left only you and your people as his. Do you not read the scriptures? How many times does it say that you have gone astray? That none of Israel is keeping the commandments and ordinances that God gave them?

I am a member of the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.
And of the other nations God will make an end, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. (Jer. 46:28)

Answer me this question. When was the last time Israel had a Prophet?

I am not sure you are aware of the definition of a Prophet. Would you let me know what you know about a Prophet?

Lapell: A prophet is one sent by God to other people to give them a message. A prophet therefore speaks on behalf of God Himself.

And what about the scriptures that say the calling given to Israel will be taken from them and given to the Gentiles? Do you ignore those?

**This is Pauline Replacement Theology, which is just a modality of Antisemitism.

Ben: **
Ben, dear Ben! Where did you learn that there’d be such a thing as “Pauline Replacement Theology”? It’s in the Gospels! And it doesn’t have a thing to do with God’s having chosen Israel as His people, it had to do with the religious authority over His people! and religious authority is not of the same kind as the authorities in this world!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5010478:

MEgus;5009596:

Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to this, I’ve been busy. But, I’ll try to catch up.

First off:

Ben, dear Ben! Where did you learn that there’d be such a thing as “Pauline Replacement Theology”? It’s in the Gospels! And it doesn’t have a thing to do with God’s having chosen Israel as His people, it had to do with the religious authority over His people! and religious authority is not of the same kind as the authorities in this world!

**The best way to understand Pauline Replacement Theology is by reading Paul’s Letter to the Galatians 4:21-31.

And regarding your definition of a Prophet, you scored the highest grade. A Prophet is indeed the one who speaks on behalf of God on earth. We don’t need any more prophets because the whole Jewish People has been assigned to speak for God on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20; Isaiah 2:2,3; 44:23; 46:13; Ezek. 20:41)

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

So if one Jew does something really wrong, all Jews have to answer for the wrong he did? Not very fair! Now, the “Syrian dictator Assad” is probably an avowed enemy of your people, I don’t think he has so much concern about the New Testament. Just using it falsely. Must things cease to exist just because some use them in a very wrong way?
Lapell

**Well my friend, the matter of fact is that the NT does blame the Jews for the death of Jesus. It means that Assad was not spreading a lie. He was but reflecting what is written.

Ben: **

 

[madabkr4tx]

How could three be one when the three are not the same? Luke says that Jesus appeared to the disciples for 40 days after his suffering on the cross, showing them in many convincing ways that he was alive in flesh and bone, eating and drinking just like any other man, until the day he was taken up to heaven.

When or where did he leave that body behind? Catholics have told me that Jesus as the second person of the Trinity in Heaven exhibits the wounds of the crucifixion. How can he exhibit the wounds of the crucifixion without a body? If the other two persons of the Trinity are without body, how could the three be one? So, there is no such a thing as unity in trinity. I am sorry to rain on your parade.

Ben:

Water has three forms: Solid, liquid, and gas, but whatever the form, it is still water.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I mean no disrespect. But that’s not true as far as I can tell. Not only were Hellenized Jews deeply influenced by Greek philosophers (and their mythologies) up to nearly 400 years before the coming of Christianity. But even the older patterns and cycles of Jewish worship from the time of Moses seem to have at least some precedent before the arrival of Judaism…

This doesn’t even get into the time of the Babylonian captivity. Nor the Assyrian conquest either. And it makes me wonder exactly what the Council of Jamnia was trying to accomplish when purging these “select” Gentile influences from Judaism around the First Century AD.

**Camron, congratulations. Christianity was not the first. I knew about the influence caused by other groups even before Christianity. When I let that statement go and realized what I had said, I hoped you would miss it, but you didn’t. All I have left to say is to congratulate you. I am persuaded of your awareness.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Water has three forms: Solid, liquid, and gas, but whatever the form, it is still water.

**The simile with the water has nothing whatsoever to do with
the division you guys make of God. God is absolutely One and incorporeal at that.

Ben: **

 

[WarriorAngel]

My kids asked how we could know Jesus is God.

I of course quoted all the scriptures… and as someone I believe is from Jewish descent, Ben - I think maybe you would agree that saying the Lord’s name in vain would be unacceptable behavor for a Jewish man of that time.
St Thomas exclaimed at seeing the risen Lord ‘My Lord and My God!’

But let me explain Who Jesus was - when He was on trial instead of defending Himself - because there were no witnesses that could mar His name who were reliable since there was contradictions in stories - they asked Jesus about Himself and He said ‘Before Abraham - I AM’ to which His crime was blasphemy calling Himself God. Thus He was crucified.

Now Ben - let’s be real here - if Jesus didnt come to die and lay down His life willingly - would He have admitted something He knew would absolutely cause Him His death?

For what purpose or cause would He have gained if He wasnt God?
He would have died and boom that would have been the end.

Also the gentiles converted more easily because they witnessed His resurrection.
That would not have been an easy feat either Ben. Because they were tied to their gods and goddesses and had statutes erected for that very cause.

Anyway - bringing this up…

Philippians 2
*5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: *

*6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: *
**
*7 “Emptied himself”… exinanivit, made himself as of no account. *
** 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. 14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; 15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world

 

[WarriorAngel]

The simile with the water has nothing whatsoever to do with
the division you guys make of God. God is absolutely One and incorporeal at that.

Ben:

Yes it does.
You suggest it is impossible to be three forms in one.
BUT water has three forms although it is one.

God is beyond our comprehension or we would have the knowledge of He is the Alpha and Omega. Or how He created an entire universe with just His Fiat. [thots]

Tell us how it says in Genesis …

‘Let us make man in our image.’…