Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

[Ben_Masada]

Yes it does. You suggest it is impossible to be three forms in one. BUT water has three forms although it is one. God is beyond our comprehension or we would have the knowledge of He is the Alpha and Omega. Or how He created an entire universe with just His Fiat. Tell us how it says in Genesis …Let us make man in our image.’
QUOTE]

Personification of Attributes - Genesis 1:26

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over… the whole earth.”

The above passage of Genesis has been for years the trump card in the hands of Trinitarians to drop at the right time in the assumed thought that it will guarantee them to clean up the table, so to speak. Well, let them think again, because I have news. It’s no longer that easy.

Elohim is incorporeal, and incorporeality reflects no image. But then again, how to harmonize the use of the pronouns in the plural form? The attributes of God, which are part of His essence, were impersonately involved in the formation of man.

Bear in mind that only in the creation of man was the statement issued: To make man at God’s image. Since God has no visible image, and man does, it’s only obvious that man’s image would be according to God’s attributes. Therefore, His attributes in a relative portion, were the active agent in the formation of man.

Now, it’s imperative to focus on the pronouns used by the sacred writer, since the pronouns are anyways what Trinitarians use to think they have made their day. “Let US make MAN in OUR image and likeness. And let THEM have dominion over everything on earth.”

Now, focus on the word MAN. It is in the singular form. Nevertheless, the purpose is for THEM to dominate the earth. If THEM were a reference to man, a clarification would be in order to explain the discrepancy in the Grammar. I mean, that it would be a reference to all men. This lack of clarification was not a lapse of the author, but intentional will to direct our minds to the attributes of God, which took part in the formation of man.

It’s interesting and just convenient for Trinitarians to rapidly refer “us” and “our” to God Himself and hide any word of explanation on the plural pronoun “them,” which could not be a reference to man. I hope they do not do this on purpose because it would be spiritual cruelty to hide the truth.

I hope we have settled this issue. Since “them” is not a reference to man but to the attributes of God, it’s only obvious that “us” and “our” are not references to God Himself but to His attributes. Therefore, the Creator of the Universe is He Who has dominion over the whole of the Universe through man by way of His attributes.

Conclusion:

It’s more than obvious that Israel could not uphold the banner of absolute Monotheism in God, and start the Scriptures with statements of plurality in God. The whole issue therefore, was personification of attributes.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

My kids asked how we could know Jesus is God.

I of course quoted all the scriptures… and as someone I believe is from Jewish descent, Ben - I think maybe you would agree that saying the Lord’s name in vain would be unacceptable behavor for a Jewish man of that time.
St Thomas exclaimed at seeing the risen Lord ‘My Lord and My God!’

But let me explain Who Jesus was - when He was on trial instead of defending Himself - because there were no witnesses that could mar His name who were reliable since there was contradictions in stories - they asked Jesus about Himself and He said ‘Before Abraham - I AM’ to which His crime was blasphemy calling Himself God. Thus He was crucified.

Now Ben - let’s be real here - if Jesus didnt come to die and lay down His life willingly - would He have admitted something He knew would absolutely cause Him His death?

For what purpose or cause would He have gained if He wasnt God?
He would have died and boom that would have been the end.

Also the gentiles converted more easily because they witnessed His resurrection.
That would not have been an easy feat either Ben. Because they were tied to their gods and goddesses and had statutes erected for that very cause.

Anyway - bringing this up…

Philippians 2
*5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: *

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
**
7 “Emptied himself”… exinanivit, made himself as of no account.
** 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. 14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; 15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world

**Definitely, you are not talking about Jesus, who was a religious Jew. Everything you say above must be about a Greek demigod. Nothing you said above is true because it does not match to religious Jew.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

**Camron, congratulations. Christianity was not the first. I knew about the influence caused by other groups even before Christianity. When I let that statement go and realized what I had said, I hoped you would miss it, but you didn’t. All I have left to say is to congratulate you. I am persuaded of your awareness.

Ben: **

So what exactly is your argument?

 

[Ben_Masada]

So what exactly is your argument?

Oh, great! You have forgotten. Even better that way. You might as well forget we had an argument going on.

Ben:

 

[WarriorAngel]

**Definitely, you are not talking about Jesus, who was a religious Jew. Everything you say above must be about a Greek demigod. Nothing you said above is true because it does not match to religious Jew. **

Ben:

Jesus was God - He choose a line of Abraham’s children to be the line of which He would come to the world [not because they were righteous] but because of that promise to Abraham even before He grieved making man, He gave them foreshadow’s of the covenant He would bring with Himself to humanity.

AND indeed - what He did - doesn’t fit the modern Jew or maybe didnt fit the Jews who denied Him - but everything He did and explained to His Jewish Apostles not only made sense - but being He sent His Spirit to give them graces to understand it - the veil was lifted off their eyes…

Just as it was the pagan soldier’s eyes at seeing Him expire and then the earthquake occurred and the ‘temple veil’ was torn in half to allow man not to be seperated from God anymore.

Its not that Jesus wasn’t Jewish - its that the Jewish don’t see Him for Who He is - and was at that time.

300 prophecies fulfilled.

If you don’t know how - then you don’t see scriptures the way God intended them.

 

[Ben_Masada]

[quoteJesus was God - He choose a line of Abraham’s children to be the line of which He would come to the world [not because they were righteous]
but because of that promise to Abraham even before He grieved making man, He gave them foreshadow’s of the covenant He would bring with Himself to humanity.

Jesus was a Jewish man. You are confusing Judaism with Greek Mythology. There is no such a thing as a man being God among Jews. You are tempering with Judaism by inserting mythological innovations into it.

AND indeed - what He did - doesn’t fit the modern Jew or maybe didnt fit the Jews who denied Him - but everything He did and explained to His Jewish Apostles not only made sense - but being He sent His Spirit to give them graces to understand it - the veil was lifted off their eyes…

We did not deny a fellow Jew who came to confirm the most sacred Jewish thing to a Jew: The Law. We deny Paul who tried to abolish the Law on the cross.

Just as it was the pagan soldier’s eyes at seeing Him expire and then the earthquake occurred and the ‘temple veil’ was torn in half to allow man not to be seperated from God anymore.

The Temple veil was never torn in half but 40 years later when it was destroyed by the Romans. Bear in mind that the sacrifices kept on going for another 40 years after Jesus had been gone. It means that the reason for its halt was the destruction of the Temple and not Jesus.

Its not that Jesus wasn’t Jewish - its that the Jewish don’t see Him for Who He is - and was at that time.

The truth is that we see Jesus for what he really was; and you see him for what he was not.

300 prophecies fulfilled.

300 prophecies! Would you be able to mention at least one without the help of assumptions? I mean, one which was especially fulfilled by Jesus?.

If you don’t know how - then you don’t see scriptures the way God intended them.

**You mean perhaps that I don’t see Scriptures through the eyes of Christians? Listen my friend, we wrote the Scriptures. If it were not for us the Jews, you would not have a Scripture to read. If it were not for us, you could still be in the cave, worshipping the stone and the fire, or perhaps even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. At least give us some credit. We have even given you a god to worship.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

Oh, great! You have forgotten. Even better that way. You might as well forget we had an argument going on.

Ben:

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?

**I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish religious man. To be god, he had to be Greek. That’s where they have an Olympian Pantheon of demigods. In Judaism there is no place for Greek Mythology.

Ben: **

 

[kalt]

Do you have any idea who wrote the Bible? We did it. The Jews did it.
That’s why we know all these things.

This claim is preposterous. You no more know the Bible because you’re Jewish than a Christian knows the NT because he’s Christian.

Your claim is like saying that someone knows how to make sailboats because his unlce makes sailboats. It may be that he learned sailboat making from his uncle, but simply being of the same family gives you no special, inborn knowledge of the subject.

If you want to say that you know the OT because you studied it, that makes sense.

Ask youself why God had to change Abram’s name when He promised to make of him the father of many nations. One thing must have a lot to do with the other. If you have an idea about Chronological time versus Psychological time, the concept is the same with regards to grammatical plurality versus psychological plurality. All you have to do is to think logically.

And be decended from the authors.

Ben:

 

[Camron]

**I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish religious man. To be god, he had to be Greek. That’s where they have an Olympian Pantheon of demigods. In Judaism there is no place for Greek Mythology.

Ben: **

I think you need to research the Essenes. The idea that God would come and dwell among us is not foreign to Judaism either.

 

[Ben_Masada]

kalt:
**As I can see, you don’t have much initiation in metaphorical language and majestic plural. When I said that we wrote the Bible I was speaking as a representative of the People whom the Bible came from. When Jesus, for example, said he was the way, the truth and the life, he was speaking as a representative of the People who, according to the Scriptures, are invested with those adjectives. When he said to the Samaritan woman that salvation is of the Jews, he meant the people and not himself per se. I am sorry if I gave you the wrong impression of myself.

Ben: **

 

[Ben_Masada]

I think you need to research the Essenes. The idea that God would come and dwell among us is not foreign to Judaism either.

**I agree with you, but metaphorically through Immanuel which is the Jewish People, according to Isaiah 8:8; 44:23; 46:13; and Ezekiel 20:41.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

**I agree with you, but metaphorically through Immanuel which is the Jewish People, according to Isaiah 8:8; 44:23; 46:13; and Ezekiel 20:41.

Ben: **

The Essenes did believe that God would come and literally dwell among us. Their movement predates Christianity too.

The claim that Christianity is guilty of amplifying the meanings of Isaiah 8:8; 44:23; 46:13; and Ezekiel 20:41 beyond their intended meaning (via Greek influences) is not easily supported when one bears in mind that the Essenes emerged prior to Christianity-- and the Essenes were well known for purging themselves of Gentile influences too.

They were not Hellenized Jews either. They were extreme in practicing religious asceticism within the nation of Israel.

 

[Ben_Masada]

The Essenes did believe that God would come and literally dwell among us. Their movement predates Christianity too.

The claim that Christianity is guilty of amplifying the meanings of Isaiah 8:8; 44:23; 46:13; and Ezekiel 20:41 beyond their intended meaning (via Greek influences) is not easily supported when one bears in mind that the Essenes emerged prior to Christianity-- and the Essenes were well known for purging themselves of Gentile influences too.

They were not Hellenized Jews either. They were extreme in practicing religious asceticism within the nation of Israel.

**The Essenes believed that God would come and LITERALLY dwell among us! Listen Camron, for a Jew to believe such a thing, he must be either literally crazy or an apostate like Paul who showed up preaching that God had become flesh in the person of Jesus. Nice try if you were just trying to provoke me.

Ben: **

 

[Camron]

**The Essenes believed that God would come and LITERALLY dwell among us! Listen Camron, for a Jew to believe such a thing, he must be either literally crazy or an apostate like Paul who showed up preaching that God had become flesh in the person of Jesus. Nice try if you were just trying to provoke me.

Ben: **

I’m not trying to provoke you. Although it does appear to me that you are provoking others with your claims here at Catholic answers.

As I said before, I think you need to research the Essenes more. Since you’ve now made two very gross errors, I will conclude that you really do not know what you’re talking about in this area.

If you come to a Catholic forum to discuss your ideas you need to be prepared for the eventual possibility that your ideas may be challenged and even proven incorrect. I know I’ve had to adjust my own personal views more than once when someone proves me wrong.

Anyway, since you seem to be incapable of holding a respectful conversation without belittling the ideas (and the people) you are debating, I will attempt to leave it at that and pursue this further in prayer.

Have a Happy Passover / Easter Ben. And may God’s blessings come upon you this day.

 

[Lapell]

**I am saying that Jesus was a Jewish religious man. To be god, he had to be Greek. That’s where they have an Olympian Pantheon of demigods. In Judaism there is no place for Greek Mythology.

Ben: **

Ben, do you realize what you are saying here? “To be god, he had to be Greek”. So, the Master of the Universe is also Greek? And that would make you a rather strange kind of Jew, following a God who therefore should be Greek!!

 

[Lapell]

**You mean perhaps that I don’t see Scriptures through the eyes of Christians? Listen my friend, we wrote the Scriptures. If it were not for us the Jews, you would not have a Scripture to read. If it were not for us, you could still be in the cave, worshipping the stone and the fire, or perhaps even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. At least give us some credit. We have even given you a god to worship.

Ben: **

Ben, it’s obvious that you can’t see the Scriptures through the eyes of a Christian, since you are not one, obviously…
I am grateful to the Jews for what you mention here. Indeed it is true.
But you know, everything that the Apostles and Paul applied to Jesus could not have been consciously applied to him before his birth, of course. But if God Himself is the author of the Scriptures, surely what the sacred authors wrote doesn’t mean that they would necessarily be aware of EVERY SINGLE THING that God had meant to say through the words of their texts, hmm?

 

[Lapell]

Or do you mean to say that the Master of the Universe would mean only to say what the Jews would understand Him to have meant to say and nothing else? What kind of Master of the Universe then would He be? If the Jews can say to Him how to be the Master of the Universe, how can He be truly called the Master of the Universe? Aren’t you trying to restrict your God to certain areas and not to others? If He IS the Master of the Universe, you just can’t tell Him what to do. He will do as pleases Him, won’t He?

 

[Lapell]

**You mean perhaps that I don’t see Scriptures through the eyes of Christians? **

Well, that you see it as God intended it is what counts, whether we are Christians or Jews, isn’t it? But how do you KNOW that you are doing just that? Through the words of your rabbi? Isn’t the Word of God more than what our finite minds can discover in It? How can you be sure that all the commentaries said all there has been to say on the Scriptures?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Jesus was a Jewish man. You are confusing Judaism with Greek Mythology. There is no such a thing as a man being God among Jews. You are tempering with Judaism by inserting mythological innovations into it.

We did not deny a fellow Jew who came to confirm the most sacred Jewish thing to a Jew: The Law. We deny Paul who tried to abolish the Law on the cross.

The Temple veil was never torn in half but 40 years later when it was destroyed by the Romans. Bear in mind that the sacrifices kept on going for another 40 years after Jesus had been gone. It means that the reason for its halt was the destruction of the Temple and not Jesus.

The truth is that we see Jesus for what he really was; and you see him for what he was not.

300 prophecies fulfilled.

The Jews were to keep the scriptures intact [and see the Messiah for Who He is and many did] Jesus handed over all authority to His Apostles [who were Jews] and they converted the gentiles and Jews the first day 3000 were baptised.

Had the Jews been supremely stubborn and could not see Jesus for Who He is, none would have converted.

3000 the day the Apostles came out of the upper room with courage and spoke simultaneously several languages while only speaking in their own tongue…was an evident miracle.

HAD the Jews not seen this - nor saw the empty tomb, do you seriously think they would have just taken the Apostles for their word?

And let’s not forget - Paul didn’t come til later.
Ok.