Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

[Ben_Masada]

My question was rhetorical but nonetheless, I got what I intend to get.

Good! I am glad to have been of some help.

 

[alan1941]

Because he was Jewish, and what you claim he said is not Jewish. That’s all.

This seems to be a case of circular reasoning. “Because He was Jewish He would not have said this because if He said this He would not be Jewish” But if He was Jewish and also God He would not be restricted by Judaism from saying something that was true nor would being God in the flesh be impossible for one who is God who is sovereign and therefore not limited by the rules of Judaism. Jews did not always believe that Israel was the Messiah unless I am mistaken and there were eyewitnesses to what He said it in at least three of the Gospels. Judaism accepts the testimony of at least two witnesses and here we have three not to mention the twelve apostles, a minion. And Christianity has taught this from the beginning. Note the testimony of the Church fathers including St. Paul. So one would have to believe that a motley crew of dim-witted fishermen could create such a conspiracy. And Paul, a Jew would never have conceived of a God in the flesh had he not been shown that that in fact is what Jesus is. God is not limited by Jewish rules simply because He revealed himself to the Jews first.

 

[Lapell]

Read Deuteronomy 4:2.

I Read it, but what it says is not to add to or substract from “God’s teachings”, not “the Scriptures”… And how would you KNOW that God’ s teachings derived from the Scriptures are limited to what has been found until the time of the Talmud?
Remember the story about Moses being surprised at Rabbi Akiva’s commentary which the Rabbi said comes from the books of Moses? Not foreseen, but apparently acceptable…

 

[Lapell]

Read Deuteronomy 4:2.

It talks of God’s teachings, not the Scriptures, Ben!

 

[alan1941]

It talks of God’s teachings, not the Scriptures, Ben!

Lapell is right!

 

[alan1941]

Because he was Jewish, and what you claim he said is not Jewish. That’s all.

Ben, You pride yourself on knowing scripture and I am sure you know it well. But using only reason as your guide shows that you are not cognizant. For example God says to Abram in his old age no less that he is to be the father of nations. Reason would tell you that no man of his age or a woman of Sarai’s age could have a baby but faith tells you they did. Reason would tell you that no one can produce the plagues that Moses did but faith does tell you he did. Need I give more examples. God is a god of surprises. Reason tells you it can’t be done. Faith tells you it was done, faith & scripture. Reason & Judaism tells you God cannot become incarnate but God is not bound by the laws of nature or reason or Judaism. God is sovereign & above mans laws and reason. When I asked you to pray I did not presume to ask you to pray to know my truth or our truth but simply to ask with sincerity to know the truth, God’s truth. Abram believed even when reason told him it was not reasonable to sacrifice his only son. Are you willing to be open to whatever God tells you or do you doubt he’ll tell you the truth?

 

[Ben_Masada]

This seems to be a case of circular reasoning. “Because He was Jewish He would not have said this because if He said this He would not be Jewish” But if He was Jewish and also God He would not be restricted by Judaism from saying something that was true nor would being God in the flesh be impossible for one who is God who is sovereign and therefore not limited by the rules of Judaism. Jews did not always believe that Israel was the Messiah unless I am mistaken and there were eyewitnesses to what He said it in at least three of the Gospels. Judaism accepts the testimony of at least two witnesses and here we have three not to mention the twelve apostles, a minion. And Christianity has taught this from the beginning. Note the testimony of the Church fathers including St. Paul. So one would have to believe that a motley crew of dim-witted fishermen could create such a conspiracy. And Paul, a Jew would never have conceived of a God in the flesh had he not been shown that that in fact is what Jesus is. God is not limited by Jewish rules simply because He revealed himself to the Jews first.

**You are too hypothetical in spiritual matters, and it does not work that way.

Judaism accepts the testimony of two witnesses. Jewish witnesses and not the testimony of Hellenistic Gentiles from outside Judaism.

I agree with you that God is not limited by Jewish ruling; but neither is He by Christian ruling. You forgot that one. It means we are back to square one.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

I Read it, but what it says is not to add to or substract from “God’s teachings”, not “the Scriptures”… And how would you KNOW that God’ s teachings derived from the Scriptures are limited to what has been found until the time of the Talmud?
Remember the story about Moses being surprised at Rabbi Akiva’s commentary which the Rabbi said comes from the books of Moses? Not foreseen, but apparently acceptable…

I don’t go by what the Rabbis say but by what is written in the Scriptures. I have a mind of my own.

 

[Ben_Masada]

It talks of God’s teachings, not the Scriptures, Ben!

God’s teachings are written by men in the language of men.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, You pride yourself on knowing scripture and I am sure you know it well. But using only reason as your guide shows that you are not cognizant. For example God says to Abram in his old age no less that he is to be the father of nations. Reason would tell you that no man of his age or a woman of Sarai’s age could have a baby but faith tells you they did. Reason would tell you that no one can produce the plagues that Moses did but faith does tell you he did. Need I give more examples. God is a god of surprises. Reason tells you it can’t be done. Faith tells you it was done, faith & scripture. Reason & Judaism tells you God cannot become incarnate but God is not bound by the laws of nature or reason or Judaism. God is sovereign & above mans laws and reason. When I asked you to pray I did not presume to ask you to pray to know my truth or our truth but simply to ask with sincerity to know the truth, God’s truth. Abram believed even when reason told him it was not reasonable to sacrifice his only son. Are you willing to be open to whatever God tells you or do you doubt he’ll tell you the truth?

**Regarding the ages of Abraham and Sara, it was a custom of ancient peoples to honor the great ones by exaggerating their long life. For example, the great ones of prior to the Flood. The tradition kept on for sometime afterwards as to reach the time of Abraham. The truth though is that by the time Isaac was born, Abraham was about 50 and Sara 40. When she laughed at the mention of her conceiving, it was because she was approaching menopause. Therefore, it was perfectly normal to conceive at her age, as it was for Abraham. Don’t forget that after Sara died Abraham had some more children with Quetura whom he remarried with. (Gen. 25:1,2)

Moses did not produce any plagues. He made use of natural events to enhance his purpose, if you take in consideration the utter superstitious people that the Egyptians were. Things that happen in nature are nevertheless the tools in the “hands” of God to deal with men.

Very good point this of yours that God is not bound by Judaism as we have written that He cannot incarnate. (Deut. 4:15,16) However, you have forgotten that the same God is not bound by Christianity to incarnate because Paul had decided that God did. It means we are back to square one.

Yes Alan, I am entirely open to whatever God wills to tell me, if there is anything else besides the Scriptures that He has already given to me, which is already in my mouth and in my heart, and I am only required to carry it out. (Deut. 20:11-14)**

 

[alan1941]

**You are too hypothetical in spiritual matters, and it does not work that way.

Judaism accepts the testimony of two witnesses. Jewish witnesses and not the testimony of Hellenistic Gentiles from outside Judaism.

I agree with you that God is not limited by Jewish ruling; but neither is He by Christian ruling. You forgot that one. It means we are back to square one.**

I did not mean to imply that the same does not apply to Christians. Of course it does, God is not limited by the Laws of any human group. Matthew & John were Jewish ergo there are the two Jewish witnesses. What do you mean by too hypothetical?

 

[alan1941]

Yes Alan, I am entirely open to whatever God wills to tell me, if there is anything else besides the Scriptures that He has already given to me, which is already in my mouth and in my heart, and I am only required to carry it out. (Deut. 20:11-14)

You seem to discount that God would tell you anything different from your interpretation of scripture which makes it very convenient to avoid God telling you anything different. I don’t presume to know what God would tell you but you do not seem to be open to the possibility that He would tell you something different from what you already hold. It seems to me you are saying, “My mind is made up, case closed”.It is a scary thing to be open to hear something that would shake your fast held belief. It takes courage to be open, courage which you seem to lack, understandably because it is uncomfortable to have ones fast held beliefs shaken or too even take the chance that they might be. Again God will either confirm what you already believe or He will tell you something different, not necessarily what I believe. But He will not tell you anything if you are not open to sacrificing your offspring, i.e. your fast held belief. And by the way, is it not true that all Jews do not hold to your belief that the messiah is Israel. Is it not true that some hold a belief in a personal messiah, e.g. the Chasids who have believed at various times that one of their rabbis was the hoped for messiah like Ba’al Shem Tov? If that is the case, how do you know which of you is right? COLOR=“Blue”]

 

[alan1941]

**Regarding the ages of Abraham and Sara, it was a custom of ancient peoples to honor the great ones by exaggerating their long life. For example, the great ones of prior to the Flood. The tradition kept on for sometime afterwards as to reach the time of Abraham. The truth though is that by the time Isaac was born, Abraham was about 50 and Sara 40. When she laughed at the mention of her conceiving, it was because she was approaching menopause. Therefore, it was perfectly normal to conceive at her age, as it was for Abraham. Don’t forget that after Sara died Abraham had some more children with Quetura whom he remarried with. (Gen. 25:1,2)

Moses did not produce any plagues. He made use of natural events to enhance his purpose, if you take in consideration the utter superstitious people that the Egyptians were. Things that happen in nature are nevertheless the tools in the “hands” of God to deal with men.

**It makes it very convenient to discount all the miracles of the Bible by rationalism. But how do you reason away that God asks Abraham to sacrifice His son and beyond reason Abraham goes all the way until God stops him from sacrificing Isaac?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I did not mean to imply that the same does not apply to Christians. Of course it does, God is not limited by the Laws of any human group. Matthew & John were Jewish ergo there are the two Jewish witnesses. What do you mean by too hypothetical?

**Alan, let me ask you a question: Did Matthew and John apostated from Judaism like Paul did? No, they did not. Therefore, they did not write those gospels that carry their names. Too Hellenistic to be written by Jews loyal to Judaism. Not only Hellenistic but also complete disregard or ignorance of Jewish culture and customs. I bet 101 percent of my word that none of the books of the NT was written by a Jew.

To be hypothetical is to speak through suppositions. For example, “Suppose there was an eyewitness to Jesus’ resurrection, would you become a Christian?” This is to be hypothetical. Or any statement starting with the conditional “if.” **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Yes Alan, I am entirely open to whatever God wills to tell me, if there is anything else besides the Scriptures that He has already given to me, which is already in my mouth and in my heart, and I am only required to carry it out. (Deut. 20:11-14)

You seem to discount that God would tell you anything different from your interpretation of scripture which makes it very convenient to avoid God telling you anything different. I don’t presume to know what God would tell you but you do not seem to be open to the possibility that He would tell you something different from what you already hold. It seems to me you are saying, “My mind is made up, case closed”.It is a scary thing to be open to hear something that would shake your fast held belief. It takes courage to be open, courage which you seem to lack, understandably because it is uncomfortable to have ones fast held beliefs shaken or too even take the chance that they might be. Again God will either confirm what you already believe or He will tell you something different, not necessarily what I believe. But He will not tell you anything if you are not open to sacrificing your offspring, i.e. your fast held belief. And by the way, is it not true that all Jews do not hold to your belief that the messiah is Israel. Is it not true that some hold a belief in a personal messiah, e.g. the Chasids who have believed at various times that one of their rabbis was the hoped for messiah like Ba’al Shem Tov? If that is the case, how do you know which of you is right? COLOR=“Blue”]

**Oh, Alan, most definitely, we still have a lot of Jews who believe in an individual Messiah, especially among the Othodox. But the majory, if you count all the Reform and Conservative movements, there are more, fortunately, who adopt Isaiah’s views of the Collective Messiah. In Judaism, what one believes is less important than what one does. Good deeds are more important than faith. It must be very well known among Christians that we Jews don’t live by faith but by good deeds. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

**Regarding the ages of Abraham and Sara, it was a custom of ancient peoples to honor the great ones by exaggerating their long life. For example, the great ones of prior to the Flood. The tradition kept on for sometime afterwards as to reach the time of Abraham. The truth though is that by the time Isaac was born, Abraham was about 50 and Sara 40. When she laughed at the mention of her conceiving, it was because she was approaching menopause. Therefore, it was perfectly normal to conceive at her age, as it was for Abraham. Don’t forget that after Sara died Abraham had some more children with Quetura whom he remarried with. (Gen. 25:1,2)

Moses did not produce any plagues. He made use of natural events to enhance his purpose, if you take in consideration the utter superstitious people that the Egyptians were. Things that happen in nature are nevertheless the tools in the “hands” of God to deal with men.

**

It makes it very convenient to discount all the miracles of the Bible by rationalism. But how do you reason away that God asks Abraham to sacrifice His son and beyond reason Abraham goes all the way until God stops him from sacrificing Isaac?

I know it is going to sound like a scandal in your mind. But Abraham and Isaac did not move an inch from the place Abraham was having that vision. Everything happened during a vision. Abraham was impressed with how the Pagans around him loved their gods so much as to offer their firstborn in burning sacrifice so that future progeny would be doubly blessed. Then, he had a vision when God showed him through a sacrificial simulation that with Israel it would be different. While for the pagans the first son was sacrificed, for Israel, the animal would redeem the firstborn.

 

[Lapell]

God’s teachings are written by men in the language of men.

And the discovered teachings deriving from the Scriptures are also written in the languages of men without being the Scriptures themselves per se…
Moreover, more teachings are contained in the Scriptures that have not been uncovered (or maybe were left out for various reasons)…

 

[Lapell]

God’s teachings are written by men in the language of men.

Plus there are oral such teachings. In writing them down, some parts of the teaching may have been left out because it failed to come to the mind of the writer. you don’t need to be amnesiac for this to happen, especially where there such a whole lot of material to put into writing…

 

[Lapell]

**Oh, Alan, most definitely, we still have a lot of Jews who believe in an individual Messiah, especially among the Othodox. **

So you don’t consider the kings of Judah to have been individual messiahs? Especially King David?

 

[Lapell]

I thought you would have at least acknowledged the individual messiahship of the Kings of Judah…