L
Lapell
Guest
We are adversaries here, but for all our verbal fights here you deserve my respect nevertheless. May your Adonai Elohim bless you immensely in Yerushalaim.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
L
Lapell
Guest
Even adversaries can mutually show respect to one another…
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Well, God was absolutely ONE for over 3,000 years until Christianity arrived and said, No, God is Trinitarian. Have mercy, Lapell!Just like your believing God is not Trinitarian does not mean God is not because you are a Jew!
Going like a circle if you will, but we are doing it together, Y.!!! Just tells you that what we affirm we can’t per se “prove” though hints CAN point to the truth: it’s a matter of faith here!
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Thanks Lapell. Coming from you, I will indeed be blessed.We are adversaries here, but for all our verbal fights here you deserve my respect nevertheless. May your Adonai Elohim bless you immensely in Yerushalaim.
L
L2P2
Guest
I’ll say this, although please do not drag me into apologetic debate, nor misconstrue what I have to say as impinging on my faith in the Trinity. I am an orthodox Roman Catholic, and I believe in God in the way explained by the Catholic catechism.
The notion of Abram/Abraham and human plurality that the OP advances is a bit beside the point if you look at things via scientific interpretation of the Bible. There are four Hebrew words used as the name of God in the OT – El, Elohim, Yahweh, and Shaddhei. Most scientific interpreters will say that El is one God and Elohim means son of El. Moreover, Yahweh and Shaddei–names that are also used for the Lord in the OT–are taken to be names for entirely different gods. In other words, the residents of ancient Israel were polytheists originally until at some point their writings were collected, written down, and presented as the Scripture of a coherent, monotheistic religion.
In other words, ironically, Judaism begins as a polytheistic religion that becomes monotheistic. I accept that Judaism, as you and others conceive it, is monotheistic despite its polytheistic origins. Why can’t you similarly respect–would not expect you to accept–that Catholic teaching that holds the Trinity is a mystery–plural and one at the same time? The teaching for both religions is that there is one God. Both Judaism and Catholicism are monotheistic religions.
The notion of Abram/Abraham and human plurality that the OP advances is a bit beside the point if you look at things via scientific interpretation of the Bible. There are four Hebrew words used as the name of God in the OT – El, Elohim, Yahweh, and Shaddhei. Most scientific interpreters will say that El is one God and Elohim means son of El. Moreover, Yahweh and Shaddei–names that are also used for the Lord in the OT–are taken to be names for entirely different gods. In other words, the residents of ancient Israel were polytheists originally until at some point their writings were collected, written down, and presented as the Scripture of a coherent, monotheistic religion.
In other words, ironically, Judaism begins as a polytheistic religion that becomes monotheistic. I accept that Judaism, as you and others conceive it, is monotheistic despite its polytheistic origins. Why can’t you similarly respect–would not expect you to accept–that Catholic teaching that holds the Trinity is a mystery–plural and one at the same time? The teaching for both religions is that there is one God. Both Judaism and Catholicism are monotheistic religions.
L
Lapell
Guest
Though Trinitarian, He still remains One, Y.! Always was, still is, and always will be!Well, God was absolutely ONE for over 3,000 years until Christianity arrived and said, No, God is Trinitarian. Have mercy, Lapell!
L
Lapell
Guest
I still maintain what I said in this quote and will to the end.No, it’s not the Christians who decided it. In a case like this, either God is or isn’t. No midway!! I know no passage in the TaNaKH explicitly speaks of the Trinity. But there are implicit references. You deny their meaning to POSSIBLY include an implicit reference to the Trinity. But because you deny it doesn’t automatically mean that you are right even if you are a Jew…
L
Lapell
Guest
I did not choose to have Him described that way. This is how He’s been described ever since the Pentecost after Jesus’ death and resurrection when the Church started (whether they were called Nazarenes or “those of The Way” or Christians after a while, they were the same Church)No, but He cannot be the way you want because you are a Catholic.
L
Lapell
Guest
This too I maintain…Your being a Jew and my being a Catholic have no bearing on how God is. How exactly God is One, which we too say God is BTW, is what we differ on.
And no, it has nothing to do with your Greek mythology because the Greek gods are not “one”, not at all!
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
No, they are not. One God in three is no absolute Unit. Jesus himself left it very clear that God is absolutely One and the Only Lord. Read Mark 12:29. Then, in another occasion, he said that Gentiles worship what they do not understand, while Jews understand what they worship. Why? Because God is pure Spirit, Incorporeal therefore, and to woship Him we must do it in spirit. No wonder, he added, that salvation is from theI’ll say this, although please do not drag me into apologetic debate, nor misconstrue what I have to say as impinging on my faith in the Trinity. I am an orthodox Roman Catholic, and I believe in God in the way explained by the Catholic catechism.
The notion of Abram/Abraham and human plurality that the OP advances is a bit beside the point if you look at things via scientific interpretation of the Bible. There are four Hebrew words used as the name of God in the OT – El, Elohim, Yahweh, and Shaddhei. Most scientific interpreters will say that El is one God and Elohim means son of El. Moreover, Yahweh and Shaddei–names that are also used for the Lord in the OT–are taken to be names for entirely different gods. In other words, the residents of ancient Israel were polytheists originally until at some point their writings were collected, written down, and presented as the Scripture of a coherent, monotheistic religion.
In other words, ironically, Judaism begins as a polytheistic religion that becomes monotheistic. I accept that Judaism, as you and others conceive it, is monotheistic despite its polytheistic origins. Why can’t you similarly respect–would not expect you to accept–that Catholic teaching that holds the Trinity is a mystery–plural and one at the same time? The teaching for both religions is that there is one God. Both Judaism and Catholicism are monotheistic religions.
Jews. Read John 4:22-24.
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
No, they were not. Acts 11:26 can’t be more clear that Christians started with Paul in Antioch, when and where they were called christians FOR THE FIRST TIME. And that was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. So, Nazarenes started as Nazarenes with Jesus, and Christians started as Christians with Paul.I did not choose to have Him described that way. This is how He’s been described ever since the Pentecost after Jesus’ death and resurrection when the Church started (whether they were called Nazarenes or “those of The Way” or Christians after a while, they were the same Church)
L
Lapell
Guest
No such thing as a spurious Bible, dear Y… you should know that!Sorry Lapell, but God is not like a man to change. You are being the victim of a spurious bible.
L
Lapell
Guest
He didn’t say: “Gentiles worship what they do not understand” but to the Samaritan woman:"**You **worship what you don’t understand. We know whom we worship."No, they are not. One God in three is no absolute Unit. Jesus himself left it very clear that God is absolutely One and the Only Lord. Read Mark 12:29. Then, in another occasion, he said that Gentiles worship what they do not understand, while Jews understand what they worship. Why? Because God is pure Spirit, Incorporeal therefore, and to woship Him we must do it in spirit. No wonder, he added, that salvation is from the
Jews. Read John 4:22-24.
“You” might be the Samaritan woman, or the Samaritans, or (yes, as a POSSIBILITY) the Gentiles. But they were in Samaria,not really outside of Israel…
L
Lapell
Guest
That was still the very same Church, Y. Stop believing ennemies of the Church who seek to destroy her.No, they were not. Acts 11:26 can’t be more clear that Christians started with Paul in Antioch, when and where they were called christians FOR THE FIRST TIME. And that was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. So, Nazarenes started as Nazarenes with Jesus, and Christians started as Christians with Paul.
L
Lapell
Guest
Are YOU trying to destroy our Church? We are not using Judaism, neither have the Apostlesw, neither has saint Paul… don’t separate those whom God united!
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
Lapell, please, this is too elementary to build a discussion upon. At the Well of Jacob that day two peoples were locked in a dialog: The Gentiles represented by the Samaritan woman and the Jews represented by Jesus. Think!He didn’t say: “Gentiles worship what they do not understand” but to the Samaritan woman:"**You **worship what you don’t understand. We know whom we worship."
“You” might be the Samaritan woman, or the Samaritans, or (yes, as a POSSIBILITY) the Gentiles. But they were in Samaria,not really outside of Israel…
B
Ben_Masada
Guest
No, I am not trying to destroy your Church. I am trying to defend Judaism from the attacks of Christianity.Are YOU trying to destroy our Church? We are not using Judaism, neither have the Apostlesw, neither has saint Paul… don’t separate those whom God united!
L
Lapell
Guest
Nothing is “too elementary” when it’s about Truth, it keeps the basics close to our minds… Are you pleading to leave the very basics?Lapell, please, this is too elementary to build a discussion upon. At the Well of Jacob that day two peoples were locked in a dialog: The Gentiles represented by the Samaritan woman and the Jews represented by Jesus. Think!
Sorry, but your interpretation of who is there is a narrow one. A thinker would not mind admitting other possibilities. You chose to ignore or discard the other possibilities… too bad, as far as truth-seeking is concerned!
L
L2P2
Guest
You did not answer my remark about Judaism originating as a polytheistic religion.No, they are not. One God in three is no absolute Unit. Jesus himself left it very clear that God is absolutely One and the Only Lord. Read Mark 12:29. Then, in another occasion, he said that Gentiles worship what they do not understand, while Jews understand what they worship. Why? Because God is pure Spirit, Incorporeal therefore, and to woship Him we must do it in spirit. No wonder, he added, that salvation is from the
Jews. Read John 4:22-24.
L
Lapell
Guest
I would think “Judaism” can take care of herself.No, I am not trying to destroy your Church. I am trying to defend Judaism from the attacks of Christianity.
It may be that there were many Christian individuals who attacked Judaism and the Jews. Not “Christianity” herself! No more than Judaism would have attacked the Christian Faith, though some Jews have attacked Christianity, at least by mouth and by pen…
- Status
- Not open for further replies.