Why Elohim if God is Absolutely One?

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,
I’d like to ask you a few questions, and please answer it from a Jewish perspective:

1. Is God an Infinite Being from a Jewish perspective?
2. Did this Infinite Being Create the World we live in, and everything around beyond it?
3. How did the Infinite Being Create the World and everything around and beyond it?
4. Is this Infinite Being a male or female?, If NO, then Who was this Infinite Being?

Thanks

Seeker

**1. Yes, and the only Eternal Being.

1. Yes He did create the whole of the Universe.
2. Nobody knows, but the very first thing which developed as to become the whole Universe must have been created out of nothing.
3. God cannot be male or female because He is Incorporeal. A Pure Spiritual Being. We can never know Who is this Infinite Being. Otherwise we would all perish, because to know God is what life is all about.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,
let me ask you a couple of questions,

1. how do u know that Mathew and John did not “apostate” from Judaism?, where in your scriptures does reference them?
2. can you prove to me that Paul “apostated” from Judaism?

**I do not have anything in the NT to the effect that Matthew and John apostated from Judaism. On the contrary, yes.

Now, with regards to Paul, the NT is loaded with quotations to the effect that he apostated
from Judaism. The converts of the Apostles or Nazarenes would become staunch deffenders of the Law. (Acts 21:20) While Paul would teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to renounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) This is an act of apostasy from Judaism. Then, he proclaimed loud and clear that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross. This is a declaration of apostasy from Judaism.

Then, he wreaked a havoc in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. That’s not only apostasy but also heresy, let alone idolatry. And just another one to set the climax of the piramid, he established a policy of Replacement Theology which has caused all sorts of troubles to the Jewish People up to this very day. (Gal. 4:21-31) **

 

[L2P2]

I’ve said all I have to say, I’m afraid. There is a great book on the problem of evil within Christianity and the development of the idea of Satan. It’s called The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, a professor at Princeton, and she discusses the logical dilemma of evil within monotheism.

 

[Sara_Ayling]

Christians in general misunderstand the word Elohim when using it as an evidence for plurality in God. Trinity, that is. As time can be considered chronologically, and also psychologically, a word can also be looked at grammatically in terms of plurality of itself or psychologically as the plural related to it. I’ll explain in more simpler words.

The word Elohim does mean plural but not of itself. I mean, of the subject, but of the object it points to. For example, Elohim barah et hashamaim…" If Elohim, the subject was a word meant to be itself in the plural, the verb would by necessity have to follow the plural as in “baru,” (created).

Ben,
is it possible that the word Elohim is a reference to El being the creator of all, which would be plural, just like Abram became Abraham when he became the father of so many? Personally, I believe in the plurality of El, but that’s simply a matter of belief. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to Hebrew, so I don’t know if that made any sense.

 

[elvisman]

I do not have anything in the NT to the effect that Matthew and John apostated from Judaism. On the contrary, yes.

Now, with regards to Paul, the NT is loaded with quotations to the effect that he apostated
from Judaism. The converts of the Apostles or Nazarenes would become staunch deffenders of the Law. (Acts 21:20) While Paul would teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to renounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) This is an act of apostasy from Judaism. Then, he proclaimed loud and clear that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross. This is a declaration of apostasy from Judaism.

**Then, he wreaked a havoc in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. That’s not only apostasy but also heresy, let alone idolatry. And just another one to set the climax of the piramid, he established a policy of Replacement Theology which has caused all sorts of troubles to the Jewish People up to this very day. (Gal. 4:21-31) **

Oh, Ben - here you go again with your "Paul started Chriatianity with his policy of Replacement Thology."

I already proved you wrong on another thread not long ago and showed you that Christianity is not "apostate" from Christianity nor a "replacement theology." It’s the FULFILLMENT of Judaism.

Do I need to show you the over 300 OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled again?

 

[Seeker]

**1. Yes, and the only Eternal Being.

1. Yes He did create the whole of the Universe.
2. Nobody knows, but the very first thing which developed as to become the whole Universe must have been created out of nothing.
3. God cannot be male or female because He is Incorporeal. A Pure Spiritual Being. We can never know Who is this Infinite Being. Otherwise we would all perish, because to know God is what life is all about.**

Thankyou Ben for answering my questions. so let’s try and understand what u wrote and put it in perspective
So, you believe that there is ONE Eternal Infinite Being, and that One Infinite Eternal Being

1. Is a Creator, because according HE created the whole universe
2. Has a Speech/Word, in order to create
   Note:
   In my original question I asked you how the Infinite Being created the world, and maybe i needed to be a little clearer, what i meant to ask you was, what mode of communication did the Infinite Being use?. Fogive me, but I took the liberty to guess what u would have said, , which is “He created this world/universe through his speech/word” (see Gen 1:3-26). If this is not your answer/position, then please tell me what mode of communication did the Infinite Being use to create this universe?
3. He is a Spiritual Being, or a Spirit, as HE is Incorporeal, because He cannot be male or female

So based on the answers above, assuming you believe the Infinite Being created the world/universe through his speech/Word, i.e.Gen 1:3-26 God said " ", what is the difference between what you believe as a Jew and what we as Christians beleive with regards to the Trinity??, The Trinity is exactly what you described above, only that in Trinitarian language we say

One GOD in 3 Eternal Co-Equal Persons

1. Father = Creator (Biblical reference Gen 1:1)
   2.Son = Word (Biblical Reference Gen 1:3-26)
2. Holy Spirit = Spirit (Biblical Reference Gen 1:2)

And there are a mutlitude of other Bibilical references in both the Old and New Testaments

I’d like to hear your thoughts on what I have stated above.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ve said all I have to say, I’m afraid. There is a great book on the problem of evil within Christianity and the development of the idea of Satan. It’s called The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, a professor at Princeton, and she discusses the logical dilemma of evil within monotheism.

**Monotheism does not go together with the existence of Satan. God is absolutely One, and Incorporeal at that. Evil does not exist. Everything God created, “And He saw that it was good.” Evil is just a word to explain the absence of good. Like darkness is another to explain the absence of light.

God created man good, but he went after many calculations. (Eccle. 7:29) It means, he took advantage of the absence of good and ill-used his freewill by acquiring the habit to create for himself a characteristic inclination which became known as evil.

And regarding Satan as a being, this is a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people’s feelings, with the purpose to exploit them and make a living out of the naives of this world. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,
is it possible that the word Elohim is a reference to El being the creator of all, which would be plural, just like Abram became Abraham when he became the father of so many? Personally, I believe in the plurality of El, but that’s simply a matter of belief. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to Hebrew, so I don’t know if that made any sense.

**No Sara, it is not possible that the word Elohim could be a reference to El. The plural of El is Elim, and not Elohim. “Im” is a sufix that indicates plurality in Hebrew but there are many words which end in “im” and mean no plurality, like Ephraim, Yerushalaim, etc.

Abram to Abraham cannot be compared with El to Elim. A comparison is possible but with El to Elohim. Abram when he was alone and the promise had not been fulfilled yet. Abraham when he had become the father of many tribes. El when the Hebrews thought that their God was the God of Israel only. Elohim when they realized that their God was the God of the whole world, all the nations of the world.**

 

[Seeker]

**Monotheism does not go together with the existence of Satan. God is absolutely One, and Incorporeal at that. Evil does not exist. Everything God created, “And He saw that it was good.” Evil is just a word to explain the absence of good. Like darkness is another to explain the absence of light.

God created man good, but he went after many calculations. (Eccle. 7:29) It means, he took advantage of the absence of good and ill-used his freewill by acquiring the habit to create for himself a characteristic inclination which became known as evil.

And regarding Satan as a being, this is a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people’s feelings, with the purpose to exploit them and make a living out of the naives of this world. **

Ben,
what do u mean by GOD is “absolutely” one?, do you mean One in Being and Person, or just One in Being?

Your analogy of explaining evil as being the absence of good, like darkness is the absence of light, is not a good analogy, reason, light and darkeness were both created (Gen 1: 3-5)
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day

To me GOD=Good , so anything not good is NOT GOD. And so evil to me is an amplified term used to reference the highest level of that which is “not good”, and it is usually associated with an act. However I believe that “free will” is the cause of “not good” or “not God”, and it was GOD that gave us free will. And so if He gave us free will, then He created it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben,
what do u mean by GOD is “absolutely” one?, do you mean One in Being and Person, or just One in Being?

Your analogy of explaining evil as being the absence of good, like darkness is the absence of light, is not a good analogy, reason, light and darkeness were both created (Gen 1: 3-5)
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day

To me GOD=Good , so anything not good is NOT GOD. And so evil to me is an amplified term used to reference the highest level of that which is “not good”, and it is usually associated with an act. However I believe that “free will” is the cause of “not good” or “not God”, and it was GOD that gave us free will. And so if He gave us free will, then He created it.

**By God being absolutely One I mean one only Spiritual Being. Not two or three persons. And being Incorporeal at that, there can’t be plurality in incorporeality. Jesus himself said in Mark 12:29 that God is One and the Only Lord.

The only way to create darkness is by removing the light. The Genesis account of day and night is an allegory. Darkness per se is not meant in the separation of day and night, because luminares were created to shine in the sky during the night too.**

 

[SpiritualBeing]

Christians in general misunderstand the word Elohim when using it as an evidence for plurality in God. Trinity, that is. As time can be considered chronologically, and also psychologically, a word can also be looked at grammatically in terms of plurality of itself or psychologically as the plural related to it. I’ll explain in more simpler words.

The word Elohim does mean plural but not of itself. I mean, of the subject, but of the object it points to. For example, Elohim barah et hashamaim…" If Elohim, the subject was a word meant to be itself in the plural, the verb would by necessity have to follow the plural as in “baru,” (created).

Let’s take Abraham as an example to illustrate the case. Afterwards we will return to
Elohim. We all know that originally, Abraham’s name was Abram, and the name change was effected by occasion of the Covenant between himself and God, when the reason for the change was that Abraham would be the father of a host of nations. (Gen. 17:4,5) So, does the word Abraham mean plural? Yes, but not of the subject (Abraham) who continued to be one person. However, Abraham meant plural
but of the object or “many nations.”

Now, back to Elohim, there was a time in the very beginning, when the Hebrews considered God to be a local God: The God of the Hebrews, in opposite to the gods of the other nations. When they came to the enlightenment or understanding that God was absolutely One, and that He was the God of the whole Earth, the God of all the nations, they also came to understand that the plurality of Elohim was related to the object (the nations) and not of the subject, or Himself, Who remained absolutely One.

Grammatically, the singular for God is El, and the plural Elim, and not Elohim. Therefore, there is no plurality in Elohim per se but in what He relates to. The conclusion is that God is absolutely One and not a Trinity or Duality. Besides, God is also incorporeal, and there can be no plurality in incorporeality.

Ben:

Elohim means God of gods.Angels and men who are led by God are called little gods. They are an image and likeness of God. All angels get their power from God, not from themselves.They are forms of good and turth, which is the essence of God. God is good itself and truth itself.

William

 

[Ben_Masada]

Elohim means God of gods.Angels and men who are led by God are called little gods. They are an image and likeness of God. All angels get their power from God, not from themselves.They are forms of good and turth, which is the essence of God. God is good itself and truth itself.

William

**Behold! I agree with your first statement. Elohim does mean God of “gods.” God of all the nations. God of all peoples. But angels and men are not an image and likeness of God, because God does not have an image, and nothing can be likened unto God. And angels are not forms; they are emanations. **

 

[Lapell]

**I do not have anything in the NT to the effect that Matthew and John apostated from Judaism. On the contrary, yes.

Now, with regards to Paul, the NT is loaded with quotations to the effect that he apostated
from Judaism. The converts of the Apostles or Nazarenes would become staunch deffenders of the Law. (Acts 21:20) While Paul would teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to renounce the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) This is an act of apostasy from Judaism. Then, he proclaimed loud and clear that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross. This is a declaration of apostasy from Judaism.

Then, he wreaked a havoc in Jerusalem preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God, and that he had resurrected. That’s not only apostasy but also heresy, let alone idolatry. And just another one to set the climax of the piramid, he established a policy of Replacement Theology which has caused all sorts of troubles to the Jewish People up to this very day. (Gal. 4:21-31) **

Mr. Ben Masada, we’ve been through this before. This was some accusations a number of zealous Jews did against Paul! They drew wrong conclusions from Paul’s teachings and letters, just as Peter said some people were doing in 2 Peter 3, 15-16. And I thought Paul was not the only one speaking in synagogues who would draw hot reaction from some of those attending… If you were not a Pharisee and preached in a synagogue of another denomination, you could face such reaction too! Same if you were a Pharisee preaching in a non-Pharisee synagogue…

 

[Lapell]

**Behold! I agree with your first statement. Elohim does mean God of “gods.” God of all the nations. God of all peoples. But angels and men are not an image and likeness of God, because God does not have an image, and nothing can be likened unto God. And angels are not forms; they are emanations. **

Invisible beings, in fact.

 

[Lapell]

**By God being absolutely One I mean one only Spiritual Being. Not two or three persons. And being Incorporeal at that, there can’t be plurality in incorporeality. Jesus himself said in Mark 12:29 that God is One and the Only Lord.

The only way to create darkness is by removing the light. The Genesis account of day and night is an allegory. Darkness per se is not meant in the separation of day and night, because luminares were created to shine in the sky during the night too.**

So, light and darkness in a soul is also an allegory? Still it tells us of real things…

 

[Angelo_Michael]

…]

I think your analysis is interesting, and I agree with you that Christians often misrepresent God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit in the Trinity. And I think your analogy of Abraham can be applied in another way:

When Abraham had a son with Hagar, was he any less himself after than before?
When he had a son with Sarah, was Abraham any less himself after than before?
Or, because Abraham had many servants, did that make him less himself than before he had them?

And so it is with God in that all the prophets until Christ did not make Him less of a God. And Christ Himself was always with God just like it was, (if one is willing to accept it), always God’s will to grant unto Abraham and Sarah a son; that [t]he[y] might be like unto Him. Also, the offering of Isaac by Abraham is intended to parallel with God’s offering of Christ; and Christ’s offering is the Promise of God unto Abraham, (and thru him to all peoples and nations), that whereunto Abraham chose to prophetically emulate God, that therefore God, thru Christ, would allow Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et al., and all believers, to continue life for an eternity.

Consider Isaiah 29:
14: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15: Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16: Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

and John 17:
1: These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6: I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7: Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8: For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9: I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10: And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18: As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19: And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26: And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No kidding - this thread hasn’t yet died?

Jesus fulfilled the scriptures.

There are many other things to consider in scriptures regarding Jesus as God.
And i have faith that when i return in 4 months, this thread will still be going.
SO if i remember - [whenever i can] i will bring in the scriptures.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

…]

It seems that your use of “Judas” to imply “traitor” in your signature is a derogatory comment toward any and all people bearing that name; whether living now, already having lived, or yet to live.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Mr. Ben Masada, we’ve been through this before. This was some accusations a number of zealous Jews did against Paul! They drew wrong conclusions from Paul’s teachings and letters, just as Peter said some people were doing in 2 Peter 3, 15-16. And I thought Paul was not the only one speaking in synagogues who would draw hot reaction from some of those attending… If you were not a Pharisee and preached in a synagogue of another denomination, you could face such reaction too! Same if you were a Pharisee preaching in a non-Pharisee synagogue…

Good! Now, show me Paul’s defense, if those were accusations of zealous Jews. You won’t find him excusing or defending himself of the accusations. It proves that they were true. If you deny something said in a post, you must be ready to produce a quotation to substantiate your denial. Otherwise, it will have no credibility.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Invisible beings, in fact.

No, the only Invisible Being there is, It is God Himself. Angels are invisible emantions or influences.