Why embrace change?

[Peeps]

OK. I was only relating what I had seen. I also have seen women dancing up and down the aisles, accompanied by a huge projected music video at the same time. Further, in the local Catholic church, there was a Mass in honor of the Chinese New Year. During the Mass, a large dragon puppet was snaking throughout the church and we were told that if we touched the (puppet) dragon, we would get good luck.
A few of my posts have been flagged and deleted already, so I am reluctant to go into further detail. I don’t want to offend anyone. I am only trying to answer, at least partially, the question asked about what changes you don’t like.
Some people like these changes, which is OK. I am just giving my personal opinion and I hope that these answers are not annoying, but I can understand why you might not like them.

I think you have to be careful about assuming that abuses that you see regularly in your area of the U.S. are also common in the rest of the U.S.

I’ve traveled quite a bit, too (throughout the U.S.), and the one place where I have seen really bad stuff (e.g., dancers, the priest drinking coffee while saying his homily and performing the consecration!–yes, he had a steaming cup of java sitting on the altar!), was in the Minneapolis area.

But in all the other places I have attended Mass, I have not seen abuses. In my diocese, we never see them. The closest I’ve seen to an “abuse” is when the priest of one of the small town parishes provided the music (played piano and sang the Mass responses)–frankly, I was touched that rather than doing a music-less Mass, he was willing to do the extra work! (I love music, and I play organ/piano in several parishes, and I would have been glad to play if I had known there was a need!).

So perhaps if you are suffering over the abuses that you see regularly, you might want to consider a move. It’s hard to leave your home and familiar surroundings, but it might be good for your soul to be able to experience reverent, abuse-free Masses every time you serve at Mass.

I live in Northern Illinois, by the way, if you’re looking for a good place to live. But Illinois itself is a disaster (the state will be broke/underwater by 2028 if nothing is done about the pension crisis, and nothing will be done unless the State Constitution is amended), so it might be wiser to move to extreme Southern Wisconsin (Janesville, Beloit, Monroe, etc.) and travel across the border to our area for church, although from what I have seen of Wisconsin, their Masses are even more reverently-done with more traditional trappings than ours!

Godspeed to you in your search for a reverent Mass.

 

[fhansen]

Most of those are peripherals-external minor practices that have nothing directly to do with spirituality. And, they, themselves, were mainly developed over time, by changes. I honestly think God doesn’t want us stuck on human traditions that really shouldn’t be impressing us much anyway. Reverence was and can be practiced without the use of a foreign language, for example. And the lack of reverence has to do with changes in culture and faith, not with liturgies.

 

[stpurl]

Well, not exactly. As a priest I know and like has mentioned, "We ARE our rites’. Andso-called peripherals or minor practices. . .things like, say, kneeling (which induces humility), do indeed have an effect on spirituality. Change can be a deepening, not simply a reaction or something that just rises spontaneously. I think God wants us to respect traditions that may be professed by humans but which we have to be careful to realize may be the human expression of the Divine Impulse.

A sacred language may not be deemed necessary to John or Jane in their view of what language, liturgy, etc. mean to them, but it might be something very necessary in the grand scheme of things. John and Jane need to be careful not to limit God to what they themselves want to do or what they themselves think here in AD 2019.

And yes, lack of reverence has to do with changes in culture and faith which do include the changes and the practices of liturgies.

 

[fhansen]

Well, not exactly. As a priest I know and like has mentioned, "We ARE our rites’. Andso-called peripherals or minor practices. . .things like, say, kneeling (which induces humility), do indeed have an effect on spirituality. Change can be a deepening, not simply a reaction or something that just rises spontaneously. I think God wants us to respect traditions that may be professed by humans but which we have to be careful to realize may be the human expression of the Divine Impulse.

Thank you for your response Father, even if I might see it as a bit of wishful and misdirected thinking. If we ARE our rites, what I experienced growing up in the pre-Vat II era, like many others, was a sort of “mechanical piety”. People, speaking generally, were inherently more obedient and humble, less rebellious and “free”-thinking during and before that time, which wasn’t necessarily bad by any means and yet was simply a very different cultural climate in any case compared to today. As far as the “Divine Impulse” is concerned, I’m sure the Roman Catholic Church has a better handle on that than yourself and I -and has in fact addressed these liturgical matters well in her last ecumenical council.

A sacred language may not be deemed necessary to John or Jane in their view of what language, liturgy, etc. mean to them, but it might be something very necessary in the grand scheme of things. John and Jane need to be careful not to limit God to what they themselves want to do or what they themselves think here in AD 2019.

The sacred language was simply the Roman Empire vernacular. Maybe angels and other heavenly inhabitants are speaking it now but I doubt it. Or maybe we should wonder why Jesus clung to that Aramaic stuff for the most part as far as we know. Anyway, excuse me if your view seems a bit parochial; Fr John and Sr Jane need to be careful not to limit God to what they themselves want to do or what they themselves think here in AD 2019. To be honest the return to “traditional” practice seems to border on legalism to me, and I can’t help but wonder-and fear- if the forest doesn’t get missed for the trees in the process.

 

[TK421]

Why does it seem that Catholics, or the majority of the Catholics that are vocal, are so eager to make changes within the church?

We have the most beautiful, powerful and established doctrines, liturgies and practices in the world. The very same ones that spread the gospel throughout the entire world in times much harder than we have now.
And yet sometimes it seems people would just ditch all of that in an attempt to fix what is not broken.
As a former Protestant this deeply saddens me, for I have seen where those (changes) lead. Whether intentionally or not.

This is fantasy. The Church is infested with thousands of problems that need fixed or improved, including areas that are a grave matter. It’s better than every other institution that has ever existed but that isn’t the same thing as saying that nothing needs to change.

There are thousands of people that have been canonized. From that number, give me an example of one of them (just one: pick any one) who didn’t dedicate their life to trying to change.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I am now reading Bishop Schneider’s new book Christus Vincit. It to us a phenomenal book

Reading this right now also. I agree it is awesome. Highly recommend it.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

A sacred language may not be deemed necessary to John or Jane in their view of what language, liturgy, etc. mean to them, but it might be something very necessary in the grand scheme of things.

Excellent point. We tend as humans to think what is happening to us in our time is most important and will always stay as it is but we forget the whole picture, God’s will and what He feels is important to generations to come.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Why does it seem that Catholics, or the majority of the Catholics that are vocal, are so eager to make changes within the church?

We have the most beautiful, powerful and established doctrines, liturgies and practices in the world. The very same ones that spread the gospel throughout the entire world in times much harder than we have now.
And yet sometimes it seems people would just ditch all of that in an attempt to fix what is not broken.

I think your comment, the majority of the Catholics that are vocal, is a key point here. As the world becomes more and more against the Catholic church, you will hear more and more voices from the world, who may say they are Catholic, asking for changes. Changes they say will get the Church up in line with the world. As Aquinas11 said, they are doing it in the name of ecumenism. Due to ecumenism, many have lost the understanding of salvation. Thing to remember Catholicism is always going to be attacked inside and outside but I am noticing something else happening, a generation coming up behind us that is ready to stand by and stand up for the Church and bring back or keep our beautiful traditions. I do agree we have the most beautiful Church.

As a former Protestant this deeply saddens me, for I have seen where those (changes) lead. Whether intentionally or not.

Former protestant here also and I know what you mean. God will always protect His Church, though.

The current cover of “Christianity Today” (a magazine founded by Billy Graham and targeted primarily to Evangelical Protestants) features a beautiful portrait of Mary, the First Christian.

Protestants see and honor Mary as the first Christian but not the Blessed Mother Ever Virgin.

In our city, many of the Evangelical churches have services featuring chant, Latin, incense, lectio divina , recitation of the Creeds, veils worn by women, kneeling in prayer, praying with beads (not the St. Dominc Rosary we are familiar with, but one featuring the Our Father and other prayers from the Bible), and also confession (not to a priest, but to fellow believers–hey, give 'em a break! It’s a step in the right direction!)

This sounds pretty rare or unique to denominations that are possibly already pretty close to Catholicism. I know a couple of evangelical non-denominational churches like that but that is few.

In my protestant years I found that most protestant churches were throwing out anything and everything that resembled Catholicism or any type of main line Christianity.

 

[Peeps]

In my protestant years I found that most protestant churches were throwing out anything and everything that resembled Catholicism or any type of main line Christianity.

I’m sure many Evangelical Protestant churches, especially those that lean towards fundamentalism, still do this.

But others are doing the usual Evangelical Protestant thing, which is to seek yet another external “experience” that will lead them to a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. So they try the “ancient” or “traditional” Christian practices, telling themselves that these practices were done by the earliest Christians. Obviously they don’t know enough church history to realize that the earliest Christians were Catholic!

So we can shake our heads and wait for the “high” of the chant, lectio divina, etc. to wear off, and the Evangelical Protestant starts searching for their next “experience” that will help them to “be fed.” (And, just my opinion, but I have come to believe that some Catholics do this same thing–go from Catholic “experience” to Catholic “experience” looking for more “high” in their spiritual life.)

OR–we can rejoice that the Evangelical Protestant is on the right track and pray that their experimentation with Catholic practices will help them to find their way “home”. I know I have mentioned before on CAF that my husband got interested in praying with beads; i.e., a Rosary, before he ever even considered Catholicism. A woman on a bus that we took to the March for Life back in the 1980s asked us if she could pray a Rosary for our children, and we agreed, and I believe that this was the start of our journey to Catholicism. The Rosary was a stepping stone, and because the Rosary is the tool that the Blessed Mother gave us and she is constantly blessing those who use it for prayer, my husband and I are now Catholics (since 2004).

 

[MagdalenaRita]

So they try the “ancient” or “traditional” Christian practices, telling themselves that these practices were done by the earliest Christians. Obviously they don’t know enough church history to realize that the earliest Christians were Catholic!

So we can shake our heads and wait for the “high” of the chant, lectio divina, etc. to wear off, and the Evangelical Protestant starts searching for their next “experience” that will help them to “be fed.”

I do see what you mean here. I was attending an evangelical church for a while and the pastor wanted to try something that he heard Willow Creek tried once and that was to ask the congregation before receiving the wafer not to receive if they were not in right relationship with Christ. It only lasted a couple of times but they probably picked it up from Catholicism somehow. A handful of people chose not to receive that day.

 

[Peeps]

I do see what you mean here. I was attending an evangelical church for a while and the pastor wanted to try something that he heard Willow Creek tried once and that was to ask the congregation before receiving the wafer not to receive if they were not in right relationship with Christ. It only lasted a couple of times but they probably picked it up from Catholicism somehow. A handful of people chose not to receive that day.

That’s interesting.

I grew up with that approach to Communion services. We were told, in stern tones, by the pastor, that if we were guilty of sin that we had not confessed to the Lord, AND if we had something against a brother or sister (not just family, but anyone), OR if they had something against us, that we should NOT receive Communion because we were heaping d.mnation on our souls

So for our church, Communion was a very, very serious time. I testify that many times, I saw people leave their pews, approach someone else in the church, and both would leave the room and come back later arm in arm.

In my Evangelical Protestant church, a communion service–from start to end of communion, generally lasted at least a half hour. It was a LOOONG service, on top of all the other things that happened in the worship service–Call to Worship, Opening Hymn, Welcome, Greeting our fellow Christians, Pastoral Prayer (at least five minutes long), Choir Anthem, Offering (no hymn, but an instrumental offertory was played, usually organ or piano), special music (usually a solo accompanied by organ or piano), Bible reading, and finally, the sermon (or “mesage”), which lasted at LEAST a half hour, and usually 45 minutes. And on Communion Sundays (every second Sunday), add another half hour for the Communion service!

Whew!

But my point is, in the Protestant church where I grew up, Communion was not to be received unless you were in a right relationship with God and with others.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

But my point is, in the Protestant church where I grew up, Communion was not to be received unless you were in a right relationship with God and with others.

That is nice. Some protestant churches do communion better than others.

 

[Peeps]

That is nice. Some protestant churches do communion better than others.

It’s possible that this “Communion reverence” was because my church was a Swedish Baptist Church, and many of the Swedes in the church had Lutheran relatives and friends. In the Lutheran church (at least back then), Holy Communion is approached much like Catholic approach it, and also, the Lutherans (at least back then) believed that Jesus is Truly Present in the Communion bread and wine.

So perhaps my Swedish Baptist church was under pressure to approach Communion services with at least an equal reverence that the Lutherans did.

I’m very sorry to say that my Swedish Baptist church has changed a great deal, for the worse, and is much more “liberal” now. And not all the Evangelical Protestant churches are doing a Communion Service on a regular basis–some are only doing a Communion service once or twice a year, and some are leaving Communion bread and grape juice out all the time and inviting their members and friends to “help themselves.” So sad.

 

[Lea101]

Further, in the local Catholic church, there was a Mass in honor of the Chinese New Year. During the Mass, a large dragon puppet was snaking throughout the church and we were told that if we touched the (puppet) dragon, we would get good luck.

I’m from a Chinese majority country and that’s weird. We have a Chinese New Year Mass but we just have mandarin oranges blessed.

 

[Mac]

Many of these examples are not changes , they are done in disobedience! The Church calls for preferance of gregorian chant,
and condemns liturgical dance, and there is not one document from the church comanding or allowing clown mass or any other ridiculous kind of mass.

 

[TryingtoGainFaith]

Only those who are under Liberals/devils’ spell are incessant about a change. After all, this is ‘the’ religion which convinced the mightiest in all categories of human excellence, be it power, intellect or spirituality…

 

[EnglishTeacher]

my church was a Swedish Baptist Church,

Is it connected in any way to the Evangelical Covenant Church? They also have Swedish roots and broke away from the Lutheran denomination. Just curious.

 

[Peeps]

Is it connected in any way to the Evangelical Covenant Church? They also have Swedish roots and broke away from the Lutheran denomination. Just curious.

I’m sure that somewhere back in the history, the two denominations were connected in some way.

I play piano for an Evangelical Covenant Church, and I have to admit, it feels like home! We sing Tryggarre kan ingen vara several times a year!

 

[Mary888]

St. Peter wasn’t holding the EF, OF, or any of the EO DLs. He definitely spoke Hebrew and not Latin. So a lot of changes happened within the Church.
The question is not about changes happening but rather why are they happening and if they bear good fruits for the Faith. To change just to please this or that faction of activists, or to change just to make the Church more acceptable to the world (the world who will never accept the Church as Christ warned us anyway) are wrong reasons for change.
A change that explains faith better to people is a good change.
It also depends on the gravity of changes invoked.
Who decides? The people or the Synod? Is the Church a democracy? Because people who want their voice heard because they want this or that, only muster to invoke an even deeper change than those which they are trying to prevent by bringing back certain rites and clothes, and turn it upside down completely into a democracy where Vox populus vox Dei! And the sad truth is that they will lose the elections after they manage to turn the Pope and the Synod into a House of Representatives, because the majority of people obviously prefers looser forms of worshipping where they can be creative and interactive (because the world teaches us to be creative and accuses us when we are not), but they refuse to admit it because they want those details to be brought back so badly it hurts. I don’t think the Rad Trads who experience desperation are having a “download from God” the same way those who feel it doesn’t matter how we worship all is well and pink and gold are having a download from Him either. But both sides are receiving downloads…

 

[OraLabora]

Really any changes… obviously the big ones, communion in the hand, liturgy, music etc…, additions in the Catechism.
But really it could be any change that impacts the mass, changes the traditions.

None of these are doctrines; additions to the Catechism come from development of doctrine, or evolution of disciplines, not from changing old doctrines.

I guess mostly style but both. Style cannot continuously change without impacting substance. This seems apparent in the practices that have ensued since Vatican 2.

The liturgical changes you decry started long before Vatican II. The Liturgical Movement started with Dom Prosper Guéranger, father of the modern liturgical movement, and abbot of Solesmes, in the mid-19th Century. It picked up steam under Pius X, gained momentum under Pius XII, and reached its apex with Vatican II. Vatican II was not the instigator, it was the result. Some of the changes in this 100-year period:

• Restoration of Gregorian chant by Solesmes, resulting in the Vatican Edition of the Roman Gradual in 1908 (Pius X and Solesmes; it did not have “pride of place” prior to then and had become denatured)
• Major reform of the Divine Office in 1910, going from ~250 psalms → 150 psalms per week, Pius X
• Dialog Mass, 1922, (Pius XI?)
• Creation of the Pian Commission to study liturgical reform, headed by Annibale Bugnini, mid-1940s, under Pius XII
• experimentation with versus populum liturgy at Sant Anselmo in Rome in the '40s (Pius XII)
• Reform of the Holy Week liturgy, 1955, under Pius XII
• Reform of the rubrics for Mass and the Divine Office, simplification of the classes of feasts, elimination of Octaves, mid-50s to early 60s under Pius XII, John XXIII
• Experimentation with vernacular Mass in the 1960s, Paul VI
• Promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae and Liturgia Horarum in 1970, St. Paul VI.
• Restoration of the permanent diaconate, 1960s, St. Paul VI.

It was not the train wreck traditionalists make it out to be but a 100 or so year well thought-out process. Not to mention that the First Vatican Council at Trent in the 1500s also resulted in massive change to the Liturgy, reducing the number of approved liturgies to just a handful.

Of course some prefer that the liturgy becomes frozen in time. But that has never been the case in the Church; liturgy and sacred music has always evolved at a variable pace. In the case of Gregorian chant it devolved from its origins around the 10th century to a shadow of its former self by the early 19th, which is why Solesmes sought to restore it with the sponsorship of popes. In fact today’s “Gregorian” chant is not chant as it was in the 10th to 12th centuries, but as Solesmes imagined it was like back then; and still to this day study of it evolves and changes are made.

This is just a summary of the reform processes. Hopefully it should show you that this is nothing new in the Church.