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Paul_Edwards
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Nice nick name after a great Theologian Aquinas
If only people today would study the writings of St Thomas Aquinas more that would be incredible.
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If only people today would study the writings of St Thomas Aquinas more that would be incredible.
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OurLadyofSorrows
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@paul-edwards apologies for reading that wrongly.
The Roman governors had to give final say so for the Killing of Christ, who was not killed on the Jewish way of stoning, but in the Roman way of crucifixion of rebels , terrorists and slaves. Jews could never have legally killed a person by crucifixion. Torah contains laws of how a person can be killed. Crucifixion is not in the Torah.
The Roman governors had to give final say so for the Killing of Christ, who was not killed on the Jewish way of stoning, but in the Roman way of crucifixion of rebels , terrorists and slaves. Jews could never have legally killed a person by crucifixion. Torah contains laws of how a person can be killed. Crucifixion is not in the Torah.
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Paul_Edwards
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The reference was to the fact that the username of the poster was Aquinas. Which statement are you referring to? While Aquinas was occasionally in error (although rarely), Scripture is never in error. The statement above is from the sacred scriptures.
We must reject the persecution of course, but nevertheless we must also accept the facts. The apostles were able to accept these facts without persecuting the Jews. In fact it was more the other way around, the first century christians were afraid of the Jews based on past experience (John 7:13; 9:22; 19:38; 20:29; Acts 23:25)
Jesus was quite clear to Pilate that those who handed him over bore the greater sin.
We do not blame the Jews as an entire people but it was Jews who conspired to kill him and Jews who demanded of Pilate his crucifixion. Like it or not, at least some Jews were involved.
In fact Scripture clearly states who were responsible: the inhabitants of Jerusalem and their rulers. Acts 13:17. So not all Jews but the Jerusalem locals and the Sanhedrin.
We do not blame the Jews as an entire people but it was Jews who conspired to kill him and Jews who demanded of Pilate his crucifixion. Like it or not, at least some Jews were involved.
In fact Scripture clearly states who were responsible: the inhabitants of Jerusalem and their rulers. Acts 13:17. So not all Jews but the Jerusalem locals and the Sanhedrin.
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Paul_Edwards
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Exactly Porthos11. And itās by Baptism that this guilt or association is washed away, thatās why the apostles and many others were not guilty unlike the other Jews that refused to accept Christ.
ā[5]I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:ā Exodus 20:5
Thankfully Baptism takes away original sin and associates us with Christ instead of denial of Christ.
ā[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.ā
ā[5]I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:ā Exodus 20:5
Thankfully Baptism takes away original sin and associates us with Christ instead of denial of Christ.
ā[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.ā
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OurLadyofSorrows
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I read it wrong then, Apologies for poor reading skills.
However, even with this, The Church says the Jews did not kill Jesus.
We are to be obedient and submissive to the church. We have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Here is my question, yes that is in Sacred Scripture, but the Church says the Jews did not kill Christ. Why would the Church state this and infact, put it into documents?
However, even with this, The Church says the Jews did not kill Jesus.
We are to be obedient and submissive to the church. We have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Here is my question, yes that is in Sacred Scripture, but the Church says the Jews did not kill Christ. Why would the Church state this and infact, put it into documents?
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OurLadyofSorrows
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If the Church was going to be sticklers for all St Paul said we would still be required to wear veils, woman would not read or sing in Church, and so on.
Because the Church says no such thing. The Church says exactly what I said. We do not impute guilt to the Jews as a people. The Church still affirms the historical truth that members of Jewish leadership pushed for Jesusās death. Read Nostra aetate.
And your issue is not just with St. Paul. St Peter. St. John. They say the same thing.
And the Jewish civilians of Jerusalem themselves do not deny their role and responsibility in Jesusās death.
It is of no relevance that it was not Jews who drove the nails. Jesus himself imputed greater guilt to those who handed him over to Pilate. Those people he talked about were Jews.
So you cannot deny that there were Jews who did bear guilt over Jesusās death.
And your issue is not just with St. Paul. St Peter. St. John. They say the same thing.
And the Jewish civilians of Jerusalem themselves do not deny their role and responsibility in Jesusās death.
It is of no relevance that it was not Jews who drove the nails. Jesus himself imputed greater guilt to those who handed him over to Pilate. Those people he talked about were Jews.
So you cannot deny that there were Jews who did bear guilt over Jesusās death.
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Fauken
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Can you cite what youāre talking about?
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OurLadyofSorrows
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Actually it does, this was part of the Second Vatican Council, acknowoledging the Jews are not responsible for the Crucifixion of Christ.
Yes when I have some time I will find the specific documents.
Yes I can and I will, I stand with the Church on this.
Start with this , nothing here says the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm
I would also suggest reading Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict for a good summary on this.
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Dan_Defender
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True and another historical witness is the punishment that followed. The full destruction of Jerusalem and most of the Jewish nation in 70 AD.
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Justin_Mary
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Because the events did not unfold as they did to lay blame. & the way the question is asked & usually answered does nothing but serve human passions & not Godās will.
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OurLadyofSorrows
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There are a few really good examinations of the events of those days and the trial, based on culture and law of the times. Israel was under Roman rule. My go to is the ultimate decision of Pilate to release Barabas , and crucify Christ. The dynamics in that mob , on that question , at that time.
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EndTimes
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Their charge was Blasphemy
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tomarin
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Short answer: the Jewish people loved Jesus but his teachings threatened the Roman and Jewish authorities, who conspired to try and execute him.
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EndTimes
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Itās the Jewish Authorities who sentenced Jesus to Deathā¦
They handed Jesus over to Pilate - to do the deed
Finding no reason to Execute Jesus - Pilate Refused - but the Jews threatened Pilate
Ultimately Pilate gave in.
Those who handed Jesus over to Pilate are guilty of the greater Sinā¦
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Hume
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Based on my reading, Palestinia had historically been a particularly difficult province to govern and was prone toward rebellion. In order to help ease the administration and keep the province from being a money-sink (legions were expensive), Roman governance allowed a lot of the traditional structures to stay in place to help keep a rebellion-prone people somewhat placated.
This Jesus guy shows up, starts gathering crowds and disrupting the status quo. Obviously the Romans had no control of him, but neither did the traditional Jewish power structures that the Romans allowed to stay in place specifically to prevent this very problem.
It looked bad. This guy had a pretty strong support base in Galilee - the very same place the last few rebellions popped up. It was a place that was a little more tolerant of radical, new ideas in the province - especially as this Jesus guy wasnāt the only one with radical sects behind him at the time in that area.
But Jesus of Nazareth got too popular. And he was talking about new kingdoms and restoration and a bunch of other buzz-words the authorities didnāt like to hear. The Jewish control structures (which again existed to prevent this kind of thing) couldnāt readily contain him and were scared of being done away with for their failure. Moreover, there was fear that yet another uprising would occur, markets would be disrupted, more military money would be spent on a province that didnāt yield much in taxes anyway.
Ergo the real Roman authorities and the puppet Jewish authorities conspired to put an end to him and his sect before it led to much real trouble. He was accused of a bum crime, both sides claimed the other was responsible for the charges (common practice) and he was executed in a manner that was popular at the time due to itās particularly grisly nature.
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OurLadyofSorrows
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Who is āweā and what is their basis for that?
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OurLadyofSorrows
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Who is Roy Schoeman
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