Why fight SSM?

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Flavius_Aetius

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Why are Catholics suppose to fight Same Sex Marriage as a civil union? Upon asking this, I am not in favor of SSM, but you know what I just don’t care enough to try and make it illegal. It’s a losing battle that puts the Catholic Church in the line of fire of liberals and gays for no reason at all. History will depict the Church as an evil oppressive institution that would put them in the same light we put Southerners during the Civil Rights movement.

We don’t fight to make divorce illegal, in fact to do that would be stupid and dangerous to those placed in an enviroment with an abusive spouse.

So to be a good Catholic do you have to vote in ways that makes gay civil marriage illegal? Is just not voting on this issue enough to not be condemned to Hell over other peoples sins? I just hate the idea that more people are going to Hell over another persons sin, that just because they don’t care that gays play pretend marriage with government approval that is enough of a reason to send a Catholic to Hell for eternity.
 
Because by letting the institution be legal, we are endangering souls by basically almost telling people that homosexuality is not a sin and is equal to marriage.

There is a quote about how God would destroy everything if it would save one soul.

We must look out for the souls of others, as well as our own.
 
Why are Catholics suppose to fight Same Sex Marriage as a civil union
Where did you get that idea from? The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) funneled 280 million dollars of our collection basket contributions to organizations fighting for abortion and gay marriage.

youtube.com/watch?v=481bgi5Du0s&feature=player_embedded#t=0s

youtube.com/watch?v=EbK8viMApTc&feature=player_embedded

The USCCB is one of the biggest financial supporters of abortion and homosexuality.

God Bless
 
Why are Catholics suppose to fight Same Sex Marriage as a civil union? Upon asking this, I am not in favor of SSM, but you know what I just don’t care enough to try and make it illegal. It’s a losing battle that puts the Catholic Church in the line of fire of liberals and gays for no reason at all. History will depict the Church as an evil oppressive institution that would put them in the same light we put Southerners during the Civil Rights movement.

We don’t fight to make divorce illegal, in fact to do that would be stupid and dangerous to those placed in an enviroment with an abusive spouse.

So to be a good Catholic do you have to vote in ways that makes gay civil marriage illegal? Is just not voting on this issue enough to not be condemned to Hell over other peoples sins? I just hate the idea that more people are going to Hell over another persons sin, that just because they don’t care that gays play pretend marriage with government approval that is enough of a reason to send a Catholic to Hell for eternity.
Since Catholic Sacramental Marriage is completely separate from civil marriage, and the two don’t even recognize each other, I don’t know why Catholics are so opposed to it either. And like you, I wonder why the Church opposes some things, but ignores others. But then, I guess they have to choose their battles? I don’t know.

I can understand the Vatican issuing a statement according to its teachings. And I can understand that teaching trickling down to the pulpits. That I understand as it’s part the Church’s teachings like anything else. But what I don’t understand is the trickle effect down to the parishioners who make it their mission to try and make others (like non-Catholics or non-compliant Catholics) follow the rules set forth by the Vatican. No offense, but it kind of reminds me of vultures crowding around a dying body. Sinners are pointed out and there’s a mad rush (either in word or action) to stifle it and destroy it.

Some folks are acting like this is something new, when in fact, many nations have already allowed SSM and for quite some time.

I’d rather see an emphasis, from Catholics, on being a living example — rather than constantly bickering and fighting with their fellow citizens over something that is purely secular in nature.
 
It’s a slippery slope. At first the gays pushed to have their perversion re-classified as normal. Back in the 70’s most people probably found the idea of actual “marriage” to be ludicrous or repulsive.

But the gays pushed for this right and that, now to the point we are accepting “marriage” as OK, with all the tragedy that entails: children’s lives ruined and their minds warped, and pedophilia on the rise in homosexual unions where kids are adopted.

But now that the “gay culture” dominates our society and apparently our courts, the next fight is pedophilia. Did you read about the conference recently? Not NAMBLA or some fringe group. No, professors, doctors, social workers, and various respectable, educated people from top universities and institutes. They all got together to discuss HOW TO LEGALIZE SEX WITH CHILDREN. After all, it is a natural expression of love (just what the gays said).

Why fight anything wrong? What is next on this slippery slope? Polygamy? Any limit? 3 wives? 10 wives? Is that wrong and worth fighting?

How about bestiality? I mean, after all what I do with my own donkey in the privacy of my own bedroom is my civil right!

Necrophilia? Hey, I think it’s gross, but why should I impose on your feelings? If you like that, you have every right to do it. Maybe they can use those unclaimed corpses of criminals at the morgue?

As for Divorce, the Church and bishops did speak out against no-fault divorce (which is what made divorce easy and common in this country), they could see that was also a slippery slope leading to broken homes which destroy children’s self-esteem and peace of mind.
 
I know, your 4 explanation points are warranted. The USCCB has become a milder branch of the Democratic Party; it should be disbanded, it serves no good purpose. (Is this it, the moment I get banned from CAF?)

The bad news is it’s a big, bureaucracy that is self-serving, just like Congress, but unlike Congress it is a closed society accountable to no one (in reality).

The good news is that some of the worst bishops we’ve had have retired in recent years or are reaching the 75 mark soon. And, Pope Benedict has been particularly astute about appointing good men as bishops, and more are in the pipeline.

Can the USCCB be “cleaned up”? Maybe, it was a very positive sign they did not accept Kicanas but picked a true, orthodox Catholic for President.
 
It’s a slippery slope. At first the gays pushed to have their perversion re-classified as normal. Back in the 70’s most people probably found the idea of actual “marriage” to be ludicrous or repulsive.

But the gays pushed for this right and that, now to the point we are accepting “marriage” as OK, with all the tragedy that entails: children’s lives ruined and their minds warped, and pedophilia on the rise in homosexual unions where kids are adopted.

But now that the “gay culture” dominates our society and apparently our courts, the next fight is pedophilia. Did you read about the conference recently? Not NAMBLA or some fringe group. No, professors, doctors, social workers, and various respectable, educated people from top universities and institutes. They all got together to discuss HOW TO LEGALIZE SEX WITH CHILDREN. After all, it is a natural expression of love (just what the gays said). How about bestiality? I mean, after all what I do with my own donkey in the privacy of my own bedroom is my civil right!
SSM is between two consenting adults. Children and animals can’t consent.
Why fight anything wrong? What is next on this slippery slope? Polygamy? Any limit? 3 wives? 10 wives? Is that wrong and worth fighting?
I have no idea why that became illegal to begin with. Muslims and certain sects of LDS preach for polygamy to fulful God’s command to 'be fruitful; reproduce and multiply". As long as the parties are consenting adults, I not so sure I agree with preventing them from practicing their religion like everyone else does.
Necrophilia? Hey, I think it’s gross, but why should I impose on your feelings? If you like that, you have every right to do it. Maybe they can use those unclaimed corpses of criminals at the morgue?
Yeah, that’s gross.
As for Divorce, the Church and bishops did speak out against no-fault divorce (which is what made divorce easy and common in this country), they could see that was also a slippery slope leading to broken homes which destroy children’s self-esteem and peace of mind.
And exactly what good did it do? it seems that it only got worse.
 
Beccause its a whole lot harder to get Catholics to do anything about the economic inequality in the United States. (Take a look we are right next to Rwanda cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

In the end the anti-SSM will not be taken seriously by American Catholics (56% are pro-SSM frontiersman.com/articles/2011/05/27/faith/doc4ddf3b8897cc3178697962.txt

Just as the majority of Catholics use birth control. (98% of catholic women use BC banned by Church reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

The structure of the Catholic Church in regards to implementing policy was never meant to cater to this many literate people. THe internet only makes things worse. THe Church is in an akward position. Rather than pontificating about the decisions of two people exercising their free will, the Church aught to remember that Christ spoke of the poor many more times than he spoke of sexual practices.
 
Beccause its a whole lot harder to get Catholics to do anything about the economic inequality in the United States. (Take a look we are right next to Rwanda cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

In the end the anti-SSM will not be taken seriously by American Catholics (56% are pro-SSM frontiersman.com/articles/2011/05/27/faith/doc4ddf3b8897cc3178697962.txt

Just as the majority of Catholics use birth control. (98% of catholic women use BC banned by Church reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

The structure of the Catholic Church in regards to implementing policy was never meant to cater to this many literate people. THe internet only makes things worse. THe Church is in an akward position. Rather than pontificating about the decisions of two people exercising their free will, the Church aught to remember that Christ spoke of the poor many more times than he spoke of sexual practices.
“Among Americans who are resisting the change of attitude are evangelical Protestants. Only 23 percent of the members of evangelical churches are supportive of same-sex marriages”. So it looks like Heaven is going to be full of Evangelical Protestants, and hell is going to be overpacked with Catholics.

God Bless
 
What about the second part?

Is a Catholic going to Hell if they decide to just not care and let gays get married by the government along with Polygamists and incest supporters and anything that is two consenting people?
 
What about the second part?

Is a Catholic going to Hell if they decide to just not care and let gays get married by the government along with Polygamists and incest supporters and anything that is two consenting people?
It’s a disorder like schizophrenia. I’m presuming that you are already aware of all the Bible passages concerning homosexuality.

God Bless
 
Beccause its a whole lot harder to get Catholics to do anything about the economic inequality in the United States. (Take a look we are right next to Rwanda cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

In the end the anti-SSM will not be taken seriously by American Catholics (56% are pro-SSM frontiersman.com/articles/2011/05/27/faith/doc4ddf3b8897cc3178697962.txt

Just as the majority of Catholics use birth control. (98% of catholic women use BC banned by Church reuters.com/article/2011/04/13/us-contraceptives-religion-idUSTRE73C7W020110413

The structure of the Catholic Church in regards to implementing policy was never meant to cater to this many literate people. THe internet only makes things worse. THe Church is in an akward position. Rather than pontificating about the decisions of two people exercising their free will, the Church aught to remember that Christ spoke of the poor many more times than he spoke of sexual practices.
56% of Catholics is a long shot from saying Catholics approve of SSM. If the Catholic Church ran on polls we would be more liberal than most Protestant churches. If they want to poll Catholics they should only allow people to respond if they attend mass every week anyways. I really don’t think the opinion of someone who attends mass once a year matters do you?

Also people need to stop spreading this lie about Catholics using contraception. The poll does not say 98% of Catholics are using contraception as your post implied. It says 98% of Catholics HAVE USED contraception. The poll that needs to be done is to figure out how many Catholics are currently using contraception and are ok with it. Deciding to not use contraception is a decision that involves two people as well so I believe there are a decent number of people who are using contraception that are not ok with doing so.
 
What about the second part?

Is a Catholic going to Hell if they decide to just not care and let gays get married by the government along with Polygamists and incest supporters and anything that is two consenting people?
Go back and re-read the readings from this past Sunday.
 
“Surveys since 1968, when the church first condemned the birth-control pill, indicate that nine out of 10 Catholic women have used it and that 65 percent of Catholics and 40 percent of priests do not believe use of contraception is always a sin.”

This is from an article written 2006.
azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0109birthcontrol09.html

There is a big difference between 65% and 98%. It’s also not surprising that 65% of Catholics supposedly approve considering the amount of priests who are confused on the issue.
 
“Surveys since 1968, when the church first condemned the birth-control pill, indicate that nine out of 10 Catholic women have used it and that 65 percent of Catholics and 40 percent of priests do not believe use of contraception is always a sin.”

This is from an article written 2006.
azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0109birthcontrol09.html

There is a big difference between 65% and 98%. It’s also not surprising that 65% of Catholics supposedly approve considering the amount of priests who are confused on the issue.
The percentages are irrelevant, sin is sin, even when it becomes the “in” thing and popular. “Right is right, even if no one is right. Wrong is wrong, even if everyone is wrong (Archbishop Fulton Sheen).” The Bible has many passages that assure us that homosexuality is a sin. Homosexual union is a sin, even when it is legal.

As abortion is a sin, even when society calls murdering innocent babies a “right to choose”. Even when we have an American President who championed murdering late-term babies after birth who viably survived death, by fighting against the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act”. Even when nurses testified to him that abortion clinics were taking perfectly viable babies who survived the abortion procedure and immediately placing them in refrigerated cold boxes for death: “abortions next step”.

God Bless
 
I’m going to try and present the Church’s reasoning as best as possible (if I am completely off the mark, someone please correct me.), but I might find it difficult to keep secular and theological arguments separated, so bear with me.

The church isn’t necessarily fighting same sex marriage itself. It is fighting the legal redefinition of marriage. Previously, marriage (in the civil sense) was defined as being between a consenting man and women, in which case, procreation was possible (at least, in the vast majority of marriages, not as a condition of the marriage, but as a result). To be extremely simplistic, a man and woman agreed to marry because they wanted to live together (Culturally, this implied that they were “in love”. Theologically, this meant that they had received the Sacrament of Matrimony and their relationship was a reflection of God’s love), and they agreed that they would have responsibilities towards any child that they procreated. So, we can see that even in the previous legal definition of marriage, the two aspects of a marriage relationship that the Church requires are met: procreative, and unitive. The couple express their love before either God or a court, and agree to accept children given to them by God, or to have mutual responsibilities towards any children that result from the marriage (whether intentional or by accident).

Now, same sex marriage is attempting to redefine marriage. Proponents want marriage to be between any two consenting adults, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Now, obviously, a homosexual couple cannot procreate. This is something that gay marriage proponents don’t stress or say very often. They simply cannot produce children (adoption is a different story). Now, what does that do to the definition of marriage? No longer does a couple have to physically be able to procreate. So, now there is only one aspect of marriage that is preserved: unitive. Obviously, to the Church, this is unacceptable (the Church also teaches that homosexual union is not unitive either). Culturally, this says that all that is needed for a couple to be married is that “they love each other” (Side note: I am fully aware that legally, all that a marriage liscence does is grant certain legal benefits (hospital visitation rights, right to file taxes jointly for a smaller tax burden). However, I am referring more to the cultural notion of marriage. In most cases, people don’t get married to get these benefits. They get married because they “love each other”). Now, proponents of same sex marriage will disregard the following argument as illogical and irrational: If all that is needed for “marriage” is a mutual agreement of affection and cohabitation, where do you stop? If two men can marry, why not two eight-year old children, or one man to fifteen women, or a woman to her pet dog? Can’t children both agree that they “love each other” and want to get married (as absurd as this sounds, a previous poster mentioned that there are a growing number of learned individuals who are making similar arguments, just with pedophiles and their victims (that is, attempting to prove, psychologically, that they are able to “love” each other))? If a man loves 15 women, why not get married to all of them? If a woman loves her pet dog, and she believes the dog loves her, why can’t they get married (many philosophers and psychologists can also prove this)? It is, indeed, a slippery slope, because there is nothing objective (such as the necessity or possibility of procreation) to stop a runaway freight train of subjective feeling or reasoning.

And therein lies the fundamental fallacy and danger: When you reject objectivity, everything is fair game, because then everything becomes “Well, I feel this way, and alot of other people feel this way, therefore, it must be right”.
 
Because it goes to the very reason the government is involved in marriage in the first place!

Once upon a time, marriage was universally understood to be a permanent union of man and woman in a bond of self-giving love that is ordered towards the creation and nurturing of new life. This bond tends to produce happy, well adjusted, law abiding, hard working new citizens that the state tends to need to spend little money on for things like welfare, prison, DCFS, etc compared to kids raised in less stable arrangements. So marriage was endorsed, subsidized and favored in government tax and legal policy.

But along the way, marriage got redefined to make kids irrelevant (about the time we got addicted to contraceptives). It’s now just about two adults who have gushy feelings for each other. Why on earth should the government be involved in THAT?

The church is opposed to ‘gay marriage’ because the church is opposed to all self destructive social trends. Same reason she opposed contraception, really. Marriage isn’t fundamentally about you and your feelings. It’s about deciding to love beyond yourself in the the way that God designed humans to most fully reflect His image and likeness: a relationship in which love is ordered towards bringing life where there was none before. Two gay guys simply aren’t qualified for that, regardless of how they feel about each other.
 
The percentages are irrelevant, sin is sin, even when it becomes the “in” thing and popular. “Right is right, even if no one is right. Wrong is wrong, even if everyone is wrong (Archbishop Fulton Sheen).” The Bible has many passages that assure us that homosexuality is a sin. Homosexual union is a sin, even when it is legal.

As abortion is a sin, even when society calls murdering innocent babies a “right to choose”. Even when we have an American President who championed murdering late-term babies after birth who viably survived death, by fighting against the “Born Alive Infant Protection Act”. Even when nurses testified to him that abortion clinics were taking perfectly viable babies who survived the abortion procedure and immediately placing them in refrigerated cold boxes for death: “abortions next step”.

God Bless
Well said. Because something is “popular” it doesn’t make it right.

And your comparison to abortion is valid. They can dress it up and call it whatever they like, it is still murdering defenceless babies.

BTW, can you tell me if Obama repealed the “Born Alive Infant protection Act”? A group of us were discussing this the other day and we weren’t sure. Sadly, a little over a year ago in Victoria, Australia they approved late term abortion legislation. Not that long ago I read that in the first 12 months of this legislation there were 45 babies that survived the abortion attempt, ie they were born alive, but none survived 24 hours. What they do with these babies is terrible, and nothing should of murder.

Why fight SSM? Because to not fight SSM is to approve of it, and that is a mortal sin.
 
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