Why Fish

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OldYoungGuy

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I went to dinner with a couple of co-workers tonight, and ordered an eggs & peppers sandwich w/ provolone because they wanted to go to a local sandwich shop. We were originally going to go to a seafood joint.

A discussion came up as to why I don’t eat meat on Fridays, and I think I was able to explain it alright. But when they asked why we can eat fish and not other animals, I was stumped. Its something I just haven’t looked into. I’ve been abstaining from meat on Fridays for a while but never really looked that deeply into it. I know there is a book out there, but I do to much reading as it is, I will be happy with a quick summary if anybody is up for that. Thanks.
 
It’s a discipline or practice, not a doctrine of faith for meat to be abstained from on Fridays. In the original language of the practice, Latin, the specific word used refers to the flesh of mammals and foul, not that of seafood such as fish, crab, lobster, etc. I suppose if you wanted to take it all the way and abstain from any flesh what-so-ever, you could, but there’s no reason to go overboard.
 
In our RCIA classes, we were told that fish was the “common”, cheap food for most people back in the old days, kind of like peanut butter and jelly or Ramen noodles are the “common” foods that we here in the U.S. eat when we don’t have a lot of money.

Meat was the “treat” food, costing more than fish. Therefore it was a good discipline for Christians to give up their “treat” on Fridays and eat the “common” food.

I hope this information is correct, and if it is not, I would appreciate it if someone would correct me.

Personally, I think that in the U.S., Catholics really aren’t practicing a “discipline” to eat fish instead of meat, because in this time in history in this country, fish is the “treat” food and generally costs a lot more than a burger or a few pieces of bacon.

It seems to me that in the U.S., since fish is the “expensive” food and meat is “cheap,” it would be more appropriate for Catholics to have fishless Fridays and eat meat.

During Lent, it’s a joke! The seafood restaurants and the fast-food places offer delectable “Lenten specials” that are expensive and decadently delicious! And lots of the local lodges and clubs offer “Friday Night Fish Fries” where you can eat all the fried walleye or perch that you can eat! Even McDonalds offers two Filet o Fish sandwiches for a special cheap price, and those sandwiches are SOOOOO yummy (and fattening)–hardly a "sacrifice!

Lent (or Friday) doesn’t seem to be a time of sacrifice and fasting anymore!

So perhaps rather than “meatless” Fridays where fish is OK, it would be better here in the U.S. for the Church to require Catholics to eat other cheaper sources of protein; e.g., beans, eggs, cheese, or tofu.

However, if the Church made this declaration, I’m sure that the restaurants would create expensive and delicious bean, eggs, cheese, and tofu dishes for Catholics (probably combining all of those options in one big giant entree–the Beany Cheesy Tofuy Omelette! And the lodges would offer “All You Can Eat Bean Night!” or “Meatless Chile Fest!” or “Egg Eggstravaganza!”

Or if the Church asks us to abstain from protein and eat only vegetables and water (a “Daniel Diet”), the restaurants and lodges would create “Vege Feasts” and feature all kinds of deep-fat-fried veges.

Heck, even if the Church said, “Water only!” the restaurants would probably offer “Artesian spring water flown in from the Alps!”

So it seems to me that we who are Catholic in the U.S. have to stop thinking in terms of merely avoiding meat and instead, think in terms of avoiding excess of all kinds on Fridays. In the U.S., avoiding excess is getting harder and harder to do, especially when it comes to food. Even our “poor” foods are yummy and fattening!
 
OldYoungGuy said:
I went to dinner with a couple of co-workers tonight, and ordered an eggs & peppers sandwich w/ provolone because they wanted to go to a local sandwich shop. We were originally going to go to a seafood joint.

A discussion came up as to why I don’t eat meat on Fridays, and I think I was able to explain it alright. But when they asked why we can eat fish and not other animals, I was stumped. Its something I just haven’t looked into. I’ve been abstaining from meat on Fridays for a while but never really looked that deeply into it. I know there is a book out there, but I do to much reading as it is, I will be happy with a quick summary if anybody is up for that. Thanks.
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I own a book on that very subject—and on many more fascinating things Catholics ‘invented,’ like the universtity system.

Alas, it’s in the other room. Wait, hold on…

Here it is. Yay innerwebs!

It’s a great book. Open it at random and learn about everything from candles to croissants!
 
Cat,

Have you attended a Fish Fry during Lent? More than one? I think you will find that many are quite austere. My Knights of Columbus council sponsors a Fish Fry for the Fridays of Lent, and it is not all-you-can-eat, it is cafeteria style. We serve pollack and cod, choice of baked or fried, with French fries or baked potato, and cole slaw and the usual condiments. After this simple meal we retire to the sanctuary for the Stations of the Cross devotion. We serve the food on styro plates with paper placemats and plastic forks, this is really the simplest kind of meal you can find. It is not unlike a homeless shelter feeding the hungry, except that we charge $8 for adults. We feed the hungry of our parish and I consider it a very great honor to participate and volunteer for this. Last year, I was co-chairman and I participated a bit more, helping to purchase the food (at a local food-service warehouse, nothing fancy.)

The only reason that McDonald’s offers fish at any time of the week is because a Catholic got the idea to compete with other burger joints and other fish fry locations by offering a meal fit for Lent on a Friday that wouldn’t violate canon law.

I don’t appreciate you jumping in to denigrate a time-honored tradition like this. Canon Law enshrines our rights and responsibilities to the Roman Catholic Church, and has delegated many responsibilities to the USCCB. USCCB may determine for themselves whether fish is a “treat” or delicacy, just as the Church in her wisdom may determine other things for us to follow. Please be more respectful of Church discipline, or at least the Knights of Columbus, who care about your families, children and communities so much that they sponsor service projects like this.
 
Elizium23 said:
Cat,

Have you attended a Fish Fry during Lent? More than one? I think you will find that many are quite austere. My Knights of Columbus council sponsors a Fish Fry for the Fridays of Lent, and it is not all-you-can-eat, it is cafeteria style. We serve pollack and cod, choice of baked or fried, with French fries or baked potato, and cole slaw and the usual condiments. After this simple meal we retire to the sanctuary for the Stations of the Cross devotion. We serve the food on styro plates with paper placemats and plastic forks, this is really the simplest kind of meal you can find. It is not unlike a homeless shelter feeding the hungry, except that we charge $8 for adults. We feed the hungry of our parish and I consider it a very great honor to participate and volunteer for this. Last year, I was co-chairman and I participated a bit more, helping to purchase the food (at a local food-service warehouse, nothing fancy.)

The only reason that McDonald’s offers fish at any time of the week is because a Catholic got the idea to compete with other burger joints and other fish fry locations by offering a meal fit for Lent on a Friday that wouldn’t violate canon law.

I don’t appreciate you jumping in to denigrate a time-honored tradition like this. Canon Law enshrines our rights and responsibilities to the Roman Catholic Church, and has delegated many responsibilities to the USCCB. USCCB may determine for themselves whether fish is a “treat” or delicacy, just as the Church in her wisdom may determine other things for us to follow. Please be more respectful of Church discipline, or at least the Knights of Columbus, who care about your families, children and communities so much that they sponsor service projects like this.
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I meant for my post to be light-hearted and thought-provoking about our tendency to overindulge in the U.S., not a denigration of Holy Mother Church or of her disciplines. I respect and abide by Holy Mother Church’s teachings in all things to the best of my ability.

I apologize that my writing failed to convey my intent to be light-hearted.

The Lenten Friday Fish Fries in our area are not austere like yours are.

I didn’t even mention the Knights of Columbus! I mentioned “lodges and clubs,” but did not mention any by name.

I encourage you to lighten up. As for my “jumping in,” well, this is an open discussion forum, and we’re supposed to “jump in” and contribute our comments.
 
Elizium23 said:
Cat,

Have you attended a Fish Fry during Lent? More than one? I think you will find that many are quite austere. My Knights of Columbus council sponsors a Fish Fry for the Fridays of Lent, and it is not all-you-can-eat, it is cafeteria style. We serve pollack and cod, choice of baked or fried, with French fries or baked potato, and cole slaw and the usual condiments. After this simple meal we retire to the sanctuary for the Stations of the Cross devotion. We serve the food on styro plates with paper placemats and plastic forks, this is really the simplest kind of meal you can find. It is not unlike a homeless shelter feeding the hungry, except that we charge $8 for adults. We feed the hungry of our parish and I consider it a very great honor to participate and volunteer for this. Last year, I was co-chairman and I participated a bit more, helping to purchase the food (at a local food-service warehouse, nothing fancy.)

The only reason that McDonald’s offers fish at any time of the week is because a Catholic got the idea to compete with other burger joints and other fish fry locations by offering a meal fit for Lent on a Friday that wouldn’t violate canon law.

I don’t appreciate you jumping in to denigrate a time-honored tradition like this. Canon Law enshrines our rights and responsibilities to the Roman Catholic Church, and has delegated many responsibilities to the USCCB. USCCB may determine for themselves whether fish is a “treat” or delicacy, just as the Church in her wisdom may determine other things for us to follow. Please be more respectful of Church discipline, or at least the Knights of Columbus, who care about your families, children and communities so much that they sponsor service projects like this.
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I agree with Cat to a certain degree.

Fish and chips is one of the more popular take-out meals out there.

I do believe meatless should be fleshless, but that’s me. If Holy Mother Church says fish is fine, then fish is fine.

😃

That’s the most obedient, grinning icon, I could find.
 
TrueLight said:
I agree with Cat to a certain degree.

Fish and chips is one of the more popular take-out meals out there.

I do believe meatless should be fleshless, but that’s me. If Holy Mother Church says fish is fine, then fish is fine.

😃

That’s the most obedient, grinning icon, I could find.
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Personally I think it’s kind of weird if people make a special effort to eat fish on Fridays rather than just skip meat. In my family, Fridays are probably 60% vegetarian and 40% fish. When we go shopping at a place with a good fish counter we pick something up and toss it in the freezer. If it’s there, we eat it. Otherwise, we have neither fish nor flesh.
 
In the Byzantine Rite there are different levels of fast. During periods of Great Fasts, even Fish is not allowed (such as during Lent). One may still have animals that do not have backbones, such as shrimp and insects. Also anything that comes from these animals with backbones are to be avoided as well, such as dairy and eggs.
 
Will_S said:
Personally I think it’s kind of weird if people make a special effort to eat fish on Fridays rather than just skip meat. In my family, Fridays are probably 60% vegetarian and 40% fish. When we go shopping at a place with a good fish counter we pick something up and toss it in the freezer. If it’s there, we eat it. Otherwise, we have neither fish nor flesh.
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👍
 
My understanding is that since Christ “gave up his flesh” (died) for us on a Friday, that we are also to “give up flesh” (meat) on Fridays.

That doesn’t mean we have to eat fish, just that we shouldn’t eat red-blooded flesh–what ever that definition is. As Catholic missionaries came into new places, the rule was adapted based on what the local people ate and how the missionaries catagorized the foods. Some animals that we now know are red-blooded, were then considered ‘fish’ because they lived in water. For example, the muskrat. Of course, if muskrat is a common food, I would consider that quite a penance! 😛

As JReducation said in another thread, we are always allowed to go further with our personal practices (within reason). So any one who chooses, can abstain from eggs, milk, fish, whatever on fridays also. We just can’t tell others they need to follow our practices or do more than the church requires.
 
OldYoungGuy said:
I went to dinner with a couple of co-workers tonight, and ordered an eggs & peppers sandwich w/ provolone because they wanted to go to a local sandwich shop. We were originally going to go to a seafood joint.

A discussion came up as to why I don’t eat meat on Fridays, and I think I was able to explain it alright. But when they asked why we can eat fish and not other animals, I was stumped. Its something I just haven’t looked into. I’ve been abstaining from meat on Fridays for a while but never really looked that deeply into it. I know there is a book out there, but I do to much reading as it is, I will be happy with a quick summary if anybody is up for that. Thanks.
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Father John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary:

MEAT. The flesh of animals and birds eaten by human beings, as understood in Church law. Its prohibition on days of abstinence and fast has a spiritual value, going back to the Old Testament and practiced since apostolic times. “The law of abstinence forbids the use of meat, but not of eggs, the products of milk or condiments made of animal fat” (Pope Paul VI, Paenitemini, Norm III, 1).
 
Fasting rules really depend on the time and place where they develop.

I think it is good to remember that in the past, and even today, there are many people who make a perpetual fast of the strictest kind because of poverty.

It’s generally good to follow the rules of our tradition in these things, because it is an obedience, but it is also important to consider the intent of the fast. Having talked to a person who made a Lenten fast of lobster, scampi, scallops, and so on, I think it is entirely possible to obey they letter of the law without the spirit.
 
Bluegoat said:
Fasting rules really depend on the time and place where they develop.

I think it is good to remember that in the past, and even today, there are many people who make a perpetual fast of the strictest kind because of poverty.

It’s generally good to follow the rules of our tradition in these things, because it is an obedience, but it is also important to consider the intent of the fast. Having talked to a person who made a Lenten fast of lobster, scampi, scallops, and so on, I think it is entirely possible to obey they letter of the law without the spirit.
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Exactly. Good post.
 
In the early days of the Church, the fish was the symbol of Christianity. Later the cross was to become the symbol.
 
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Abstinence_%28Food%29

“—Throughout the Latin Church the law of abstinence prohibits all responsible subjects from indulging in meat diet on duly appointed days. Meat diet comprises the flesh, blood, or marrow of such animals and birds as constitute flesh meat according to the appreciation of intelligent and law-abiding Christians. For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, molluscs, crabs, turtles, frogs, and suchlike cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence. Amphibians are relegated to the category whereunto they bear most striking resemblance. This classification can scarcely preclude all doubt regarding viands prohibited by the law of abstinence. Local usage, together with the practice of intelligent and conscientious Christians, generally holds a key for the solution of mooted points in such matters, otherwise the decision rests with ecclesiastical authority. Furthermore, on many fasting days during the year the law of abstinence bars the use of such viands as bear some identity of origin with flesh meat. For this reason eggs, milk, butter, cheese, and lard are interdicted (St. Thomas, Summa, II-II, Q. cvii, art. ult., ad 3). The Church enjoins the ways and means whereby her subjects must satisfy the obligation of doing penance inculcated by natural law. Many of the Fathers allude to the exercise of ecclesiastical authority in reference to the obligation of abstinence.”
 
Thanks for the responses. I did know the reason for abstaining from meat, but was caught off guard being asked why the exception of fish. The last post is pretty helpful, thanks. By the way, I don’t eat meat on Fridays, I don’t however eat fish every Friday, and its not to bad, but it definitely is a penance. I’m the kind of man that could eat a steak or cheeseburger 3 meals a day 7 days a week. Luckily the Church gives my ticker a break one day a week.
 
ConstantineTG said:
In the Byzantine Rite there are different levels of fast. During periods of Great Fasts, even Fish is not allowed (such as during Lent). One may still have animals that do not have backbones, such as shrimp and insects. Also anything that comes from these animals with backbones are to be avoided as well, such as dairy and eggs.
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This depends on what Eparchy you belong to and what fasting rules the Eparch has put into place.😃
 
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