Why follow a Church not founded by Christ and in Christ?

[2ndGen]

Part Duex

I know that Jesus spoke Scripture, not read it. In fact, I remember reading that Jews of the time memorized large amounts of Scripture. This fact makes me wonder when the professor of my theology class at a Catholic university talked about how Matthew and Luke came from the “Quelle” source and Mark. Considering the fact that the Jews were obviously capable of memorizing large portions of things, why could they not have done the same with Jesus’ words, writing them down later? Why must there be an imaginary/theoretical source? This is rather off topic, though.

Well, the “Q” source is an intellectual theory.

I tried theology classes once. After a couple of my questions, the Priest teaching it told me that (after class) I had a Charism for reading Scripture and that I should seek spiritual guidance from a religious (friar, monk, etc…). He told me that I had a gift to see things that most people can’t. He told me I was being graced with that gift to share it.

That was 10 years ago and I’ve been very careful about trying to teach anybody. I just share my points of view and allow God to inspire who I tell what I tell to do what He wants.

But it wasn’t just the Priest who told me this. Friars, Monsignors, Monks, Protestant Pastors & Ministers…I’m told something to that effect by persons who are devoted to God in how they live their lives, but like some characters in The Bible, I am reluctant to talk.

LOL!

God hasn’t ordered to wear a camel hair coat and eat locusts just yet!

LOL!

Thank you for your mini-novels, I’m learning from them!

Believe me, a good chunk of what I shared with you I didn’t even know that I was going to say. It just flows through my fingertips without any (name removed by moderator)ut on my part. Sometimes, God just uses me as a pen. I’ve come to know things that I never studied, but then confirmed them to be true in Scripture.

It’s scary, but I stopped fighting it.

And I promise…I will curb my text from now on!

LOL!

 

[2ndGen]

HannahLisa…

I hope this helps;

catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp

 

[HannahLisa]

Why do you call the KJV a secular Bible? Also, please keep in mind that I am not Catholic, therefore I am not likely to restrict myself to Bibles with imprimatur I will try and look into the Good News Bible, though. Do you know if the Ignatius Bible has an imprimatur (the Catholic edition, that is)? My copy is currently not with me, so I can’t check it. This is the Bible I used for my Catholic theology course. Also, why would the Bible automatically be an incorrect translation simply because it does not have the deuterocanonical books in it, or because they are included under the heading of the Apocrypha and not admitted to be of the same quality as the others? Why would that make the translation automatically flawed?

I believe that no Bible today still contains “faith alone” instead of “faith”, though I’m not sure on that. I do know that James states that we are NOT saved by “faith alone,” so Protestants who believe that we are saved solely by faith are going against the Bible.

Don’t ever place your trust in an inanimate object. The Bible is written in your heart. The book is just a tool to reveal the truth in your heart. If it’s not true and you read it in The Bible and believe it anyway, then you (not you personally) are going against what is written in your heart.

From that disobedience to The Word written in our hearts comes what? Wrath? Protest? Anger? Division? Slander? None of that is from God so how can any church born of all that be of God?

Interesting. So you are saying that the Bible is only a tool for natural revelation to come forth? I don’t think the fact that we are to love our enemies is exactly written on our hearts though…Perhaps we know it to be true but don’t like it; I’m not sure. I grew up around Christianity and don’t remember a time when I didn’t know that we were supposed to love our enemies.

Just clarifying: If you believe something is okay, but the Bible says it’s not, then you are lying to yourself. Is that what you meant?

I think God can work for good in churches born out of negative things. I’ve seen Him do it. Any church concentrated on such things, however, has major issues, to put it nicely.

That’s very interesting that you mention that charism. I’m currently going to a charismatic/pentecostal church, and they call “spiritual gifts” what I’ve discovered Catholics call “charisms”. They also put much more emphasis on them, but that’s neither here nor there. It is amazing that God speaks through you!

And actually, I read that article about Bible translations earlier today…I’m probably going to read many of Catholic Answers’ articles at some point in the next week or so. I’ve read some before, but that was a couple months ago.

 

[VWcrazy]

I don’t have a book, chapter, and verse saying this. Do I need to?

Yes. If you are going to say the Bible is the ultimate authority, you need to show us exactly where it states that.

 

[jblake]

Mannyfit75;:

I do like to ask why does your Bible neglect the 7 Deutrocanonical Books?

I probably should not take the bait, but why does your Bible:

• neglect three deuterocanonical books?(PrMan, 1Esdras, 2 Esdras: Anglican )
• neglect 5 deuterocanonical books? (3 Mac, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, PrMan, Ps151, 4 Mac: Orthodox)

xan

jonathon

 

[Harpazo]

I probably should not take the bait, but why does your Bible:

• neglect three deuterocanonical books?(PrMan, 1Esdras, 2 Esdras: Anglican )
• neglect 5 deuterocanonical books? (3 Mac, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, PrMan, Ps151, 4 Mac: Orthodox)

xan

jonathon

1 and 2 Esdras are in the Catholic Bible, but they are called Esra and Nehemiah in Protestant versions. Sadly, some Catholic Bibles have adopted those names.

Not sure what PrMan stands for. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but some Eastern Catholics do have those books in their canon that the Orthodox have.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[2ndGen]

Why do you call the KJV a secular Bible?

 

[2ndGen]

Part Deux

Just clarifying: If you believe something is okay, but the Bible says it’s not, then you are lying to yourself. Is that what you meant?

I believe everything The Bible teaches. Why? Because I once doubted everything and have been proven wrong time and time again. After a while, one gets tired of being wrong.

You should read The Book of Sirach from the Deuterocanonical Books. Jesus used it extensivey. It will really strengthen you as a Christian.

I think God can work for good in churches born out of negative things. I’ve seen Him do it. Any church concentrated on such things, however, has major issues, to put it nicely.

Well, according to Christ, no rotten tree can bear good fruit. So in order for it to have bore a good fruit, it must’ve been good from the beginning and couldn’t have been a negative church.

Now, the congregation? That’s another story. Any member can produce good fruit.

That’s very interesting that you mention that charism. I’m currently going to a charismatic/pentecostal church, and they call “spiritual gifts” what I’ve discovered Catholics call “charisms”. They also put much more emphasis on them, but that’s neither here nor there. It is amazing that God speaks through you!

Did you know that the biggest Pentecostal group is The Catholic Charismatic movement?

(Pentecostal in the sense of the whole gifts issues, not in the sense of their being from the Pentecostal church that was created in the 1900’s…by the way, 1/2 my family are diehard Pentecostals, 5 of them have their own mini-Mega churches).

And actually, I read that article about Bible translations earlier today…I’m probably going to read many of Catholic Answers’ articles at some point in the next week or so. I’ve read some before, but that was a couple months ago.

Do you have a Catechism of The Catholic Church? It’s about as old as Protestantism itself. I’ve heard that some Protestant groups actually use it in teaching. If you don’t have one, that would be your first step in learning the religiousity of Catholicism.

Pax

 

[HannahLisa]

Yes. If you are going to say the Bible is the ultimate authority, you need to show us exactly where it states that.

First of all, I can’t do that. But from what I’ve seen, the Bible has been treated as the ultimate authority or one of the ultimate authorities for centuries. Again, if Tradition and Scripture were ever to conflict (which I don’t think they would), I think Scripture would win.

What would it prove if I could pull out a verse saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority? A book tells you it is the ultimate authority and you are automatically supposed to believe it?

 

[Harpazo]

First of all, I can’t do that. But from what I’ve seen, the Bible has been treated as the ultimate authority or one of the ultimate authorities for centuries. Again, if Tradition and Scripture were ever to conflict (which I don’t think they would), I think Scripture would win.

What would it prove if I could pull out a verse saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority? A book tells you it is the ultimate authority and you are automatically supposed to believe it?

^boldened for emphasis

Isn’t that what you’re trying to prove in the first place?

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[2ndGen]

What would it prove if I could pull out a verse saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority?

A book tells you it is the ultimate authority and you are automatically supposed to believe it?

LOL!

“That’s” what I’ve been preaching alllll night!

LOL!

 

[2ndGen]

^boldened for emphasis

Isn’t that what you’re trying to prove in the first place?

Pace e Bene
Andrew

Let me tell you, Hannah has said some things here that have blown away people twice her age…she is spiritually mature.

 

[HannahLisa]

2ndGen,

Even if the Bible was “authorized” by a man, how does that make it secular? He didn’t create it, he just authorized some scholars to do another translation. I guess if you had secular translators you could argue that, though I don’t see why that makes a difference either unless they’re altering things when they translate.

I do read the Apocrypha, just not in the Bible I read every day. But even if I read a Bible containing the deuterocanonical books every day, I wouldn’t read them every day, so I don’t see what difference it is.

Considering the Bible we have contains 66 books that WERE approved by a Church which you believe is guided by the Holy Spirit, I think they must be valid. Do you have anything which shows which words were added and which verses deleted? I’d never heard of that, aside from the Apocrypha and now Martin Luther adding the word “alone”. Protestants have many Bible translations, and I’m not sure why, but I don’t think it is because of the denominations. Bible translations do not match up to denominations; people pick their own translations. I do think the JW Bible was changed to conform to their faith in some way, or at the very least it is an exceptionally bad translation.

Anyone can print whatever they want in the Bible when it comes to study aids, etc. When it comes to things like The Message and other paraphrases, they must be taken with a grain of salt.

Funny how even Protestants, who deny Tradition, have their own traditions…though what is the difference between Tradition and doctrine?

Free will to sin is…a very interesting blessing, I suppose.

I daresay Protestants would say they believe everything the Bible teaches. It’s the different interpretations which cause the problem. I will try and read Sirach when I go back to college (that’s where my Bible containing the Apocrypha is right now).

I did not know that the biggest Pentecostal movement was the Catholic Charismatic movement. I have wondered about it, but haven’t had a chance to learn much about it. To my Catholic friends at college, a simple praise and worship band seems pretty charismatic!

I borrowed a friend’s Catholic catechism and started reading it, but got busy with school and stopped. I got somewhere between a quarter and halfway through. (The Catechism is only 500 years old? Really? )

 

[VWcrazy]

What would it prove if I could pull out a verse saying that the Bible is the ultimate authority? A book tells you it is the ultimate authority and you are automatically supposed to believe it?

You have stated that you believe the Bible is the ultimate authority; however, you have not shown where Scripture teaches this. If Scripture doesn’t say this, where are you getting this idea?

 

[HannahLisa]

You have stated that you believe the Bible is the ultimate authority; however, you have not shown where Scripture teaches this. If Scripture doesn’t say this, where are you getting this idea?

Centuries of Christianity, in which the Bible was one of the ultimate authorities or the ultimate authority. Does the fact that I am a Protestant somehow invalidate this? Or is it the fact that the Church “created” the Bible? I think even the Church bows to Scripture, or at the very least I have yet to see a teaching which is in direct opposition to Scripture.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen,

Even if the Bible was “authorized” by a man, how does that make it secular? He didn’t create it, he just authorized some scholars to do another translation. I guess if you had secular translators you could argue that, though I don’t see why that makes a difference either unless they’re altering things when they translate.

 

[2ndGen]

Do you have anything which shows which words were added and which verses deleted? I’d never heard of that, aside from the Apocrypha and now Martin Luther adding the word “alone”.

A Protestant’s perspective:

tentmaker.org/Biblematters/KJV.htm

wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl020003.htm

comereason.org/theo_issues/theo025.asp

bible-researcher.com/canon10.html

bvbcministries.org/ChangesinKJV.htm

Protestants have many Bible translations, and I’m not sure why, but I don’t think it is because of the denominations. Bible translations do not match up to denominations; people pick their own translations. I do think the JW Bible was changed to conform to their faith in some way, or at the very least it is an exceptionally bad translation.

Think about it…the Protestant bibles did away with books that coincidentally were rich in Catholic Doctrine.

Anyone can print whatever they want in the Bible when it comes to study aids, etc. When it comes to things like The Message and other paraphrases, they must be taken with a grain of salt.

Thank God for defenders of The Faith. Do you know what Pope Benedict was called before he was called Pope? God’s Rotweiller because he was the go to guy for doctrine for Pope John Paul II.

Funny how even Protestants, who deny Tradition, have their own traditions…though what is the difference between Tradition and doctrine?

I daresay Protestants would say they believe everything the Bible teaches. It’s the different interpretations which cause the problem. I will try and read Sirach when I go back to college (that’s where my Bible containing the Apocrypha is right now).

They could proclaim they believe in everything “their” bibles teach, but their bibles are 7 books light and some words heavy.

I borrowed a friend’s Catholic catechism and started reading it, but got busy with school and stopped. I got somewhere between a quarter and halfway through. (The Catechism is only 500 years old? Really?

I get like that with The Bible. I always get lost at the begatings in Genesis.

 

[2ndGen]

Centuries of Christianity, in which the Bible was one of the ultimate authorities or the ultimate authority. Does the fact that I am a Protestant somehow invalidate this? Or is it the fact that the Church “created” the Bible? I think even the Church bows to Scripture, or at the very least I have yet to see a teaching which is in direct opposition to Scripture.

Centuries versus Millenia.

Why pick less guidance when you can have more?

What came first…The Catholic Church or The Holy Bible?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I place my faith in Jesus Christ, then in the Bible. I am not Catholic, therefore I do not place my faith in the Catholic Church, or any other church.

The important thing to me is what the denominations DO agree on, as opposed to what they do not. Regardless of their interpretations on the Bible, they can all agree that it is inspired. The difference in interpretations shows that there are flaws in some denominations, not in the Bible itself.

The Gospels and Acts are the only places that I know of where Jesus’ actual words are quoted. There is no oral tradition that I know of passing down Jesus’ words apart from the Gospels.

HannahLisa,

It is great to read that you are committed to Christ That is the most important thing. The one thing we must all be weary of that left on our own we can read things into the Scripture that is not there. That is why we also have to rely on the teachings and Traditions of of the Church.

My family for lack of a better term is multi-denominational and i have been to many different churches and over the years. There is something about not only going to Mass but just walking into a Catholic Church that is not there in a Protestant church or service.
I would never presume to tell someone that they can not find or experience GOD outside of the Catholic faith, But it has been my experience that to find the fullness of Christ teaching one would have to look to the only church that can trace its beginnings and teaching Christ and his Apostles. Only the Catholic and Orthodox churches can do that. Have the leaders of the church made mistakes over the years? Yes they were human, but because of the very nature of the Church it has been able to correct those mistakes. The Protestant church do not have this safe guard and as human error come in to play they divide. thus we have all the different denominations ans sub-denominations, but still only one Catholic Church.

May The Holy Spirit Lead you as you make your discernment on were to make your church home. One thing that you seem to behave some problem with is that we Catholic place Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition on the same level as they both come to us from the same source we view them with equal authority. The Protestant church have eliminated half of what we were given to teach us Gods will for us.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[HannahLisa]

2ndGen, thanks for the links. Incidentally, I am not a KJV-only person. One of those links defends the KJV, one says that only the original Scriptures can be considered inspired, which is an interesting viewpoint.

As far as I know, it was Martin Luther who wanted to do away with the deuterocanonical books, and they were still included in Bibles after that, just in a separate section. Nor do I think all Bibles necessarily have words added…It would be interesting to do a comparison of a Bible with imprimatur and one without and see how many differences there are. Part of the problem is going to be translation – not only translation from another language, but translation from roughly two millenia or more ago!

I wasn’t aware that Satanists had Bibles…

Leviticus is where I always get bogged down when I try to read straight through. I think I’ve read Genesis about five times. (I skip over the “begats” – apparently God used those passages to convert some tribal societies, though!)

So do you need divine inspiration to translate the Bible?

Scott, thank you for your post. I grew up without benefit of Tradition. I do not think it’s necessarily invalid, just that I am not familiar with it enough to discern anything about it beyond the fact that it has a lot to do with the Church. I’m still trying to understand what exactly it is and what qualifies as Tradition.