Why follow a Church not founded by Christ and in Christ?

[c659smith]

Hannah but Jesus gave us His Mother at the Cross. As such we are to Honor our Father and Mother and in what would would it be wrong to honor our Spirtual Mother.

Mary is not God and us Catholics do understand that but she is our advocate just as she was for the Apostles to as she was given to us all as our Spiritual Mother.

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray. O GOD, whose only begotten Son, by His life, death, and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

 

[2ndGen]

In the last 5 centuries, there have been people who believed it was the “ultimate authority”. And again, the fact that no Church Tradition or doctrine that I know of directly contradicts it – rather, probably bases the doctrine partially on the interpretation of it – seems to me to say that it IS definitely A pillar of truth, if not THE pillar of truth.

Again: What is your view on the Bible?

Here’s a good question(s) Hannah…

How do you “know” that Scripture is the ultimate authority without that being told to you?

And if it’s told to you and you trust it,
then aren’t you giving the person who revealed this to you authority to teach you?

And finally, if 500 years is good enough to accept something, what does that say about 2,000 years of Christian belief that has always taught opposite to what was believed by relatively few Christians from 500 years ago until today?

 

[2ndGen]

I am not arguing that the Church was necessarily fallible on matters of doctrine. I do see the distinction between the two.

 

[2ndGen]

I would say that Jesus allows free will and therefore it would be possible for people to honor His Mother in a way that is not right.

Great point.

Now…list the standards of Christians loving their mothers.

 

[VWcrazy]

Hannah,

[QUOTEseems to me to say that it IS definitely A pillar of truth, if not THE pillar of truth.]

Well, Hannah, you are now contridicting Scripture. Scripture does not make this claim.

1 Timothy 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Scripture tells us the Church is the pillar of truth and foundation of truth. It does not say the Bible is.

In the last 5 centuries, there have been people who believed it was the “ultimate authority”

The above statement is really very misleading. Yes, there have been people who believed this, but you failed to point out that within Christianity - this is a minority view. Most Christians have not believed this.

Unless you can show the exact Scripture quotation stating “the Bible is the ultimate authority”, then you are not being Biblical and actually supporting a very unBiblical belief.

 

[c659smith]

Hannah,

The main differences in all can be reconcilled and discussed.

The main point is that the Eucharist.

We believe that Chist is truly with us in the Eucharist in Body,Blood,soul,and divinity.

The doctrine of transubstantiation, the teaching that bread and wine are converted into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, is difficult. When Christ first told his followers of it, many rejected him. But Jesus did not clarify his statement or correct their misunderstanding. He simply repeated his command to the disciples at the Last Supper. Some Christians today still have trouble accepting this teaching.

Jesus himself is in the Church and is the Church. The Church is not a building but in our mind, mouth, and heart,

We take Jesus into our body when we go o Communion,

So He is in us and we in Him.
This is what Jesus taught and this is what we practice.

I went to Eucharistic Adoration Friday night where Jesus is placed in a monstrous and yes I spoke to Him and asked for guidance and forgiveness of my transgressions.

I also took time for reflection and kept quiet long enough to receive any answers He may have had for me.

Prayer is a two way conversation.
Ask and you shall receive.

At times it may not be the answer you want but it is answered.

 

[paarsurrey]

Here’s a list compiled to show when certain denominations are founded:
Quote:
Church Year Established Founder Where
Catholic 33 Jesus Christ Jerusalem

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
I don’t know much of the Christian denominations. I just checked from the wikipedia, it does not confirm date given by you for founding the Catholic church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna [1] **around 106 **is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term “Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

So how would you explain this thing?

I understand that every denomination woth the name proves that only their faith is founded in Jesus. Normally every denomination would say “We are the only true Christians” and that others are simple heretics for cults.

Thanks

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
I don’t know much of the Christian denominations. I just checked from the wikipedia, it does not confirm date given by you for founding the Catholic church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna [1] **around 106 **is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term “Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

So how would you explain this thing?

I understand that every denomination woth the name proves that only their faith is founded in Jesus. Normally every denomination would say “We are the only true Christians” and that others are simple heretics for cults.

Thanks

If I may answer this As you are may be correct in that the first time the name Catholic Church was used is A letter written by ST Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna, be for the schism of the East and Western Church in 1056. not sure of the exact year. there was only one Church There for the Statement of regarding the Founding of the Catholic Church is correct.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[2ndGen]

Hannah,

The main differences in all can be reconcilled and discussed.

The main point is that the Eucharist.

We believe that Chist is truly with us in the Eucharist in Body,Blood,soul,and divinity.

The doctrine of transubstantiation, the teaching that bread and wine are converted into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, is difficult. When Christ first told his followers of it, many rejected him. But Jesus did not clarify his statement or correct their misunderstanding. He simply repeated his command to the disciples at the Last Supper. Some Christians today still have trouble accepting this teaching.

Jesus himself is in the Church and is the Church. The Church is not a building but in our mind, mouth, and heart,

We take Jesus into our body when we go o Communion,

So He is in us and we in Him.
This is what Jesus taught and this is what we practice.

I went to Eucharistic Adoration Friday night where Jesus is placed in a monstrous and yes I spoke to Him and asked for guidance and forgiveness of my transgressions.

I also took time for reflection and kept quiet long enough to receive any answers He may have had for me.

Prayer is a two way conversation.
Ask and you shall receive.

At times it may not be the answer you want but it is answered.

You know, I was going to suggest that to my dear friend Hannah…I was going to suggest that she (if she hasn’t already) go to Eucharistic Adoration and just leave herself open to not our encouragements nor to Catholic teachings, but to God…that she let God guide her faith.

If while in the presence of The Eucharist she feels nothing, then it can be confirmed for her that The Catholic Church is “not” what we claim it to be and end of subject for her.

Hannah, you should go to Eucharistic Adoration. Sit in front of The Holy Eucharist placing all of your faith in God that He will reveal to you The Truth.

But bring tissues…you may just end up so overwhelmed with joy, that you may cry.

I have.

God exists.

No bible, no pastor, no Priest, no church, no Church, could compare to the presence of Jesus physically in “the bread of life”.

I strongly reccommend that you challenge your faith and that you challenge what you’ve come to believe or “not” believe in books, in classes, through peers.

If you have faith that God will “not” allow you to be misled, place yourself in the presence of The Holy Eucharist.

This isn’t testing God…it’s testing yourself.

I guarentee you that you will leave there a changed human being and your heart will know something it never knew before…that Jesus is what He said He is…present in “the bread”.

And as for Mary? I used to argue/debate with my Jehovah Witness friend about The Church. She did however feel a tug towards Mary who to her was the biggest stumbling block in Christianity. But one day, behind my back, she prayed to Mary for a sign. She received an undeniable sign.

She stopped doing drugs, drinking, became celibate, quit her unsavory job, decided “not” to take on a job stripping and abandoned the secular materialistic world darn near becomming a nun. While I don’t know the status of her Catholicity today, I do know that she grew to respect The Church and accept that there is something there.

And she LOVES Mary today and prays to her often.

And her life’s changed.

And since the fruits of that tree of her daring to believe that Mary is alive and in heaven are good, it had to be of God from which that tree came from.

And that’s a true story.

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim.
I don’t know much of the Christian denominations. I just checked from the wikipedia, it does not confirm date given by you for founding the Catholic church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic
A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna [1] **around 106 **is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term “Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

So how would you explain this thing?

I understand that every denomination woth the name proves that only their faith is founded in Jesus. Normally every denomination would say “We are the only true Christians” and that others are simple heretics for cults.

Thanks

Assalam Alaikum

It’s the same way that Muslims proclaim that Islam always existed, yet it cannot be traced back historically or documented until the 7th century.

 

[2ndGen]

If I may answer this As you are may be correct in that the first time the name Catholic Church was used is A letter written by ST Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna, be for the schism of the East and Western Church in 1056. not sure of the exact year. there was only one Church There for the Statement of regarding the Founding of the Catholic Church is correct.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thanks 2ndGen.

 

[HannahLisa]

Here’s a good question(s) Hannah…

How do you “know” that Scripture is the ultimate authority without that being told to you?

And if it’s told to you and you trust it,
then aren’t you giving the person who revealed this to you authority to teach you?

And finally, if 500 years is good enough to accept something, what does that say about 2,000 years of Christian belief that has always taught opposite to what was believed by relatively few Christians from 500 years ago until today?

I don’t, yes, and I still fail to see how the Bible is not one of the ultimate authorities, if not the ultimate authority, even for the Catholic Church.

 

[HannahLisa]

2ndGen,

HarperCollins does indeed sell the Satanic Bible. I found nothing on Zondervan’s site concerning Satanism except a book about it written by Christians.

I do not personally know any Catholics who idolize Mary. However, I read a Catholic book in which one character prayed the Rosary and asked Mary to intercede countless times, but never once prayed to God Himself. I found this rather disturbing.

Jesus was not asking to idolize anyone, but rather to emulate some.

I thought Jesus loved us all anyway, including sinners. I don’t know if He would love the “good” people more or not. I would say that honoring His mother would probably make please Him, as well as being obedient to His commands.

Jesus loved sinners so much that He died for us. He is so far beyond us in matters of love that we cannot comprehend it. Somewhere it says that even the publicans love those who love them, yet we are to love those who hate us.

We can love Mary all we want with the love that is appropriate to her. Of course Jesus didn’t idolize her by loving her as His mother. If he had, he would have sinned, and we all know he never sinned.

I don’t know the “standards” of Christians loving their mothers…I would say obedience, speaking well of her, talking to her, and such?

Also, I have been in a Eucharistic Chapel, though I don’t think I quite realized what it was or the entire idea of it. When I went to an Anglican church, the sanctuary was always a holy place for me; it inspired awe. The Eucharistic Chapel did in the same way, but even more so, because of the absolute quiet.

I know God exists – I am here. God has worked in my life and I’m blessed to be able to see His Hand so clearly in some things…It is truly amazing.

I believe Mary is in heaven and alive. In fact, she’s probably the only person besides God Himself who we can be sure is in heaven (would God allow the woman He chose as His Son’s mother to be in hell?).

VWcrazy – thank you for that verse. I will have to look into that more. Would it be accurate, then, to say the Bible is one of the Church’s ultimate authorities?

 

[paarsurrey]

Assalam Alaikum
It’s the same way that Muslims proclaim that Islam always existed, yet it cannot be traced back historically or documented until the 7th century.

Hi

Wa Ulaikumus Salam

Muslims of whatever shade/denomination would admit that Islam was formally founded at hands of Muhammad; no Muslim would deny that. It is in abstraction/generalization that it is held that Islam existed always, and no Muslim would deny that also.

It is only Catholics, to my knowledge, who believe that CatholicChurch was founded by Jesus or Peter; this is not however shared by the Protestants/Reformists. It would be more accurate to say that Christianity was started by Paul.

Jesus alongwith Mary had at that time gone to the East (Persia, Afghanistan, India, Tibet and Kashmir) and there was no direct communications between him and his 12 Apostles. I don’t believe that Paul was a disciple of Jesus and that he was included in the 12.

Sorry, I have a different opinion but on rational reasons.

Thanks

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

Wa Ulaikumus Salam

Muslims of whatever shade/denomination would admit that Islam was formally founded at hands of Muhammad; no Muslim would deny that. It is in abstraction/generalization that it is held that Islam existed always, and no Muslim would deny that also.

It is only Catholics, to my knowledge, who believe that CatholicChurch was founded by Jesus or Peter; this is not however shared by the Protestants/Reformists. It would be more accurate to say that Christianity was started by Paul.

Jesus alongwith Mary had at that time gone to the East (Persia, Afghanistan, India, Tibet and Kashmir) and there was no direct communications between him and his 12 Apostles. I don’t believe that Paul was a disciple of Jesus and that he was included in the 12.

Sorry, I have a different opinion but on rational reasons.

Thanks

What Protestants believe is irrelevant to Christianity because they didn’t exist until the 16th century themselves. Christianity existed 1500 years before they did.

As for Christianity being created by Paul, well, if that was the case, then it would be named Paulism (which many Protestants consider themselves as Paulists and they refer to universal Christians as Papists).

Take into consideratin that they (Protestants) only make up 15% of Christianity, their beliefs or desires don’t make up what Christians in general believe.

That’s like stating that New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont truly represent the entire United States.

Now, being that Jesus Christ stated that it was Peter who would be the one upon whom He would build His Church and that Paul was subject to Peter, it’s obvious to anyone who knows The New Testament that Peter was the first Pope of The Catholic Church.

But one doesn’t have to take my word for it. Secular sources also state this as fact. It’s just a historical fact.

It’s much like the Shiites being used to represent Islam when Sunnis make up (coincidentally) 85% of Islam.

 

[HannahLisa]

2ndGen,

Could you give us the source saying that Protestants make up 15 percent of Christianity?

 

[2ndGen]

Glad you asked:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Take into consideration when you run the numbers that The Catholic Church includes more than just The Latin Rite (although The Latin Rite is the largest).

Add up all the non-Protestant Churches and you’ll get the 85% figure (roughly speaking).

If you include those Protestant churches that are Catholic-like (like the Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc…), the number grows.

 

[VWcrazy]

don’t, yes, and I still fail to see how the Bible is not one of the ultimate authorities, if not the ultimate authority, even for the Catholic Church.

Where does Scripture state that it is? Please give exact Book, Chapter, and verse.

If you can not do so, then you not following Scripture. In fact, you are acting in direct contridiction to the teachings of Scripture.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

It is only Catholics, to my knowledge, who believe that CatholicChurch was founded by Jesus or Peter; this is not however shared by the Protestants/Reformists. It would be more accurate to say that Christianity was started by Paul].
Paul was the most evangelical of the the Church fathers, But the Church was founded by Jesus the Christ. Who set Peter as the leader.

Jesus alongwith Mary had at that time gone to the East (Persia, Afghanistan, India, Tibet and Kashmir) and there was no direct communications between him and his 12 Apostles. I don’t believe that Paul was a disciple of Jesus and that he was included in the 12.

Please clarify what you are saying here I’m lost.