Why follow a religion made up by Martin Luther in 1500 and not Christ himself?

  • Thread starter Thread starter stefany379
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh really? Then why is it that the Catholic Church is the only “Christian denomination” left that recognizes the permanence of the matrimonial bond?
I did a huge study on Lutherinism, I guarantee you they recognize and promote the permanence of the matrimonial bond.
As Cathollics we recognize it as well, but we hand out annulments left and right.

To me, Marriage, as is Priesthood, and every other Sacrament is a sealed Covenant in the eyes of God, only humans try as they might to break this bond.

Seperation in cases of violence, is valid.

I am sure this won’t sit well with many, but I believe God never breaks a promise, a covenant with his people.

Peace, Lisa
 
I will never understand why protestants and other shootoffs from Catholisism, want to follow a religion made up by Martin Luther in the 1500’s? JESUS did not start The Protestant religion, but The Catholic religion. …
Perhaps you should have said, “…to follow a religion unitentionally started by Martin Luther…”

One of his main ideas was using the Bible Alone (Sola Scriptura in Latin) and not following Sacred Tradition along with scripture. This is a man-made tradition (small t) and we are warned against this in the Bible.

1 Cor 11:2 hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 shun those acting not according to tradition…
Jn 21:25 (not everything Jesus sad is recorded in Scripture)
2 Pet 1:20 No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation

These are explained more in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is available online.

Mimi
 
Lutherans to my knowledge, do not believe in the Real Prescence, which was held by the Early Fathers.
I think it depends on which Lutherans you are talking about. There are numerous synods. I have discussions all the time on stuff like this with an elderly Lutheran lady who tells me that many do believe in the Real Presence as well as the physical body and blood of Christ present in the Eucharist. There is an official Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is, I believe, a bit more tolerant of various views than other Synods. I don’t know what the others think, but probably the Wisconsin and Missouri synods would be stricter on this matter.
 
I will never understand why protestants and other shootoffs from Catholisism, want to follow a religion made up by Martin Luther in the 1500’s? JESUS did not start The Protestant religion, but The Catholic religion. We have an unbroken link dating back 2,000 years in which noone else can claim.
Do you know how many “churches” make this VERY SAME CLAIM? Why are you right over them? You have no more Scriptural proof than any of them do. Don’t give your tired and worn out verses to argue otherwise…darn, I sounded like a catholic when I said that :).

My intention is not to ridicule. It is to show you how we on the outside look at ALL of the worlds “churches”. You are all the same because you ALL sound alike when it comes right down to it.

Sorry, but it is true.
 
Do you know how many “churches” make this VERY SAME CLAIM?
Name even one that does this, aside from the Orthodox Churches (which in fact do date back to the Apostles - they have other issues, though).

My original religion was quite up front and proud of the fact that it originated on June 10, 1925. We even had “birthday” parties every June, celebrating that fact.
 
Do you know how many “churches” make this VERY SAME CLAIM? Why are you right over them? You have no more Scriptural proof than any of them do. Don’t give your tired and worn out verses to argue otherwise…darn, I sounded like a catholic when I said that :).

My intention is not to ridicule. It is to show you how we on the outside look at ALL of the worlds “churches”. You are all the same because you ALL sound alike when it comes right down to it.

Sorry, but it is true.
I do not mean to be mean, but the Catholic Church[besides the Orthodox Church-but there are other problems] is the only Church that makes the correct essertion.
If you will not even heed the words of the Fathers then what point is their in arguing with you about this?
The Bible would not contain this information, because the papacy, was created after the writings of the bible were finished.
I also hope you know where the Bible came from.
 
Martin Luther challenged the “selling of indulgences by the higher ups in the Catholic church” He wanted to return to previously held Catholic traditions.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. He was never just challenging abuses. He was challenging the idea that the Pope held the power of the keys and thus could dispense people from punishment in purgatory. Luther was working out of a radical Augustinian theology and didn’t believe that human beings could do anything other than acknowledge their sin and throw themselves on the mercy of God. The idea of trying to get out of punishment was repellent to him. Eventually (the chronology is disputed) this theology developed into a full-blown doctrine of justification by faith alone, and whatever you say about that it wasn’t just a “return to previously held Catholic traditions.”

From the point of view of the Catholic Church, Luther’s biggest heresy was his attack on Catholic sacramental theology in the Babylonian Captivity. This was a “return” in the sense that he criticized many later medieval developments, and on many points called for a return to patristic practice (communion in both kinds, for instance, or a more communal and communion-centered understanding of the Eucharist). But on some points it was anything but–his rejection of any kind of sacrificial understanding of the Eucharist, for instance.

Edwin
 
Personally, I dont have a clue. Not reading any of the posts here is what I came up with just off the top of my head
St Basil the Great
Of the dogmas and kerygmas preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the Apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the Gospel in its vitals."
In short, the Faith of which the Fathers speak (including its prolife ethic) is revealed, not merely by Scripture alone, but by Scripture rightly understood (and only rightly understood) in the context of a larger tradition which is just as much from God as the Scripture it interprets.
##Contrast that with this:
Luther, it seems, was confronted with the question of whether or not the Landgrave Philip of Hesse, an important official of his day, might enter into a bigamous marriage. When pressed to render a judgment in the matter, Luther (together with Philip Melancthon) concluded that monogamy was no necessary part of the Christian revelation and that polygamy was a legitimate practice for a Christian. In his words:
I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in such a matter.
(from the book by Mark Shea the lens in my eye- exerpted from Chapter 6 of By What Authority?: An Evangelical discovers Catholic Tradition)

##I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say, St. Basil makes sense.

Anyone else agree?
 
I am very sorry, if you saw what was written as very harsh. I know that Lutherans believe in God, just as Catholics do. We both believe in eternal life.
However, Lutheranism invovled the changing of various beliefs before, that exist before it in the Catholic Church.
Lutherans to my knowledge, do not believe in the Real Prescence, which was held by the Early Fathers.
You’re wrong. There may be Lutherans who disbelieve in it (there are Catholics who disbelieve in it), but Lutheranism officially teaches that Christ’s true Body and Blood are present in, with, and under the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Edwin
 
I think it depends on which Lutherans you are talking about. There are numerous synods. I have discussions all the time on stuff like this with an elderly Lutheran lady who tells me that many do believe in the Real Presence as well as the physical body and blood of Christ present in the Eucharist. There is an official Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is, I believe, a bit more tolerant of various views than other Synods. I don’t know what the others think, but probably the Wisconsin and Missouri synods would be stricter on this matter.
Lutheran teaching on the Real Presence may seem somewhat vague simply because we cannot explain how the Body and Blood of Christ are present in what appear to our human senses to be bread and wine. For better or worse, Lutheran teaching rejects the doctrine of transsubstantiation. Despite what many claim, we do not teach consubstantiation. What we do teach is that because Jesus has said “this is my body” and “this is my blood” we believe that he acts in the Sacrament to make it true. How he does it we don’t know but we have faith in his words and his promise.

Peace,
Gary
 
Why do you prefer a man-made church to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ – God Himself --Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – for the salvation of the world?

The famous English writer G.K. Chesterton, when asked why he became a Catholic, answered: “To get my sins forgiven.”

Peace to all, Katholikos
I love a church who was headed by a leader whom Jesus gave him the authority, no man can build a church without God’s help!! If anyone think that building a church is easy, then i suggest everyone of us can go tried ourselve.
There isn’t anything that we aim practising that are not right to God, our aim as Christ disciple (our church vision) is to raise a good of young believers whom shall take the my nation by storm in years to come. If Catholic church are really for them i’m sure they will go to where God move them to. My church does not force member whom wanted to move out to other churches as we believes that we are all equal in the eye of God.

All sins will be forgiven if you confess out by words to others and have a heart for repent. So if God is not tangible, he would even be bother about me worshipping him in a protestant man made church and blessing me every single request i asked from him.

I do not like to convince any Catholic about protestant practise, becoz i do hope they can start put where they are and continue their journey but i welcome pple who have problem understanding protestant practise
 
You’re wrong. There may be Lutherans who disbelieve in it (there are Catholics who disbelieve in it), but Lutheranism officially teaches that Christ’s true Body and Blood are present in, with, and under the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Edwin
I did say that some of them do not. And not all. I guess I stated it wrong.
 
Lutheran teaching on the Real Presence may seem somewhat vague simply because we cannot explain how the Body and Blood of Christ are present in what appear to our human senses to be bread and wine. For better or worse, Lutheran teaching rejects the doctrine of transsubstantiation. Despite what many claim, we do not teach consubstantiation. What we do teach is that because Jesus has said “this is my body” and “this is my blood” we believe that he acts in the Sacrament to make it true. How he does it we don’t know but we have faith in his words and his promise.

Peace,
Gary
A Catholic priest is the only one who has the authority to turn The Bread and Wine into The Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Accept it, read The bible. you people believe it is merely a symbol and nothing more. Go to a Catholic mass and see how Holy the whole transformation is, you will cry.
 
That sounds nice, but it simply cannot be true. What do you base this statement on?
Protestant self-understanding. I was apparently less clear than I intended to be. I deliberately said “intrinsic” importance–my point being that an identity as Anglican or Methodist or Presbyterian or whatever is not a “religion” in itself. Protestants are pretty unanimous about that, with a very few exceptions. What matters is to be a Christian.

I don’t mean that the theological matters under dispute are unimportant. For that matter, the Jesuits and Dominicans who called each other heretics in the 16th century didn’t think their differences were unimportant either. (And yes, I know that the Pope told them to stop calling each other heretics, and that is a very practical way in which the Catholic Church has unity we don’t have.) My point is that just as a Dominican would not say “my religion is Dominicanism” but “my religion is Catholic Christianity, and it is rightly expounded by St. Thomas and his followers,” so a Presbyterian would not say “my religion is Calvinism” but “my religion is Christianity, and Calvin basically got Christianity right.”
Jesus taught us to be loving of all people, but nothing about a growing, and even changing version of Christianity.
Sure he did. He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, which implies a gradual process. You can’t seriously try to tell me that Catholicism has not grown. (Whether it has “changed” is a matter of definition–by most people’s normal usage it certainly has.)
I think the real question is; why were those traditions even began in the first place?
For various reasons. A tradition of vernacular hymn-singing, for instance, originated in the early Church but became especially important in the Continental Reformation as a form of lay congregational piety, and became popular in England in the 18th century as part of the “evangelical revival” of that era. Catholics just don’t get it. It’s an evangelical thing–one of the most powerful means of grace for many of us. I can’t see that it’s any less legitimate than, say, the Rosary.

The same with the tradition of the small group Bible study and/or accountability group (what Wesley would call “class meetings”). Is it really un-Catholic? For that matter, Catholics do it. But it doesn’t have the same importance for you that it has for us–it has flourished among us, as has private lay Bible reading as a mainstay of devotional practice.

Theologically, we have the Wesleyan tradition of universal prevenient grace, which no doubt Augustine would consider Pelagian, but which attempts to preserve the universal salvific will of God without positing a natural ability to turn toward God. Also the doctrine of Christian perfection, which can easily be abused but which attempts to articulate just how and in what way ordinary Christians can hope for holiness in this life.
What do you mean incorporate them into the broader stream of christianity?
I mean correct them where they are unorthodox and offer them to the broader Church.
What is this stream?[j/QUOTE]
Christianity as a whole, particularly Catholicism and secondarily Orthodoxy.
 
Ok that makes more sense, thanks for taking the time to clarify.

One point to counter though:
Sure he did. He said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, which implies a gradual process. You can’t seriously try to tell me that Catholicism has not grown. (Whether it has “changed” is a matter of definition–by most people’s normal usage it certainly has.)
I know Catholcism has grown. We are still growing in truth. We understand things better all the time. However to grow and to change (as in imply a direct 180 to dogmas, and fundamentals) are two differing things.

To further understand or define a belief or practice is entirely different, from waking up one day and saying, “hey you know this whole insert item here we were wrong about that.”

I am not saying there has never been a case where the Church has changed on a issue. But NEVER on dogmas. Take limbo as an example.
 
A Catholic priest is the only one who has the authority to turn The Bread and Wine into The Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Accept it, read The bible. you people believe it is merely a symbol and nothing more. Go to a Catholic mass and see how Holy the whole transformation is, you will cry.
Are you telling me that you know what I believe better than I do? In no way do I believe that it is merely a symbol. As a Lutheran, I have no doubt that it is the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Peace,
Gary
 
Are you telling me that you know what I believe better than I do? In no way do I believe that it is merely a symbol. As a Lutheran, I have no doubt that it is the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Peace,
Gary
Do you doubt that your pastor has the authourity to do this? Or is this something you don’t doubt?
I ask since I am not sure how long your branch has thought this way, and when it started to, and who was the pastor who was the first one that did this thinking it would be okay to do just because he thought so.
I’m confused.
 
Ok that makes more sense, thanks for taking the time to clarify.

One point to counter though:

I know Catholcism has grown. We are still growing in truth. We understand things better all the time. However to grow and to change (as in imply a direct 180 to dogmas, and fundamentals) are two differing things.

To further understand or define a belief or practice is entirely different, from waking up one day and saying, “hey you know this whole insert item here we were wrong about that.”

I am not saying there has never been a case where the Church has changed on a issue. But NEVER on dogmas. Take limbo as an example.
I’m not challenging that. I said that it all depended on how you use the word “change.” When we speak of someone “changing their mind,” for instance, we’re using it much as you are. But we often use the word to refer to growth and development that doesn’t contradict what went before. I would say that this broader sense is the more normal meaning of the word. But it all depends on context.

Edwin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top