Why follow a religion made up by Martin Luther in 1500 and not Christ himself?

[stefany379]

You are right! We are to Love, not judge.

However, there is a right and wrong. People tend to forget this these days. It’s called relativism. It is when someone’s opinions are just as correct as another’s regardless of what the facts are. That is why the world is upside down. We have too much tolerance because we “accept” to many beliefs/practices that should have been rejected a long time ago.

Religious indifference is also bad because there can only be ONE truth not the many.They are not all equal.Both Apostolic Churches have the greatest claim to the truth then any other church out there.

Not all “Christian” Churches preach the truth and therefore are not God’s Churches. They are in name only.

Jesus preached the truth above all else.

“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”

Excuse me,
Jesus was only born a Jew. His people turned against Him. They left Him there to die!! They didn’t believe even after all His miracles, they hated Him. Therefore He told Peter He would give him the keys to The Kingdom of Heaven, this started The Catholic Church. St. Paul was converted from Judaism on the road to Damascus, was baptized, then went and spread The Word Of God. Wanting to get to Rome but persecutions by the Jews hindered Him from accomplishing his purpose. He eventually ended up in Rome where he died in the year 67.
Jesus didn’t criticize His religion, He didn’t critisize anything, He was God and God is love.

 

[stefany379]

I’ve read convert stories out the wazoo. I practically had *Rome Sweet Home *memorized at one point.

And the Newman quote is simply wrong. There are lots of Protestants who are deep in history, and lots of Catholic would-be “apologists” who use their Catholicism to protect them from history. Witness the recent claim that the Reformers just “started their own denominations” because no existing church quite fit their beliefs. No one who was deep in history could make a claim like that.

Edwin

If you read stories out the “wazoo”, then you must of learned something. You are in total denial if you read these many stories, yet still fail to acknowledge the truth. And Newman said EXACTLY that line. Having been Protestant and after much research, he decided to track the early church and found that the Catholics were the only ones who had an unbroken link all the way to Christ himself. Realizing this, he converted…read his story before you speak.

 

[rr1213]

If you read stories out the “wazoo”, then you must of learned something. You are in total denial if you read these many stories, yet still fail to acknowledge the truth. And Newman said EXACTLY that line. Having been Protestant and after much research, he decided to track the early church and found that the Catholics were the only ones who had an unbroken link all the way to Christ himself. Realizing this, he converted…read his story before you speak.

I’m afraid that if you’ve seen many of Contarini’s posts, you’d know that he would be quite familiar with the story of Cardinal Newman, a former Church of England Bishop who converted to the Catholic faith.

 

[jay29]

Excuse me,
Jesus was only born a Jew. His people turned against Him. They left Him there to die!! They didn’t believe even after all His miracles, they hated Him. Therefore He told Peter He would give him the keys to The Kingdom of Heaven, this started The Catholic Church. St. Paul was converted from Judaism on the road to Damascus, was baptized, then went and spread The Word Of God. Wanting to get to Rome but persecutions by the Jews hindered Him from accomplishing his purpose. He eventually ended up in Rome where he died in the year 67.
Jesus didn’t criticize His religion, He didn’t critisize anything, He was God and God is love.

I don’t understand how this has to do with my post…

I was stating that all christian faiths are NOT equal just because they say they believe in Christ. They should not be treated the same.Protestants came around after 1511ad. They are far less legit than the Apostolic Churches.

 

[Contarini]

If you read stories out the “wazoo”, then you must of learned something.

I learned a lot.

You are in total denial if you read these many stories, yet still fail to acknowledge the truth.

That may be true, stefany, but what are you going to accomplish by saying this? You seem to think that simply pronouncing what you believe to be true, without producing a single argument in its favor, is going to persuade people. I’m sorry, but that’s not how discussion works.

And Newman said EXACTLY that line.

I know that. I’ve read quite a bit of Newman, and I respect him greatly. But he was wrong on this point.

In his defense, he was dealing (as many Catholics are today) with a resurgent, aggressive evangelical Protestantism that disregarded tradition and was deeply hostile to Catholicism. He’s quite right that being deep in history makes you cease to be that kind of Protestant. But it doesn’t necessarily make you Catholic (or Orthodox). It makes you more thoughtful and reflective and less prone to simplistic black-and-white characterizations. Thus, it makes you cease to be a certain kind of Catholic as well. There are folks on all sides who are deep in history, and many more who are not.

Probably no one who is deep in history is a fundamentalist, though. I’ll give you that. (As long as we’re defining fundamentalist narrowly, that is.)

Edwin

 

[confuzed]

Stephany - you say Jesus didn’t criticize his religion? Well, he certainly criticized its leaders.
Read Matthew, about the Woes to the Pharisees.
Jesus and Paul both died Jews. Neither ‘converted’.
Peter was a Jew as well.
What later became Christianity began as a Jewish sect with a leader they considered to be the true Messiah.

 

[glimmer]

I’ve read convert stories out the wazoo.

Me, too! I have listened to many, many Catholic converts who are now angry anti-Catholics. Many people don’t grasp the gospel until someone outside their circle explains it to them. This is because people tune out what they’ve heard all their lives. Then they get angry at where they’ve come from and wonder why no one ever explained things to them before. Perhaps the truth was always there but they had not eyes and ears for it.

The fact is, most people have been nurtured in a religious bubble and have developed a filter through which they see and hear. As a result, they have wrongheaded notions about what other people think and believe and how they live. Witness the Protestants who believe “once saved, always saved” and those who believe you can lose your salvation. They are always preaching about how the other group’s beliefs lead them to immoral living. When you get to know them, they don’t lead lives that are very different.

Enough of this Us vs. Them mentality. That is not the Church that Christ built. It is group identity. The real Church identifies with Christ.

 

[Contarini]

Hello Damascus.
Simply put, Edwin is saying that he doesn’t believe in the sacrament of Holy Orders.

No, I’m not saying that. I believe that Holy Orders is a sacrament, but I believe that it proceeds from and depends on the primary sacrament of baptism. I can agree with most of what the CCC says about it, but certainly there is some difference. So if you simply mean “Edwin doesn’t believe in Holy Orders exactly as we do” then of course you are right.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

If it helps, I couldn’t relate to that story, either. It seemed very emotional, to me, which would be fine except for the claim that they studied their way into the Church.

Well, in all fairness I think most people’s conversions are less rational than they claim. Actually I did relate to it quite a bit, but then I started to see things as a bit more complex.

One of my best friends in my early years in grad school was Tim Gray–a student of Hahn’s who is now teaching at the seminary at Denver and leads a regular Bible study broadcast on EWTN. Some of you may know about him. He tried very hard to convert me to Catholicism, and he nearly succeeded.

Edwin

 

[lrs]

Jesus was not a Catholic, he was a Jew. So was St. Paul.

Religious sectarianism divides. That is what the Pharisees did, and the Saducees, and any who sought their identity by what group they followed.

Group identity makes us self-righteous and it leads to an ‘Us against Them’ mentality. That is exactly what Jesus spoke AGAINST.

We must stop thinking of ourselves as Catholics, or Americans, or as ‘right’ compared to others ‘wrong.’
God states clearly in Isaiah that ALL will be blessed by him.
And elsewhere, that through Abraham ALL the nations of the earth will be blessed.

If we would stop being just another sect of Christianity and study and read what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID we would realize that he criticized his own religion, not the so-called heretics.

He called his own nation to repentance, not anyone else.
We are to take the beam out of our own eyes, not point smugly at the splinter in someone else’s eye.

We are to love, not judge.

A VOICE OF REASON, WISDOM AND COMPASSION!!!
THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO HEAR.
THANK YOU!
PEACE, LISA

 

[stefany379]

Stephany - you say Jesus didn’t criticize his religion? Well, he certainly criticized its leaders.
Read Matthew, about the Woes to the Pharisees.
Jesus and Paul both died Jews. Neither ‘converted’.
Peter was a Jew as well.
What later became Christianity began as a Jewish sect with a leader they considered to be the true Messiah.

You show me one scripture where Jesus has any criticism or hate against anyone. Read about St. Paul’s story. You can even google it. Everyone knows the story of his conversion, except you.

 

[stefany379]

Well, in all fairness I think most people’s conversions are less rational than they claim. Actually I did relate to it quite a bit, but then I started to see things as a bit more complex.

One of my best friends in my early years in grad school was Tim Gray–a student of Hahn’s who is now teaching at the seminary at Denver and leads a regular Bible study broadcast on EWTN. Some of you may know about him. He tried very hard to convert me to Catholicism, and he nearly succeeded.

Edwin

Your stubborness and arrogance will one day turn on you. You seem to be a man knowing that the Catholics are right, but refuse to budge out of fear. Your in total denial, just reread your posts.
As for Scott Hahn, Guy Doud and the rest of them, you had the chance to listen but failed. This is what Jesus talks about in The Bible. Scott Hahn HATED the Catholic Church. I know because I have his tapes and he says so right on there. He is now in a good position for “listening” and knowing the truth.

 

[lordgrog]

Apologies for sticking my head in, I’m afraid I couldn’t resist.

He’s quite right that being deep in history makes you cease to be that kind of Protestant. But it doesn’t necessarily make you Catholic (or Orthodox). It makes you more thoughtful and reflective and less prone to simplistic black-and-white characterizations. Thus, it makes you cease to be a certain kind of Catholic as well. There are folks on all sides who are deep in history, and many more who are not.

Agreed, but…
All this ‘deep in history’ stuff is really a bit silly, it’s just a matter of degree - to be deeper in history, is to cease to be christian.
Whatever the merits of his various assertions, Newman’s conversion must also be viewed in light of his unpopularity with the English hierarchy - it’s easy to leave with a foot up your bottom.

Regarding the OP: Like Catholics usually for cultural/social reasons. While ethnicity is less significant today than in the past, we still have plenty of cultural hangovers. If one is English then chances still are (despite the CoE’s best efforts) that you’re going to be (at least nominally) Anglican - if Greek, then Orthodox - if Finnish, then Lutheran - if Italian, then Catholic and so on and so forth. Oh, and of course some nutters may actually believe that they’re the ones who have it right.

Cheers
C

 

[rr1213]

No, I’m not saying that. I believe that Holy Orders is a sacrament, but I believe that it proceeds from and depends on the primary sacrament of baptism. I can agree with most of what the CCC says about it, but certainly there is some difference. So if you simply mean “Edwin doesn’t believe in Holy Orders exactly as we do” then of course you are right.

Edwin

Maybe neither of us make good Anglicans. I refute the 39 Articles regarding free will and predestination and you hold Holy Orders to be a sacrament.

 

[rr1213]

Your stubborness and arrogance will one day turn on you. You seem to be a man knowing that the Catholics are right, but refuse to budge out of fear. Your in total denial, just reread your posts.
As for Scott Hahn, Guy Doud and the rest of them, you had the chance to listen but failed. This is what Jesus talks about in The Bible. Scott Hahn HATED the Catholic Church. I know because I have his tapes and he says so right on there. He is now in a good position for “listening” and knowing the truth.

Why are you so angry? Everyone of your posts in this thread has been just short of a rant. What’s your story? Seriously. Did you convert from a religiously abusive fundamentalist sect? I’m curious.

 

[Contarini]

Your stubborness and arrogance will one day turn on you. You seem to be a man knowing that the Catholics are right, but refuse to budge out of fear. Your in total denial, just reread your posts.
As for Scott Hahn, Guy Doud and the rest of them, you had the chance to listen but failed. This is what Jesus talks about in The Bible. Scott Hahn HATED the Catholic Church. I know because I have his tapes and he says so right on there. He is now in a good position for “listening” and knowing the truth.

Stefany,

We could insult each other for weeks and not get anywhere. Can’t you see that this is pointless? You have yet to say anything substantive–you just rant and spew out insults.

It’s incredible to me that anyone could think that this is actually “defending” Catholicism.

If you have something to say, for goodness’ sake say it. The fact that you can only rant and rave indicates that you really don’t know how to defend Catholicism. Apparently you can’t deal with the fact that there are relatively intelligent people out there who have thought about Catholicism and are not convinced. Who is really in denial?

As for rereading my posts–no thanks. As G. K. Chesterton said (yes, I’ve read him too!), there’s a proper division of labor in these things.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Maybe neither of us make good Anglicans. I refute the 39 Articles regarding free will and predestination and you hold Holy Orders to be a sacrament.

I was never asked to subscribe to the Articles. My first rector definitely held Orders to be a sacrament (he was a Nashotah grad). He argued that the five “lesser sacraments” are sacraments but are subsidiary to the two “sacraments of the Gospel.” That makes sense to me, and could possibly be reconciled with the CCC.

It all depends on what you mean by a sacrament, of course.

Edwin

 

[JimmyJeff]

I joined the Lutheran Church because my husband was Lutheran. I didn’t go to church at the time and honestly, had he been Catholic I probably would have joined the Catholic Church. I didn’t even really know the difference except that the Lutherans were very friendly, welcomed me with open arms, made me take 4 classes and I was in!

Most of us have no idea HOW to even become Catholic or to be welcomed into the Catholic community. No one ever invited me to a Catholic Church in MY life until I was 37 and that person said, “You can come with me once, but it’s family time and I don’t to take you more than that”. Seriously, pretty much my whole life I wanted to go but it all seemed so mysterious. You guys have your own schools, your own sports leagues and your own VBS’s where only Parishioners may attend.

Contrast the Lutheran Church where the whole community is invited and it’s so much less intimidating. Most Protestants do not feel wanted or invited to the Catholic Church. Once I got up the nerve to go on my own and I had no idea what to do and no one said a word to me. Again, contrast that to the Lutheran Church where they have a welcome book, welcome committee and donuts. Maybe even a sign on the front of the Catholic Church saying visitors welcome or something?

Yeah, I know none of that is doctrinal but most people just want to be a little bit comfortable in a foreign surrounding. Most people become Catholic because their spouse attends or because they really want to be Catholic and are quite tenacious about it.

 

[rr1213]

I joined the Lutheran Church because my husband was Lutheran. I didn’t go to church at the time and honestly, had he been Catholic I probably would have joined the Catholic Church. I didn’t even really know the difference except that the Lutherans were very friendly, welcomed me with open arms, made me take 4 classes and I was in!

Most of us have no idea HOW to even become Catholic or to be welcomed into the Catholic community. No one ever invited me to a Catholic Church in MY life until I was 37 and that person said, “You can come with me once, but it’s family time and I don’t to take you more than that”. Seriously, pretty much my whole life I wanted to go but it all seemed so mysterious. You guys have your own schools, your own sports leagues and your own VBS’s where only Parishioners may attend.

Contrast the Lutheran Church where the whole community is invited and it’s so much less intimidating. Most Protestants do not feel wanted or invited to the Catholic Church. Once I got up the nerve to go on my own and I had no idea what to do and no one said a word to me. Again, contrast that to the Lutheran Church where they have a welcome book, welcome committee and donuts. Maybe even a sign on the front of the Catholic Church saying visitors welcome or something?

Yeah, I know none of that is doctrinal but most people just want to be a little bit comfortable in a foreign surrounding. Most people become Catholic because their spouse attends or because they really want to be Catholic and are quite tenacious about it.

All of this no doubt depends on the people involved. I’ve had Catholic friends invite me to Mass, of course they also knew that I was inquiring of the Catholic Church at that time.

 

[Sufi]

I will never understand why protestants and other shootoffs from Catholisism, want to follow a religion made up by Martin Luther in the 1500’s? JESUS did not start The Protestant religion, but The Catholic religion. We have an unbroken link dating back 2,000 years in which noone else can claim. JESUS did not start 33,000 denominations with contradictory beliefs. Bishop from bishop, pope to pope, 265 of them later, all the way to St. Peter himself. I am grateful I know the truth and The Blessed Mother. She is appearing everywhere and people are ignoring her calls. We will never be at peace because of this.
Everyone knows The King James Bible has many errors, yet they ignore that fact. King Henry was a mad man, beheaded 3 of his wives, yet he started The Church of England. Why follow it? there are many people who are coming home to Rome because they know the true religion. There are 1.5 Billion of us for a reason. I love the authority in my church, the strict doctrines, the Holy Mass, The Real Presence. It is very Holy, it isn’t cheap grace.

According to Islam you all fell off. Muslims are the true Christians.