Why forbid homosexuals from being ordained as priests?

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You see these sources don’t give any legitimate data. I just spent an hour combing through the sources for the first one (which is speaking about pedophilia even though it has already been stated that the main problem is pederasty) and all that has been proven by them is that in cases of pedophilia the offenders are more likely to choose a victim of the same sex than an average person would be likely to choose an adult partner of the same sex. In fact in one of the central studies to their primary claims (Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles.) they openly stated that all of their randomly selected control subjects, a pool of 663 men, indicated in response to an anonymous questionnaire that they were heterosexual in regards to their adult attractions. So the study actually shows that a greater percentage of pedophiles are heterosexually oriented in regards to adult relationships than are homosexually oriented. The pedophiles polled didn’t even have the normal homosexual ratio of 2-4% or roughly 20 of them would have declared themselves homosexual. What is being confused here is the idea that an attraction to a young child of the same gender is equivalent to an attraction to all people of the same gender, that is not the case, attractions to children are very different than attractions adults and the two need to be separated to have an accurate evaluation of the matter. The first source completely fails to do that and didn’t even bother to properly read its own studies, it is thus invalidated from any properly informed discussion. These types of sources exist all over the internet, if you want to have an actual discussion about precise things like numbers you need to post peer reviewed studies, not long commentaries on studies that were not subject to peer reviews.

The second link simply didn’t offer any evidence, just the comments of one high ranking man from the Church, in addition the article also mentions that Pope Benedict XVI said the exact opposite two years earlier so it isn’t like it was a statement you can claim church authority on.
 
You see these sources don’t give any legitimate data. I just spent an hour combing through the sources for the first one (which is speaking about pedophilia even though it has already been stated that the main problem is pederasty) and all that has been proven by them is that in cases of pedophilia the offenders are more likely to choose a victim of the same sex than an average person would be likely to choose an adult partner of the same sex. In fact in one of the central studies to their primary claims (Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles.) they openly stated that all of their randomly selected control subjects, a pool of 663 men, indicated in response to an anonymous questionnaire that they were heterosexual in regards to their adult attractions. So the study actually shows that a greater percentage of pedophiles are heterosexually oriented in regards to adult relationships than are homosexually oriented. The pedophiles polled didn’t even have the normal homosexual ratio of 2-4% or roughly 20 of them would have declared themselves homosexual. What is being confused here is the idea that an attraction to a young child of the same gender is equivalent to an attraction to all people of the same gender, that is not the case, attractions to children are very different than attractions adults and the two need to be separated to have an accurate evaluation of the matter. The first source completely fails to do that and didn’t even bother to properly read its own studies, it is thus invalidated from any properly informed discussion. These types of sources exist all over the internet, if you want to have an actual discussion about precise things like numbers you need to post peer reviewed studies, not long commentaries on studies that were not subject to peer reviews.

The second link simply didn’t offer any evidence, just the comments of one high ranking man from the Church, in addition the article also mentions that Pope Benedict XVI said the exact opposite two years earlier so it isn’t like it was a statement you can claim church authority on.
Very interesting. I look forward to JDs response.
 
For some same sex attracted priests, communal living may be too close of an occasion of sin.
It was certainly proven to be too close of an occasion of sin when this happened with great frequency in the '80’s. (i.e., significant critical mass of SSA seminarians) The result was not just internal scandal, but – perhaps more importantly (and referred to earlier) – critical morale problems/discouragement on the part of heterosexual seminarians, due to the acted-out inclinations of their brothers.

There are some dynamics that are important to remember here:

(1) any group that has been, or has perceived itself to be, an ‘injured’ or ‘oppressed’ minority, tends to react in larger group settings by adhering to each other more intensely, more cliquishly. This was proven to be a dynamic, again, in the '80’s, where there were gay “subcultures” within the seminary resulting in a sense of exclusion for straight seminarians. Not only is this unhealthy for seminary formation, it is opposed to Christian charity, in that community is an essential feature of religious life – whether vowed or diocesan. So there were both theological/spiritual and practical effects from admission to the seminary of those who identified as SSA (and often acted on that!)

The further theological, spritual, and practical ramifications of this were addressed well by JReducation in a much earlier thread, wherein he discussed how and why formation directors weed out those men who have such a “prejudice” (favoritism) for their own gender that it limits their ability/inclination/desire to relate to the whole mixed-gender People of God (parishes, academies, more). There are gays and there are gays. We’ve all known gays who are affectionate toward the opposite sex and enjoy the opposite sex immensely. Unfortunately, that (again) was not the pattern in the '80’s. The gays attracted to seminary life did not include (in my personal acquaintaince with that history) very many who even tolerated the opposite sex much, let alone viewed them as equals, as having separate dignity, as having equally legitimate needs, as worthy of affection, etc. Rather, for these gays, seminary became an Opportunity Club for them: at the very least, an opportunity to be exclusive with other gays; at worst, an opportunity to have sex with selected others, and even some cases :eek: with a group

(2) Most men view sexual desire differently than most women do. (I stress the word “most” in both cases.) There is a “determinism” about culmination/consummation for most men that heightens the difficulty for them in postponing that indefinitely or permanently, when attraction develops. That appears to be inborn and is likely a by-product of the biological drive to mate. It’s not that it’s impossible; of course not; otherwise, there wouldn’t be both SSA and non-SSA celibates among the clergy who have been able to postpone that, sublimate it, etc. However, again, it’s a matter of dynamics when a critical mass of candidates who openly identify as SSA, and who discuss their sexuality and their “gay identity,” etc., enters an institution.

When, by not addressing the issue, tacit “permission” is given to one group of seminarians to “be who they are,” then by extension the logical result is serious temptation to ‘culminate’ relationships. As another poster said, this is why celibate heterosexual priests do not share a rectory with unattached heterosexual women.

I do disagree with the poster who implied that gay men are more ‘sexed up’ than straight men. I think the two groups are equally sexual. (There is a small subset of both males and females that are more ‘asexual’ than the rest of us and have a high tolerance for ascetism in general, but they are a tiny percentage of the population.) The difference is, straight seminarians are discouraged from sitting around talking about babes they would enjoy mating with. In the '80’s, there was a double standard operating in many seminaries. So I think the current prohibitions are designed partly to get separation from that recent history.

(3) I think the contemporary world, as has often been noted on CAF, and formally discussed by Benedict XIV, is sexualized to an extreme. That means that many of us have to go to extreme measures to avoid near occasions of sin, which abound without our looking for them. That, combined with the modern tendency in ‘identity’ movements to define sexuality as identity, multiplies the difficulties for admitting openly gay seminarians, particularly those who have practiced actively in the recent past or for any prolonged period of time – such as living with a lover, etc.

(edited to say that I meant to include both the '80’s and '90’s)
 
Sorry Patrick:

I really don’t have the time to keep following up on this stuff every couple of months. It takes too long. In my first reply to you, I grabbed the first two google sites that showed up. I am sorry that they were not to your standards. Below, I have given a few more. I hope that they better quantify the problem to your liking.

Logically, heterosexual men can, and sometimes do prey on boys, for homosexual pleasure. But, if you know males, the statistical odds are against it. Now, in the Catholic Church it is estimated that 25% - 80% of Priests are homosexual. If it is 80%, I give them great accolades and appreciation for maintaining their celibacy and marriage with Jesus. However, in my opinion, disordered heterosexual males would be more than likely to seek out females rather than males, for conjugal activities. Normal males, even celibate males, will greatly prefer females.

But, the majority of pederasty complaints, for the past decade or so, have been about male–male relations. If the numbers of homosexuals in the Church is indeed 80% then gays far outnumber non-gays. Stands to reason that they, then, could be said to be the perpetrators of the majority of such licentious acts. That the percentages of such acts within the Church are about half the exterior world, is a testament to Catholicism qua Catholicism, IMHO.

Also, if you want more articles that give a more scientistic type proof, I suggest that you go to the internet or to a good library. Though you might have to wait awhile as I don’t think many exist, as of right now. Yet, the preponderance of evidence is clearly in my favor. As you read through the aforementioned websites, you should come to that realization. Here is an interesting quote:

But pederasty is probably historically the most common form of homosexuality in Western culture, as well as many other cultures. It exists in all cultures, and in some is considered the norm, even today (e.g., Iran, among the Pashtuns). To label it ‘child abuse’ or ‘child molestation’ is preposterous and stupid. – David Thorstad, founder of NAMBLA

Please do your own research on this. I am sick and tired of reading about this stuff. If you find some real contention, then let me know.

Links:

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3165

renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/100822

americansfortruth.com/homosexual-hate/homosexual-pedophilia-pederasty

irish-nationalism.net/showthread.php/13181-Pederasty-and-the-Nazi-campaign-against-the-Church

maybetoday.org/2010/07/the-great-retreat-of-pederasty/

nambla.org/pederasty.htm

God bless,
jd
 
You seem to believe that only homosexual priests were involved in the sex abuse scandals. I have never read that. Even the John Jay Report does not point to homosexuals as “the reason” for the sex abuse cases.

The acts were, in 80% of the cases, homosexual acts.
This does not mean that the priests involved were homosexuals.
For most cases it appears that they were heterosexual (this from the John Jay Report).

Can you provide a link to a study that identifies these priests as homosexuals?
This point confuses me. How can one be attacted to those of the same sex even though they are adolescences and be truly heterosexual. You are speaking an oxymoron and any report that wants to make this claim is speaking an oxymoron. At best these men are bisexual not heterosexual. If you want to make the claim that these priests are bisexual that is a different story but heterosexual? Well that is just being, well something.
 
This point confuses me. How can one be attacted to those of the same sex even though they are adolescences and be truly heterosexual. You are speaking an oxymoron and any report that wants to make this claim is speaking an oxymoron. At best these men are bisexual not heterosexual. If you want to make the claim that these priests are bisexual that is a different story but heterosexual? Well that is just being, well something.
The John Jay Study identifies only 7.3% of the individuals in the study having the sexual relationship problem “Sex with Adult Men” (“Sex with Adult Women” 5.8%).
As Barbkw points out
Married men in Muslim tribes in Afghanistan keep young boys on the side for their sexual enjoyment.
Heterosexual couples can have this sort of intercourse - it is not limited to homosexuals.

The scandal is having sex with children.
No study has identified homosexuality as the reason for this abuse.
So, the question remains, why prevent them from entering the priesthood?
 
So, the question remains, why prevent them from entering the priesthood?
The answer remains the same. Clergy sexual abuse is only a symptom, not the reason. The reason homosexual men are not suitble for priesthood is that homosexuality is objectively disordered. Men with significant disorders be they emotional, social or psychological, even to some extent physical, are not suitable.
 
The John Jay Study identifies only 7.3% of the individuals in the study having the sexual relationship problem “Sex with Adult Men” (“Sex with Adult Women” 5.8%).
As Barbkw points out

Heterosexual couples can have this sort of intercourse - it is not limited to homosexuals.

The scandal is having sex with children.
No study has identified homosexuality as the reason for this abuse.
So, the question remains, why prevent them from entering the priesthood?
Dark:

If 25% - 80% of Priests are homosexual, who’s preventing them?

God bless,
jd
 
Dark:

If 25% - 80% of Priests are homosexual, who’s preventing them?

God bless,
jd
Where do we get this stastic from? It is also such a large range to be almost meaningless.

I could just as easily say that 0% - 100% are homosexual.
 
Where do we get this stastic from? It is also such a large range to be almost meaningless.

I could just as easily say that 0% - 100% are homosexual.
An article in one of the previous posts indicated that 25% - 80% was the range of current thinking regarding the numbers of priests who are homosexual. Later on, the article indicated that somewhere around 30% - 40% was probably more like it. In any event, it’s a sizable number (no less than 22%, in another place).

There’s no way of actually knowing, short of polling every priest. Considering the present shortage of clerics, another article seemed to think that the priesthood could easily become the vocation of choice for gays.

I am not ratifying that 80% figure, mind you; I think it’s rather inane, as well. But, what I was trying to convey is that 98% of Priests are blameless of such activities, and that it makes sense that the percentage of homosexuals linked to pederasty would somewhat relatively high.

God bless,
jd
 
An article in one of the previous posts indicated that 25% - 80% was the range of current thinking regarding the numbers of priests who are homosexual. Later on, the article indicated that somewhere around 30% - 40% was probably more like it. In any event, it’s a sizable number (no less than 22%, in another place).

There’s no way of actually knowing, short of polling every priest. Considering the present shortage of clerics, another article seemed to think that the priesthood could easily become the vocation of choice for gays.

I am not ratifying that 80% figure, mind you; I think it’s rather inane, as well. But, what I was trying to convey is that 98% of Priests are blameless of such activities, and that it makes sense that the percentage of homosexuals linked to pederasty would somewhat relatively high.

God bless,
jd
Isn’t the percent of homosexual priests who are blameless likely to be very very high? So while rule out all people with SSA from becoming priests? Why is it important for people who do not act on sexual attraction to be sexually attracted to women?

Also, PatrickSebast pointed out that pedophiles and pederstasts who prey on males are more likely to be heterosexual rather than homosexual in their adult attractions, so it seems that your statistical argument falls completely flat and perhaps the statistics even suggest that heterosexuals are more likely to abuse young and teenage boys.
 
The John Jay Study identifies only 7.3% of the individuals in the study having the sexual relationship problem “Sex with Adult Men” (“Sex with Adult Women” 5.8%).
As Barbkw points out

Heterosexual couples can have this sort of intercourse - it is not limited to homosexuals.

The scandal is having sex with children.
No study has identified homosexuality as the reason for this abuse.
So, the question remains, why prevent them from entering the priesthood?
I think your link is not going to where you want it to. But that being said, if I being a man is attracted to another person no matter what their age of the same sex am experiencing same sex attraction. Those who experience same sex attraction hare either homosexual or bisexual not heterosexual. I understand that there are people out there who want to justify their attractions for the same sex without being classified as being gay. They can try to justify it all they want to. But the definition of homosexuality or bisexuality defines what they are experiencing not the definition of heterosexuality. This is an attempt by the pseudo-science pychology to pull the blame off of who it should be thrown on.

If you are attracted to a person of the same sex as you no matter what their age you are either homosexual or bisexual. You are not heterosexual. What you are claiming and if the report you are quoting from if they are claiming what you are claiming is claiming an oxymoron.
 
An article in one of the previous posts indicated that 25% - 80% was the range of current thinking regarding the numbers of priests who are homosexual. Later on, the article indicated that somewhere around 30% - 40% was probably more like it. In any event, it’s a sizable number (no less than 22%, in another place).

There’s no way of actually knowing, short of polling every priest. Considering the present shortage of clerics, another article seemed to think that the priesthood could easily become the vocation of choice for gays.

I am not ratifying that 80% figure, mind you; I think it’s rather inane, as well. But, what I was trying to convey is that 98% of Priests are blameless of such activities, and that it makes sense that the percentage of homosexuals linked to pederasty would somewhat relatively high.

God bless,
jd
The facts are no one knows the number. These percentages that are getting quoted are guesses and I don’t believe in guesses. The only figure you can come up with that can make any sense is make a comparable analysis to the general population. If in the general population 1-2% are gay then you would have to determine that 1-2% of priests are gay. There is no proof whatsoever that I have seen that shows this disproportionate amount is true.
 
Because historically, they have been responsible for most of the child sex abuse in the Church. And, it’s hard enough for a normal person to live out their vocation as a priest, without tacking on the extra burden of homosexual tendencies.
Pedophiles and homosexuals are not the same people.
 
Pedophiles and homosexuals are not the same people.
No but there are pedophiles that are either homosexual or bisexual and there are a disproportionate (80-90%) number of homo/bi-sexual pedophiles that committed the atrocities that the Church is trying to stop.
 
I suppose that could be the case – I don’t know. I’m a social worker, and I felt compelled to point out the distinction. Pedophilia does not constitute a sexual orientation, and that was the point I wished to make. Pedophilia is a very, very sad situation, because the perpetrator is almost always a victim himself – in his early childhood, he suffered the same crime he himself is now committing. A pedophile is indeed made, not born, and he perpetuates the crimes of the individual who violated him. Meanwhile, there is little to no evidence that a pedophile is a homosexual – typically, a pedophile “goes after” someone who reminds him of himself; thus completing a cycle to which he himself was so cruelly subjected. In psychology, this is likened to “projection” – when one accuses another of a trait, to avoid self-knowledge that they themselves possess that trait. Like when someone says “You are so judgmental!” and they are in the middle of judging you, as they say it. The pedophile is acting out the scene he endured, and is caught in a repetition-compulsion thought loop of pain.

So, while pedophilia is so abhorrent and violent, it’s very difficult to decide what to do about it, as the perpetrator has experienced the same abuse himself. It’s sad also that treatment for sexual abusers is so seldom successful. The wounds are very deep, and the behavior has unconscious roots.

The same way one might say that rape is not a sexual act – it is a violent one, and more about power than about sex – so too, pedophilia is more a violent act than a sexual one. But a homosexual act is about sex. An important distinction.
 
Why is it important for people who do not act on sexual attraction to be sexually attracted to women?
For one thing, it’s important that priestly candidates not be imbalanced in any significant area, including in their preferences for one gender over another. (Please refer to my earlier post on this thread.) The priesthood is not a private club. It is a calling to be outward in one’s love and actions, equally toward all people.

For another thing, the fact that priests live with other men, not with women, requires greater scrutiny of their level of attraction to men than their level of attraction to women.

For a third thing, the Church is always concerned about the percentage of vocations and the maintenace of those ranks. Those vocations are not helped by internal morale problems, nor problems that rise to the level of media attention such as other sexual scandals. (The practice of homosexuality within seminaries and rectories has discouraged enrollment in the past.)
 
For one thing, it’s important that priestly candidates not be imbalanced in any significant area, including in their preferences for one gender over another. (Please refer to my earlier post on this thread.) The priesthood is not a private club. It is a calling to be outward in one’s love and actions, equally toward all people.

For another thing, the fact that priests live with other men, not with women, requires greater scrutiny of their level of attraction to men than their level of attraction to women.

For a third thing, the Church is always concerned about the percentage of vocations and the maintenace of those ranks. Those vocations are not helped by internal morale problems, nor problems that rise to the level of media attention such as other sexual scandals. (The practice of homosexuality within seminaries and rectories has discouraged enrollment in the past.)
Agreed. The church must vet these men who want to be priests. Why? To insure that they are getting men meant for the priesthood. If someone is joining the priesthood hoping that this will help them overcome their pedifilia or on the flip side have greater access to children then these men must be discovered and rejected. They are not joining the priesthood for the right reasons. The same is for gay men. If a gay man is wanting to join the priesthood out of guilt for his attractions or is not willing to hold on to the calling of the priest to be celebate then he is not joining the priesthood for the right reasons and must be rejected. That seems to me to be the correct direction the vetting process should take.

I think in the past the church was more afraid of the loss of vocations than insuring the right men where becoming priest and allowed too many unqualified men into the priesthood. I and I believe that Pope Benedict as well would prefer quality over quantity.
 
I think in the past the church was more afraid of the loss of vocations than insuring the right men where becoming priest and allowed too many unqualified men into the priesthood.
Does that mean that the Church erred?
 
Does that mean that the Church erred?
Yes this means that the policy used if this was the policy was not the best policy to use. Don’t confuse policy with doctrine Leela. If you are looking for a smoking gun to attack the infallacy of the church this is not it. The church can err in policy which isn’t protected in by the doctrine of infallacy not in matters on teaching of faith and morals.
 
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