Why Gay?

[estesbob]

That’s debateable. It may very well be that the behavior of the inhabitants to strangers was the reason God destroyed S&G, and not for voluntary homosexual acts used to express love between two people in a committed, loving relationship.

Not really debateable at all. These passages have been interperted the same way for over 3,000 years. Its only in the last 30 to 40 years that the new improved interpertation(made by those trying to convince us homosexual behavior is OK) was made.

 

[mercygate]

I suggested that Leviticus was a good starting place, not the be all and end all of it and I’m not asking about the finer points of Hebrew cerimonial law or “Natural Moral Law” which I feel is highly relative at best due to the very term used. What’s moral might not be natural, what’s natural may not be lawful,and what’s lawful may not be moral.

Suggesting that I go study up on Natural Moral Law is ducking a fairly straight question and “what’s written on the face of creation” is certainly different for each who beholds.

Forgetting the shirts of mixed fibre, anyone else got two cents?

If you actually study natural law, you will find that it is neither “highly relative” about it. All morality is to some degree relative because it deals with people. It is written on the face of creation that gravity works. It is not all that different for each who beholds.

You betray either naivete or an already determined conclusion by your post.

 

[santaro75]

I’m not going to subscribe to this thread, so don’t look for further direct answers from me, but you will find that the prohibitions in Leviticus are not the only source of the Christian/Jewish position on this.

It begins in the natural moral law. Are you at all familiar with that? It is the reason that Christians may appear to “pick and choose” about the observance of certain commandmants. Those commandments that (in Paul’s words) “are written on the face of creation” – are immutable. Contraception comes under that as does abortion, masturbation, pornography, divorce, adultery, murder, theft, . . . . Hebrew ceremonial laws are not morally binding.

so masturbation or yelling at someone is the same in God’s eyes in seriousness as being a practicing homo sexual?

heaven might be vacant

 

[mercygate]

so masturbation or yelling at someone is the same in God’s eyes in seriousness as being a practicing homo sexual?

heaven might be vacant

If you are Catholic, then you know that masturbation is, indeed, considered to be as serious as homosexual acts. Yelling at someone? How did that get in this thread? But if you’re asking, Jesus himself says that anger is the equivalent of murder.

Heaven would be vacant only if nobody ever repented. That’s why Jesus came to us.

 

[Valke2]

I wasn’t commenting on God’s view of homosexuality. Only that the reasons for destroying S&G may not have been because the people there practiced homosexuality.

That interpetation, contrary to what someone else posted here, was not always the one followed. In fact, none of the prophets view S&G as being destroyed for the sin of homosexuality.

Cruelity and lack of hospitality to the stranger seem to be the reasons for God’s judgment. They had no consideration for the poor, they would not sell food or water to a stranger.

There really is very little in the story of Sodom to suggest the sin for which they were punished was homosexuality.

There is much to suggest the sin was tied to lack of hospitality to the stranger.

 

[mercygate]

I wasn’t commenting on God’s view of homosexuality. Only that the reasons for destroying S&G may not have been because the people there practiced homosexuality.

That interpetation, contrary to what someone else posted here, was not always the one followed. In fact, none of the prophets view S&G as being destroyed for the sin of homosexuality.

Cruelity and lack of hospitality to the stranger seem to be the reasons for God’s judgment. They had no consideration for the poor, they would not sell food or water to a stranger.

There really is very little in the story of Sodom to suggest the sin for which they were punished was homosexuality.

There is much to suggest the sin was tied to lack of hospitality to the stranger.

Valke2, can you post some links to ancient sources and the scriptural citations demonstrating this view? I have heard it before but have never seen it supported.

Thanks.

 

[Mirdath]

Valke2, can you post some links to ancient sources and the scriptural citations demonstrating this view? I have heard it before but have never seen it supported.

Thanks.

Easy. Ezekiel 16:49-50 (NAB): And look at the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in their prosperity, and they gave no help to the poor and needy. Rather, they became haughty and committed abominable crimes in my presence; then, as you have seen, I removed them.

Pride and inhospitality were their principal sins.

 

[Mijoy2]

Why are all awkward questions answered by accusations of “Moral Relativism” rather than any attempt at address?

Moral hand wringing? Other than my heinously evil position of having no opinion, I never professed any support for a pro-gay agenda, I’m really not that interested in what others do in private, I was of the opinion that it was between them and God. Forget my original question, as it’s lost on most here and no-one is going to admit that they simply don‘t know.

Of course, if you feel the need to condemn homosexuals (that I obviously don’t) let rip to your hearts content, but I fail to see how you’re going to stop it. Let me re-phrase that, I know how some would chose to stop it, but I’m not going to wait for everyone else to be rounded up before you come for me with my “evil” neutral position which is defacto against yours.

Durendin, The topic of homosexuality and why it is perceived as wrong in Catholicism has deep theological roots. These theological roots stem from the deep theological concepts of the Sacrament of Matimony.

There have been some pretty thick books that deal with this subject in great theological detail. The depth and beauty of these spiritual concepts cannot be adequetly answered in a forum such as this. Forums, by nature, can give one ideas and direct one to a deeper learning elsewhere. This is what I’d recommend to you. Pope John Paul II Theology of the Body, is probably the most complete manner of answering your question*.* Although Christopher Wests tapes and or books might be a bit of an easier read. I haven’t read Theology of the Body but I have listened to West’s tapes. These concepts helped enlighten me on why through marriage and through marriage only is the marital embrace to be enjoyed. I wish you luck on your search, it is a difficult idea to embrace.

 

[mercygate]

Easy. Ezekiel 16:49-50 (NAB): And look at the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in their prosperity, and they gave no help to the poor and needy. Rather, they became haughty and committed abominable crimes in my presence; then, as you have seen, I removed them.

Pride and inhospitality were their principal sins.

Thanks. Any further reference to where and when “haughty and abominable crimes in my presence” became “Sodomy”?

Hmm. Maybe it’s time to go to the Hebrew and do a study on the word “abominable.” I know it is used in reference to idolatry, and is also used in reference to homosexual acts – in English translations of Scripture anyway. Certainly in the NT Paul equates homosexuality with idolatry. I wonder if that’s the train of thought.

 

[mercygate]

Why are all awkward questions answered by accusations of “Moral Relativism” rather than any attempt at address?

Moral hand wringing? Other than my heinously evil position of having no opinion, I never professed any support for a pro-gay agenda, I’m really not that interested in what others do in private, I was of the opinion that it was between them and God. Forget my original question, as it’s lost on most here and no-one is going to admit that they simply don‘t know.

Of course, if you feel the need to condemn homosexuals (that I obviously don’t) let rip to your hearts content, but I fail to see how you’re going to stop it. Let me re-phrase that, I know how some would chose to stop it, but I’m not going to wait for everyone else to be rounded up before you come for me with my “evil” neutral position which is defacto against yours.

The Catholic position relates essentially to the marital act as between the divinely created “man” – “male and female he created them” – both procreative and unitive.

Homosexual acts, by their very nature, cannot be unitive between a husband and wife nor can they produce children.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks. Any further reference to where and when “haughty and abominable crimes in my presence” became “Sodomy”?

Hmm. Maybe it’s time to go to the Hebrew and do a study on the word “abominable.” I know it is used in reference to idolatry, and is also used in reference to homosexual acts – in English translations of Scripture anyway. Certainly in the NT Paul equates homosexuality with idolatry. I wonder if that’s the train of thought.

The prohibition of men lying with men as if with a women is an abomination in the original Hebrew as well.

 

[mercygate]

The prohibition of men lying with men as if with a women is an abomination in the original Hebrew as well.

Thanks, Valke2! I knew I could count on you. So when Ezekiel refers to “abominations in my sight” is that Bible code for men lying with men?

In light of the use of the word abomination in referring to idolatry, and by extension to ritual sexual practices of the idolaters, it would not seem to be an extravagant reach to consider “abomination” as a code word for that.

I just read Leviticus 18. It is ALL about sexual integrity and relates specifically to the “abominable” practices of the heathen whose practices “defiled the land.” Here the Lord commands Israel not to give their children to Moloch in sacrifice “in fire.” Idolatry and homosexuality, along with adultery, intercourse with animals and with family members, are all condemned as “abominations in my sight.”

Seems there’s no way to exclude homosexuality – along with all the other forbidden sexual practices – from the reasons God destroyed the cities of the plain, since the word “abominable” is used.

 

[Valke2]

Thanks, Valke2! I knew I could count on you. So when Ezekiel refers to “abominations in my sight” is that Bible code for men lying with men?

In light of the use of the word abomination in referring to idolatry, and by extension to ritual sexual practices of the idiolaters, it would not seem to be an extravagant reach to consider “abomination” as a code word for that.

D’ya think?

I don’t know. I don’t think it is a code word for that. If “abomination” is used solely for idolatry and certain sexual acts (and I don’t know if it is), then maybe the reason these acts were prohbited inthe first place is that they were associated with idolatry of other pagan cultures. I read somewhere that male prostitution was part of a cultic pagan religion at the time.

I’ll run a concordance on abomination if I can find my Tanakh program and get back to you.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t know. I don’t think it is a code word for that. If “abomination” is used solely for idolatry and certain sexual acts (and I don’t know if it is), then maybe the reason these acts were prohbited inthe first place is that they were associated with idolatry of other pagan cultures. I read somewhere that male prostitution was part of a cultic pagan religion at the time.

I’ll run a concordance on abomination if I can find my Tanakh program and get back to you.

I was editing my post when you responded. I had done a search for the string “abomina” and came up with 186 references. It is overwhelmingly used as a reference to idolatry.

And yes: sacred prostitution and other non-marital sexual acts were associated with pagan cultures.

One of the things I just wrapped my brain around recently was Paul’s consistent linking idolatry with adultery.

The lightbulb went on when I realized the connection via the history of Israel in relation to pagan practice. (Duh. I’m slow, but I get there eventually!)

 

[Valke2]

ok. THe word "abominatin appears 69 times in the Tanakh (no jokes please).

Gen 43:23: Discusses Egyptians not eating with Hebrews, it being an abmonation to the Egyptians.

Ex. 8:22 is Idolatry reference re sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to God.

LEv. 11:10; is a dietary prohbition. (no snakes, eels, etc.)
THere are a half dozen or more abominations that have to do with dietary restrictions in Lev. Chapter 11 (An interesting topic as to why the dietary abominations were ignored and the sexual abominations upheld).

Deu. Chapter 7. abomination references are for idolatry issues.

Deu. 12:31 is an idolatry/child sacrifice abominaiton.

Dey 17:1 has to do with improper sacrifices (blemished animals).

Cross dressing is an abomination (Deu. 22:5)

Prostitution associated with temple worship. Abomination.

Remarrying your divorced wife (under certain circumstances). Abomination. (Deu. 24:4)

Cheating in business (not having honest weights) Abomination.

Eziekel talks about one man commiting an abomination with his neighbor’s wife.

Proverbs also lists deceitful scales (cheating in business) as an abomination

Those that are preverse in heart (rather than sincere in their worship) are an abomination (Proverbs)

The sacrifice of the wicked = abomination (Proverbs)

Kings who commit wickedness are an abomination

What makes man an abomination is scorn. (Proverbs 24:9)

An unjust man is an abomination (Proverbs)

Turning away from Torah is an abomination (Proverbs again)

 

[wisdom_3_5]

LEv. 11:10; is a dietary prohbition. (no snakes, eels, etc.)
THere are a half dozen or more abominations that have to do with dietary restrictions in Lev. Chapter 11 (An interesting topic as to why the dietary abominations were ignored and the sexual abominations upheld).

Well, because of Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16. There is no vision making sexual abominations “clean”.

The next day, while they were on their way and nearing the city, Peter went up to the roof terrace to pray at about noontime. He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12 In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky. 13 A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.” 15 The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.” 16 This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into the sky.

 

[mercygate]

ok. THe word "abominatin appears 69 times in the Tanakh (no jokes please).

Gen 43:23: Discusses Egyptians not eating with Hebrews, it being an abmonation to the Egyptians.

Ex. 8:22 is Idolatry reference re sacrificing the abomination of the Egyptians to God.

LEv. 11:10; is a dietary prohbition. (no snakes, eels, etc.)
THere are a half dozen or more abominations that have to do with dietary restrictions in Lev. Chapter 11 (An interesting topic as to why the dietary abominations were ignored and the sexual abominations upheld).

Deu. Chapter 7. abomination references are for idolatry issues.

Deu. 12:31 is an idolatry/child sacrifice abominaiton.

Dey 17:1 has to do with improper sacrifices (blemished animals).

Cross dressing is an abomination (Deu. 22:5)

Prostitution associated with temple worship. Abomination.

Remarrying your divorced wife (under certain circumstances). Abomination. (Deu. 24:4)

Cheating in business (not having honest weights) Abomination.

Eziekel talks about one man commiting an abomination with his neighbor’s wife.

Proverbs also lists deceitful scales (cheating in business) as an abomination

Those that are preverse in heart (rather than sincere in their worship) are an abomination (Proverbs)

The sacrifice of the wicked = abomination (Proverbs)

Kings who commit wickedness are an abomination

What makes man an abomination is scorn. (Proverbs 24:9)

An unjust man is an abomination (Proverbs)

Turning away from Torah is an abomination (Proverbs again)

Nice job! My search was for “abomina” so it pulled up “abomination” and “abominable.” Lots of food refs. But a lot of the forbidden foods (not all by any means) are animals worshipped by pagans. Of course, pagans also woshipped cattle, and they’re OK, so it’s not a 1:1 connection.

 

[goofyjim]

I tend to redefine the whole socio-political scene. I agree that homosexual acts are sinful but am happy with my homosexual orientation. To me happy still means gay. Therefore I see no problem with being gay.

 

[Valke2]

Nice job! My search was for “abomina” so it pulled up “abomination” and “abominable.” Lots of food refs. But a lot of the forbidden foods (not all by any means) are animals worshipped by pagans. Of course, pagans also woshipped cattle, and they’re OK, so it’s not a 1:1 connection.

They worshipped lamb as well (another clean animal). In fact one of the reasons given for the use of lamb’s blood on the doorpost for passover was that the Egyptians worshipped the lamb. Kind of a snub against the Egyptians.

 

[pablo_rafael]

Why is it that some hell-worthy trespasses are now acceptable every day occurances (I was going to do a list, but I’d be surprised if it was really required) and yet homosexuality is still held in the contempt it receives?

Is this not simple picking and choosing?

It seems that in any period of time there are “sins” that are given the distinction of being “the bad ones”. Then there are the ones that are are so widespread that we can pretty much ignore them; they are the “not so bad sins”.

In my grandparents day the worst thing that one could possibly do was to get pregnant outside of marriage. (for the women only; it wasn’t considered all that bad for the guy.) Grandma talked about how the young women were shunned (They had to get up in the church service and make an apology to the entire congregation, this was in the Lutheran church.) and were forever thought of as immoral women.

The Biblical position is that all people have sinned. God tells us that breaking one point of the law breaks the whole law. Not a one of us is good on our own; it is only by God’s grace shown to us through Christ’s death on the cross that we have forgiveness and the certainty of eternal life. When Jesus tells the crowd that those who are without sin can cast the first stone, he makes the point that all are in need of forgiveness.

Those of us who are gay somehow are reviled as the most vile sinners. When people find out one is gay, it is amazing how quickly one gets treated as a pariah, like it is a contagious disease. I think it is a lot because there are so few of us (3% - 10% of the population by most estimates) that we get targeted.

Also I think the Christian fundamentalists who are so in charge of the religious media in the United States have made us a handy target group. It is a badge of how holy and right they are if they stand up very strongly against something. Interesting how with their multi-millions they don’t ever mention the idolatry of materialism and greed.

Also at fault are the homosexual activists who promote all manner of immorality and give the rest of us a bad name.

Even if one thinks that homosexuality is a sin (which I don’t, I don’t see any clear Biblical points aginst it. But that is a little outside the topic of this thread), I don’t think it justifies discrimination against a minority group. If it is a sin, then it is one sin among many. It is not worse than the other sins we commit every day. It still requires God’s grace and forgiveness.

I must give us Catholics credit, however. I have found the Catholic church much less focused on condemnation and more focused on love than much of protestantism. Much of conservative protestantism is willing to throw us out. To them we deserve hell and they are glad to send us there.

Tu Amigo, Pablo