Why God allowed gays to born?

[Seeker1961]

Homosexuals/action are not a special brand of sin. They are not born that way, they can change, and the Church and I accept that.

Where does the Church specifically say that any person can change their sexual orientation? Not their choice of behavior…but their actual orientation and who they find attractive.

 

[CopticChristian]

What does any of this have to do with my comment?

It Bob engages in homosexual behaviour, how is it that he needs your (or my) forgiveness? He has not sinned against me. I will pray he repents, he starts to live chastely, and that he ask for Gods forgiveness.

If a homosexual ever came up to me and asked for my forgiveness, I’d tell them it wasn’t necessary, unless that behaviour actually involved me. They have not sinned against me.

Sheila,

I did not address forgiveness…as you pointed out…I asked this…

Pray for those that need to heed the call to God, pray for those that are misguided by the secular world and accept the fixed thinking of the LGBT agenda as proposed by the American Psychiatric Association and forgive as forgiveness allows…

Forgive as forgiveness allows and you confirm that sentiment…continue to pray…

 

[DexUK]

Homosexuals can not be persecuted because they commit suicide too often?

The rate of suicide is higher among homosexuals. Another poster said the suicide rate was because of persecution, but I personally don’t believe that and never suggested it.

It doesn’t prove they aren’t persecuted though. Unless you can give studies that specifically show persecution and suicide can not co-exist? You’ve only shown studies which say persecution doesn’t cause suicide, not that they’re mutually exclusive. Since you mentioned the holocause estimates put approximately 500 000 homosexuals killed in the camps as well. Were they not persecuted too, despite the fact that homosexuals have high suicide rates? Using your argument, no, they weren’t. And really, I’m sure there were both Jews and slaves who did kill themselves - either by giving in and allowing themselves to be killed, or by actually doing the act themselves.

Is it possible that Jews had something to hang onto? That the slaves had something to hang onto? Their faith perhaps? Hope? Family? A combination of some, or all of them? Perhaps it is not the persecution that drives homosexuals to suicide, but the lack of one of these? There are numerous things that come into play about why one group survived and one gave up.

Reality is, homosexuals have been killed for their sexuality. They’ve been mistreated and abused. They’ve been denied housing and employment. That there is a greater likelihood of mental illness doesn’t change the ability of others to persecute them. In some place, it is still routine.

This is no way make homosexual actions ok, but if we’re going to have an open discussion about these things we need to be honest.

Very true.

And those ‘statistics’ quoted are deeply questionable.

First of all, if psychologists report 25-33% alcoholism amongst homosexuals, it’s because it’s a self-selecting survey. The statistics do not refer to the entire population of homosexuals, but only the ones who perceive that they have some sort of problem and present themselves to a psychologist! Naturally you’ll find a high incidence of behavioural and psychological problems in that survey - because that’s why they presented themselves in the first place!

In respect of this bizarre and totally unbelievable figure of “43%” of all homosexuals having 500 or more sexual partners (if you assume a sexually active lifetime of approximately 30 years, that’s one brand new unique partner every 23 days!) - well if you will go surveying homosexuals in ‘cruisey areas’ then what sort of answer did they expect to get? And how did that figure get extrapolated across the whole homosexual population? How about John Doe living quietly in his condo, making ends meet each day, going to work and minding his own business and generally only ‘courting’ a handful of people in his life… Maybe he didn’t get included in these figures because nobody noticed him?

Coptic, if you’re going to quote statistics and if I am expected to rely on them then ensure that they are collated by reputable polling organisations, that the sample size is big and that it’s conducted by an impartial organisation. You don’t draw conclusions, especially for moral arguments, from tiny sample sizes from an already corrupted statistical pool. Until you can provide reliable evidence, then I shan’t give your arguments any recognition whatsoever.

 

[DexUK]

Where does the Church specifically say that any person can change their sexual orientation? Not their choice of behavior…but their actual orientation and who they find attractive.

I’ll answer for you, because I don’t suppose anyone else will…

The answer is nowhere.

The Church teaches us that we have free will to act upon our desires. It does not say that we choose the desires themselves.

 

[Seeker1961]

I’ll answer for you, because I don’t suppose anyone else will…

The answer is nowhere.

The Church teaches us that we have free will to act upon our desires. It does not say that we choose the desires themselves.

That’s how I learned it from the Benedictines, the Jesuits and the Sisters of Charity. I was afraid I’d have to call them all up and tell them they were wrong.

 

[CopticChristian]

Where does the Church specifically say that any person can change their sexual orientation? Not their choice of behavior…but their actual orientation and who they find attractive.

Seeker,

Where does the Church say that whatever sin you commit remains a part of your person following repentance…show me this with example

St. Augustine…Fornicator
St. Paul…Murder
Dorothy Day…Abortion
and what about Norma McCovey?

Show me where we brand people by their past lives…in Christ we are a new Creation…

Show me where sins against Chastity remain an indellible mark on our Soul…after repentance…

 

[Seeker1961]

Seeker,

Where does the Church say that whatever sin you commit remains a part of your person following repentance…show me this with example

St. Augustine…Fornicator
St. Paul…Murder
Dorothy Day…Abortion
and what about Norma McCovey?

Show me where we brand people by their past lives…in Christ we are a new Creation…

Show me where sins against Chastity remain an indellible mark on our Soul…after repentance…

You didn’t answer my question. Asking me something else entirely different doesn’t count as an answer.

** Where does the Church specifically say that any person can change their sexual orientation? Not their choice of behavior…but their actual orientation and who they find attractive.**

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ll answer for you, because I don’t suppose anyone else will…

The answer is nowhere.

The Church teaches us that we have free will to act upon our desires. It does not say that we choose the desires themselves.

Dex,

Those desires do not define you as a person…

I desire whatever does not make me that desire…

In CBT…we are not our thoughts, we are not our actions, we are not our behaviors…this violates a basic tenet of Behavioral Science and is consistent with Church teaching…we are not our thoughts, dreams,desires, imagination or our sin…

 

[DexUK]

Seeker,

Where does the Church say that whatever sin you commit remains a part of your person following repentance…show me this with example

St. Augustine…Fornicator
St. Paul…Murder
Dorothy Day…Abortion
and what about Norma McCovey?

Show me where we brand people by their past lives…in Christ we are a new Creation…

Show me where sins against Chastity remain an indellible mark on our Soul…after repentance…

These are all Acts. Homosexuality - to be instinctively inclined towards same sex attraction - is an instinctive unbidden desire, not an act. Do you not understand the difference?

 

[cheezey]

This thread has a sense of hatred and bitterness about it. We should not question what God has decided what shall be. We should not judge others that is for God to do. There is too much hatred and bitterness in this world and its giving off a toxic cloud.

We should love one another like God loves us, no excuses necessary.

Thank you!!

 

[CatholicSheila]

Sheila,

Freud, Adler, Jung and here you have stumbled on the next school of Psychotherapy, Victor Frankl…Logotherapy…having meaning…life has meaning…it is the individual not society that supplies that meaning and for the individual to suffer suggests that the individual has issues with supplying meaning…

If you believe behavior is fixed, if you believe that your plight is unchangeable, if you believe that there is nothing you can do about your behavior…then that may be a reason to lose hope and the Fundamentalist fixed thinking of the American Psychiatric Association may be doing more harm than good…particularly since it is not true…this takes away all hope for any change and there is possibility of change…this is damage…

So you actually agree that the difference may not be persecution, but the lack of hope? I believe that is one of the things I mentioned that might be different between homosexuals and Jews/slaves.

I made no comment on why they may have a lack of hope.

I personally believe something you wrote is true:
If you believe behavior is fixed, if you believe that your plight is unchangeable, if you believe that there is nothing you can do about your behavior…then that may be a reason to lose hope.

Couldn’t agree more. Society telling homosexuals that they have no choice is not helping. Homosexual behaviour is against natural law - we have that written on our souls and it creates conflict. It’s a personal belief but can’t prove it with studies, but I have experience with it. That’s my conclusion.

That doesn’t in anyway suggest that there hasn’t been persecution. I’m just asking for a little honesty. I don’t think refusing someone housing helps either - the message gets lost in translation and now they’re lost/confused/without hope, and they think everyone hates them. That’s not a good combination.

Yes, I recall too many Homosexuals, Transgendered coming to the emergency room because they put themselves in a position to solicit other men and when discovered were assaulted…too, too many…they are the cause of their own harm in some cases…

You may want to check your facts on employment…this is a non-argument…

freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts

1. America is not the world. There are still plenty of places where homosexuality will get you killed. Plenty of people who will deny employment. Plenty of people who will throw abuse at homosexuals.
2. I didn’t say persecution is happening everywhere today. Just that to say a blanket “homosexuals have not been persecuted” is wrong.

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

Those desires do not define you as a person…

I desire whatever does not make me that desire…

In CBT…we are not our thoughts, we are not our actions, we are not our behaviors…this violates a basic tenet of Behavioral Science and is consistent with Church teaching…we are not our thoughts, dreams,desires, imagination or our sin…

If we are not our thoughts, dreams, desires, etc… then what are we? If our instincts don’t make us people, if our thoughts don’t contribute to us as persons, if our imagination is not relevant to who we are… then what are we? Empty vessels? Mere bags of atoms?

Your proposition is meaningless. And, again, runs counter to the essential dignity of a the human individual as laid out in the Catechism.

 

[cheezey]

Don’t tell me that gays choose to be gays because this is STUPID! I know that most Catholics don’t think that but the evangelicals do!

Too broad a statement for evangelicals; no, they do not as a group, believe this; some do, some don’t…

 

[CopticChristian]

You didn’t answer my question. Asking me something else entirely different doesn’t count as an answer.

** Where does the Church specifically say that any person can change their sexual orientation? Not their choice of behavior…but their actual orientation and who they find attractive.**

Seeker,

The Church teaches this…

A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.

In regard to this second category of subjects, some people conclude that their tendency is so natural that it justifies in their case homosexual relations within a sincere communion of life and love analogous to marriage, in so far as such homosexuals feel incapable of enduring a solitary life.

In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence. But no pastoral method can be employed which would give moral justification to these acts on the grounds that they would be consonant with the condition of such people. For according to the objective moral order, homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality. In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God.[18] This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.

The Catholic Medical Association would be supportive of change as the Church says nothing of this…and the Catholic Medical Association is consistent with published studies that homosexuality is not fixed.

If you like, accept that no change is possible. However the Church does not say this either.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Sorry guys if I sound angry, but I DO NOT see one reason to treat LGBT people the way they’ve been treated, and yet, God created them and now he is punishing them? WHY?

God isn’t punishing them at all. We are. We do all the terrible things to one another, not God.

Some people think God hates certain kinds of people, but God IS love. There is no one God doesn’t love as much as any Pope or Saint or newborn. “I don’t hang with haters.” A great t-shirt slogan. But we also can’t hate haters. That just leads to us becoming one of them. So, no being mad at God for what you think He did that He didn’t and no hating those who hate. No hate.

Same sex attraction is just a trait, like eye color or height or blood type. We are all unique creations. We are all called to love one another.

 

[DexUK]

Seeker,

The Church teaches this…

The Catholic Medical Association would be supportive of change as the Church says nothing of this…and the Catholic Medical Association is consistent with published studies that homosexuality is not fixed.

If you like, accept that no change is possible. However the Church does not say this either.

You are going to have to accept, though, that there are other studies that propose that homosexuality IS fixed.

You may not like them, or agree with them, but you have to accept that they exist. And, indeed, this is why the Church itself teaches us that there isn’t an answer to the question and why it teaches as it does in the Catechism that homosexual people are to be respected and not discriminated against unjustly.

 

[CopticChristian]

If we are not our thoughts, dreams, desires, etc… then what are we? If our instincts don’t make us people, if our thoughts don’t contribute to us as persons, if our imagination is not relevant to who we are… then what are we? Empty vessels? Mere bags of atoms?

Your proposition is meaningless. And, again, runs counter to the essential dignity of a the human individual as laid out in the Catechism.

Dex,

You insult my intelligence and infer little understanding of Self-reflective thinking and Meta Cognition. My proposition has meaning you cannot grasp and that is your opinion. I suggest you do some reading in the field of Meta-cognition, Self reflective thinking, CBT and get back to me.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Sheila,

I did not address forgiveness…as you pointed out…I asked this…

Forgive as forgiveness allows and you confirm that sentiment…continue to pray…

Glad we can agree on that sentiment.

 

[Seeker1961]

Seeker,

The Church teaches this…

The Catholic Medical Association would be supportive of change as the Church says nothing of this…and the Catholic Medical Association is consistent with published studies that homosexuality is not fixed.

If you like, accept that no change is possible. However the Church does not say this either.

Is that a citation from the Catechism?

 

[CopticChristian]

You are going to have to accept, though, that there are other studies that propose that homosexuality IS fixed.

You may not like them, or agree with them, but you have to accept that they exist.

Dex,

This is the point of discussion. If there are opposing sides in any topic in the field of medicine, and I understand you have no medical background or training, and have little understanding of science, then you need to know as I know that when there are two opposing sides of any point of view…

no one knows for sure…and the attempt to silence the opposing view as proposed by the LGBT/American Psychiatric Association is doomed to failure because this is what is called viewpoint discrimination, protected by law.

as a Catholic you should shun the LGBT/American Psychiatric point of view however since your opinion is your opinion, as previously stated without substantiation, you are welcome to your opinion…