Why God (the creator) should be pure actual (changeless)?

[STT]

I don’t see any link between the ability to create and being pure actual.

 

[Gorgias]

Changing implies moving between states of greater and lesser perfection. God is eternally perfect; therefore, He cannot change.

 

[STT]

Changing implies moving between states of greater and lesser perfection. God is eternally perfect; therefore, He cannot change.

Did you read OP?

 

[reggieM]

God created from eternity - not in time - from His immutable wisdom and will. There is no potentiality in God and therefore no change.

 

[setarcos]

I don’t see any link between the ability to create and being pure actual.

Perspective is the link. What is your reference frame?

 

[STT]

God created from eternity - not in time - from His immutable wisdom and will. There is no potentiality in God and therefore no change.

That I know. Let me ask you another question: Could we have a being that is pure actual and is not able to create? What is the link between being able to create and being pure actual?

 

[STT]

Perspective is the link. What is your reference frame?

What do you mean? I am afraid that I cannot understand. I am not a philosopher yet. Just learning and asking questions. Could you please elaborate?

 

[reggieM]

That I know. Let me ask you another question: Could we have a being that is pure actual and is not able to create? What is the link between being able to create and being pure actual?

Having the power to create is greater than not having it. It is a greater perfection to communicate love than to not be able to do that.

 

[STT]

Having the power to create is greater than not having it. It is a greater perfection to communicate love than to not be able to do that.

I am asking whether there is a link between ability to create and being pure actual, not being perfect.

 

[reggieM]

I am asking whether there is a link between ability to create and being pure actual, not being perfect.

The two have to go together. A pure being has to actuate all potentialities. The ability to create is a potentiality, so a pure wholeness of being must possess it and it must be pure act.

 

[Wesrock]

I am asking whether there is a link between ability to create and being pure actual, not being perfect.

Well, to start, the easiest link that God can create is a demontration that anything created is dependent on a being which is pure actuality, so it naturally follows that if all created (caused, ontologically dependent, insufficient to explain their own being) beings are dependent upon a being of pure actuality then this being of pure actuality is therefore demonstrated to have the power to create them.

But I suppose there’s a follow up question: Can any other beings, even if themselves caused by God, create out of nothing? Saint Thomas stated the following:

Besides, the more remote a potency is from act, the greater must be the power that reduces it to act.

So I guess you could say that the more difficult it is to actualize a certain potential in something that already exists (has act), the greater the effecting power must be to make it actual. The further removed the potential actual is removed from being actual, the greater the power needed to make it actual. It’s like a limit, the closer you get to pure potential, the more act you need. Like approaching the speed of light in conventional physics: For an object with mass, it requires more and more energy to approach the speed of light, such that the limit approaches requiring infinite energy for it to be possible, and no matter how close you get from an outsider’s perspective, from your own light still moves at the speed of light away from you.

To create from nothing, you’re operating with nothing actual. No amount of finite act will bring anything about from that, which is equivalent to saying you need a being of pure actuality. As potential approaches 100% (and the actuality you are working with approaches 0), you need a being of “purer” and “purer” act to actualize this more and more remote potential, and it’s an unreachable limit for any finite being whose existence is delimited by its essence, who is less than pure act.

It’s not that creation ex nihilo is a “magic power” attribute that THIS has and THAT doesn’t, anymore than traveling at the speed of light in conventional physics is a magic power or arbitrary attribute. It just follows that no finite act can reduce a potentiality to act if there’s no actual thing to operate on already to bring that potential out of. It takes an unlimited act to cross that threshold.

 

[setarcos]

What do you mean? I am afraid that I cannot understand. I am not a philosopher yet. Just learning and asking questions. Could you please elaborate?

From mans perspective and comprehensive abilities it would seem that creation is change. Our reference frame is from inside creation. From Gods perspective creation just is. Because time is a factor within creation and change from our perspective but not Gods one cant say God existed and creation did not at any one point. This would take a measurement of time span between the two things. You can’t measure Gods age in the way man can understand using time since God is not subject to it. You cant meaningfully distance Gods existence from creations existence with a measurement of time since there is no reference frame for time to exist in outside creation. You cannot age creation externally since times reference frame only applies to creation internally. God created and yet didn’t change because change implies time yet time applies only to creation internally. The best we can do I believe is be silent concerning understanding these seemingly paradoxical statements. Our minds are not equipped to comprehend change in a changeless state of existence outside of time.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Changing implies moving between states of greater and lesser perfection. God is eternally perfect; therefore, He cannot change.

Did you read OP?

Why yes, I did. Didn’t you?

Your title asks why God is changeless. After all, that is a consequence of being pure actuality. And so, I answered you: He is perfect, and therefore, He does not change.

Your question really isn’t one about God as ‘creator’, per se. It’s a question about God’s nature. Whether or not He creates, He is immutable… and perfect.

 

[STT]

The two have to go together. A pure being has to actuate all potentialities. The ability to create is a potentiality, so a pure wholeness of being must possess it and it must be pure act.

So you somehow define that a pure being should have all potentialities? Can something which is not pure create also?

 

[STT]

Well, to start, the easiest link that God can create is a demontration that anything created is dependent on a being which is pure actuality, so it naturally follows that if all created (caused, ontologically dependent, insufficient to explain their own being) beings are dependent upon a being of pure actuality then this being of pure actuality is therefore demonstrated to have the power to create them.

Why a non-pure being cannot have the ability to create?

But I suppose there’s a follow up question: Can any other beings, even if themselves caused by God, create out of nothing? Saint Thomas stated the following:

Besides, the more remote a potency is from act, the greater must be the power that
reduces it to act.

How what you quoted is related to discussion?

So I guess you could say that the more difficult it is to actualize a certain potential in something that already exists (has act), the greater the effecting power must be to make it actual. The further removed the potential actual is removed from being actual, the greater the power needed to make it actual. It’s like a limit, the closer you get to pure potential, the more act you need. Like approaching the speed of light in conventional physics: For an object with mass, it requires more and more energy to approach the speed of light, such that the limit approaches requiring infinite energy for it to be possible, and no matter how close you get from an outsider’s perspective, from your own light still moves at the speed of light away from you.

I agree.

To create from nothing, you’re operating with nothing actual. No amount of finite act will bring anything about from that, which is equivalent to saying you need a being of pure actuality. As potential approaches 100% (and the actuality you are working with approaches 0), you need a being of “purer” and “purer” act to actualize this more and more remote potential, and it’s an unreachable limit for any finite being whose existence is delimited by its essence, who is less than pure act.

It’s not that creation ex nihilo is a “magic power” attribute that THIS has and THAT doesn’t, anymore than traveling at the speed of light in conventional physics is a magic power or arbitrary attribute. It just follows that no finite act can reduce a potentiality to act if there’s no actual thing to operate on already to bring that potential out of. It takes an unlimited act to cross that threshold.

Do you have an argument for that? According to scientist (you can read more here):

In fact, all the matter in the universe could have arisen from a bit of primordial energy weighing no more than a pea.

 

[reggieM]

So you somehow define that a pure being should have all potentialities? Can something which is not pure create also?

Only a pre-existing being can actuate potentialities. Wesrock did a good job anwering this.
So, a human being can create - and make potentialites actual. But human beings are contingent beings and rely on other powers to make their own potential being actual.
Eventually a purely actual being is required to create anything.

 

[STT]

Why yes, I did. Didn’t you?

Your title asks why God is changeless. After all, that is a consequence of being pure actuality. And so, I answered you: He is perfect, and therefore, He does not change.

Your question really isn’t one about God as ‘creator’, per se. It’s a question about God’s nature. Whether or not He creates, He is immutable… and perfect.

Let me ask the question another way: Can something which is not pure create?

 

[STT]

Only a pre-existing being can actuate potentialities.

Of course.

So, a human being can create - and make potentialites actual.

I agree. We can break the chain of causality when we decide, somehow creating something out of nothing.

But human beings are contingent beings and rely on other powers to make their own potential being actual.

I have problem with that. Matter is stable according to science. Soul also does not need a sustainer. I have a thread on this in here.

 

[IWantGod]

Let me ask the question another way: Can something which is not pure create?

It cannot give what is not identical to its nature. If existence is not identical to its nature it cannot by itself actualize potential because only a nature that is identical with its act of existence can give existence to potential.

In other words a potential that is actualized is not realized by its own power, and therefore cannot by itself give reality to potential ,. It exists by the power of that which necessarily exists

 

[reggieM]

I have problem with that. Matter is stable according to science. Soul also does not need a sustainer. I have a thread on this in here.

You don’t believe humans are contingent beings with non-actualized potential?
Forgetting sustainer - how about a creator?