Why good people suffer?

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Today is Holy Thursday the beginning of the Passion of Christ. Once again we will follow His bloody footsteps to Calvary where the God-man will allow Himself to suffer, to be tortured to death at the hands of His creatures, for love of them, to redeem them by taking on the guilt and consequences of their sins. He will be cursed, mocked, whipped, crowned with thorns, driven like a beast up a hill and crucified.

We wonder why God allows us to suffer. The answer to the question is found in this horrible gruesome spectacle.

Jesus says, take up your cross and follow me. If a man refuses to take up his cross he can have no part in me. Jesus is telling us to take up an instrument of torture, suffering and death, and follow Him, do as He does, follow His example.

Suffering is not a test. If God allows us to suffer to see how tough we are or willing to endure pain then God is cruel and not worthy of worship and suffering has no really meaning. A test is not the real thing.

The Church is the mystical body of Christ. We share in Christ’s redemptive work through the cross, the pain and anquish we suffer of all kinds throughout life.

The saints said God gives the heaviest crosses to those He loves most.

Jesus did not say, take up your surfboard and follow me.

Saint Augustine said of the crosses we carry, “It is the cup of medicine no one would dare put to his lips unless the physician had first drunk it to the dregs”.

Jesus did not simply suffer. He willingly suffered. He asked that the cup be taken from Him and His Father said no. Do it if you want your people in heaven with you and saved from hell.
 
BobCatholic said:
I’m wondering why God never created us pure in the first place that way he wouldn’t have to do all of this. And we wouldn’t have to be suffering.

If God made us perfect (as perfect as a mortal can be) then we wouldn’t have to suffer.
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Most of the values that both believer and non-believer hold as “good” only exist in the context of suffering.

Compassion, sympathy, self-sacrifice, courage, self-discipline, charity, hope…all would be meaningless in a world where no one suffered. In such a world, we would be nothing other than smiling biological robots, incapable of meaningful action, incapable of free will.

As we indisputably have free will, despite the claims of Sam Harris’s new book, there will be people who choose to do evil to others. It may not be possible to have a world without both free will and suffering. It would be contradictory, and God does not contradict Himself.

As the world appears to have its own kind of “free will”, bad things will happen in the world, and people get caught in them, even without apparent human agency. For our actions to have meaning, the laws of physics, causality, and entropy have to be there to ensure that we can foresee the course of what we do. And unfortunately, no natural disaster is so bad than human evil won’t make the suffering even worse. Corrupt politicians are bribed to overlook building codes or purchase substandard flood control pumps, looters and rapists and hoarders inflict great evils on those who survive floods and earthquakes and pandemics and famines.

The answer to this all was clearly given to us by our Lord - we are mandated as his followers both to worship him, and love others as we love ourselves. Clearly, Jesus gave us warrant to act in his stead to reduce the suffering of others. If we want to see less evil, we have to do more good. That can be a hard road to follow.

God created us, and gave us this world, as a crucible for proving ourselves for eternity, not as a playground for his cosseted pets. This is a hard truth to realize. But we are the disciples of a crucified Master, and some suffering is going to be inherent in our lives if we want to live in accordance with Him and His commands to us. He gave us the tools we need to fulfill the mandate He gave us - Reason, the Community of other believers, spirit, the Sacraments, Faith, Hope, and Charity.
 
Wretched_one said:
Hello,
If you look at Israel and the lives of all the patriarchs and the prophets and I have seen personally very good people suffer a lot, why does God give so much suffering to good people? Perhaps he is asking them to sacrifice for others, but why the all merciful and all powerful God does not have a method to better distribute the work load amongst all people instead of having to sacrifice a few for all?
Thanks.
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There are a numberr of things going on here. First, there is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is an actual thing the body or mind can experience due to trauma or dissonance. Suffering is the story about the pain we tend to buy in to. In other words, we argue with reality, and that is what constitutes suffering as distinct from pain.

Much mental pain happens when we blame or judge because our personal story about who and what we think we are doesn’t match reality, or we believe something that may not be quite so, or we don’t undersstand the meaning of. So we agonize about it all, untill we mature enough to separate perception from reality and thoughts from reaity. Usually we think that our thoughts equal reality. Allo we need to do is look at everyone else’s view of reality and see how radically different those views are from ours. Then we can calculate if indeed there is a good chance that we are actuallly compl;etly and totally right. We all agree that 2+2=4, but our favorite shade of green might not be the favorite color in the world.

Sometimes we are part of a group and it make us feel that ouir view is right. e say, for example, “I am a a Republocrat” or “…a Democlican.” Then we feel good because there are some others who feel the same way and we hav external verification. But we can outgrow that if we work at it because we want to stop arguing with reality and have peace, the peace that passeth understanding. We can then still ahve pain, I mean we have a body and a mind, but we will no longer suffer.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
Compassion, sympathy, self-sacrifice, courage, self-discipline, charity, hope…all would be meaningless in a world where no one suffered. In such a world, we would be nothing other than smiling biological robots, incapable of meaningful action, incapable of free will.
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Actually, creating people imperfect, reduces, if not eliminates people’s free will. The man born without legs cannot run a Marathon, for example. A person born with a fearful personality, will choose to be afraid instead of brave. A person born stupid will make stupid decisions. In those imperfections, the person really does not have a choice. It is only in the PERFECTIONS where people can choose to do good.

If people were born perfect, they wouldn’t sin and would not offend God and would not suffer. They would know better. They would be ABLE to choose since they have the ABILITY to do good.
As we indisputably have free will,
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Free will, that is significantly degraded or nonexistent due to imperfection. The man without legs has zero free will to run a marathon.
If we want to see less evil, we have to do more good.
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There are limits to this. No matter how much good we can do, we cannot get rid of all suffering and evil. Only God can do this, and he chooses not to do this.
God created us, and gave us this world, as a crucible for proving ourselves for eternity
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Proving ourselves indicates that we are born imperfect and punished for that imperfection. The man without legs is punished for not running a Marathon, for example.

We are punished (temporally) for Adam and Eve’s sin. That is why we suffer. They were imperfect, fell due to their imperfections and we pay the price. No choice in that for us.

I for one would like the free will to be in the Garden of Eden and have the ability to choose not to eat from the tree. I for one wouldn’t even go near that tree. But I never had that choice. My free will is zero there.

Depending on how people see Adam and Eve. Were they stupid for falling for the serpent’s tricks? Were the afraid because the serpent was like 200 feet tall and would eat them alive? Were they naive because they accepted what the serpent told them without thinking? Regardless, they had imperfections (stupidity, naivety, cowardice) and didn’t have the ability to make the right decisions. They had no choice but to fail.

If they were brave, they would have stood firm against the 200 foot serpent. If they were smart they would have not fallen for his tricks. If they were not naive they would have not believed the serpents words. If they didn’t have these imperfections, they would not have fallen. The prototypes God created had defects in them and those defects caused a severe system crash.

And we have no choice either. We are punished (temporally) for their mistake. And we have our own imperfections as well and suffer because of them because we are punished temporally for the results of those imperfections as well.
 
Robertanthony said:
To test if they’re fair-weather friends or if they’re truly committed and loyal
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If God created people to be imperfect (example: disloyal, uncommitted) he’s going to punish them temporally with suffering for the way they are created? That doesn’t sound right…
 
BobCatholic said:
Actually, creating people imperfect, reduces, if not eliminates people’s free will. The man born without legs cannot run a Marathon, for example. A person born with a fearful personality, will choose to be afraid instead of brave. A person born stupid will make stupid decisions. In those imperfections, the person really does not have a choice. It is only in the PERFECTIONS where people can choose to do good.

If people were born perfect, they wouldn’t sin and would not offend God and would not suffer. They would know better. They would be ABLE to choose since they have the ABILITY to do good.
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Bob, I would have to disagree with your apparent definition of free will. Running in a marathon is an athletic event, not a moral choice. If in the most difficult last mile, the athlete chooses to quit rather than endure more pain and discomfort, that would be a moral choice of sorts. The man born without legs may experience the need for that kind of moral choice more often than the gifted, two-legged athlete, whether in a wheelchair marathon or in day-to-day life.

A foreign-born naturalized U.S. citizen cannot become president of the United States. We do not say that he lacks free will because of that.

The person born with a fearful personality, in your example, will not choose to be afraid in every instance. He will always have the freedom to choose, as personality may impel, but it does not compel. This is an essential element of Catholic doctrine. As the saying goes, courage is not the lack of fear, but moving through fear. A shy, small, timid man who chooses to intervene on behalf of an innocent person to protect them against a large, intimidating man has exercised free will and made a moral choice. He actually has displayed a greater instance of courage in his act of free will than a large, powerful man would in choosing to intervene.
There are limits to this. No matter how much good we can do, we cannot get rid of all suffering and evil. Only God can do this, and he chooses not to do this.
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Absolutely. But we should always act, as Jesus commanded us, to alleviate suffering and evil, whether it is possible to eliminate it in this world or not.
Proving ourselves indicates that we are born imperfect and punished for that imperfection. The man without legs is punished for not running a Marathon, for example.
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The man without legs is not being punished for any wrong he committed, and a disabled person might not see himself as “broken.” We all have crosses to bear, and gifts as well. The man without legs may possess a greater sense of humor, or be more intelligent, or wealthier, or have a loving wife and children, where the winner of the marathon may not. Do we say that the marathon champion is being “punished” for possessing none of these things? No, life is not a zero-sum game. We all have burdens and gifts, how we choose to live our lives while working within those parameters is done through acts of free will.
 
If there were no suffering in the world, there would be darned few opportunities for Christians to live what they profess to believe!

We are required to give aid (food, drink, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc) If no one is suffering, to whom will we give this aid?
 
57classic said:
If there were no suffering in the world, there would be darned few opportunities for Christians to live what they profess to believe!

We are required to give aid (food, drink, shelter, clothing, comfort, etc) If no one is suffering, to whom will we give this aid?
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If you do that, to whom do you think you are giving the aid to?
 
Gaber said:
If you do that, to whom do you think you are giving the aid to?
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I’m not sure I understand what you said but a world with no suffering would be close to a perfect world which we cannot have because of original sin. Consequently, bad things happen to good people and bad people in order for other good people to practice what they believe and be witnesses for Christ.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
The person born with a fearful personality, in your example, will not choose to be afraid in every instance. He will always have the freedom to choose, as personality may impel, but it does not compel.
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A fearful person has no choice but to be fearful. That’s why it is called an imperfection - it makes a person imperfect. If he chose not to be fearful, it means he didn’t have the imperfection in the first place.

Just as the person who has broken legs has no choice but to have broken legs. That’s how imperfections work.
The man without legs is not being punished for any wrong he committed, and a disabled person might not see himself as “broken.”
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But we are the people with broken legs (original sin) who are being punished for not being able to run a marathon (we are not living in the Garden of Eden)
 
Think about Job. It was not God who gave the suffering. No, it was the Devil, Lucifer, the god of this World, the Father of Lies, the Lord of the Flies, the Tempter, the Deceiver, Mara.

The sources of suffering are the flesh, the World, the Devil. God redeems us from this suffering.

If we were really ‘good people’- there would be no Fall and no suffering. Insofar as we (collectively) are not ‘good people’, we suffer.
 
BobCatholic said:
Not until we have passed over into eternal life. Until then, our bodies are not redeemed. Romans 8.
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Once again, there is a functional distinction between pain and suffering. Pain is inevitable and is an informational dynamic of living bodies. Suffering is voluntary, that being the thoughts we choose to accept about the pain which don’t conform to reality. So we can have pain without suffering.

And I would be hard pressed to imagine a loving God creating a body incapable of pain. People would be mangling themselves and not realize it until something didn’t work. Might as well get rid of taste, too.

We could say something about the nature of the delayed gratificatin aspect of our faith here, but we will avoid scandal by remaining silent about that.
 
Gaber said:
Once again, there is a functional distinction between pain and suffering. Pain is inevitable and is an informational dynamic of living bodies. Suffering is voluntary, that being the thoughts we choose to accept about the pain which don’t conform to reality. So we can have pain without suffering.

And I would be hard pressed to imagine a loving God creating a body incapable of pain. People would be mangling themselves and not realize it until something didn’t work. Might as well get rid of taste, too.

We could say something about the nature of the delayed gratification aspect of our faith here, but we will avoid scandal by remaining silent about that.
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👍 Good points! Although to remain silent could imply delayed gratification is a source of embarrassment. If we deserve to be happy then it should be broadcast from the hilltops… 🙂
 
I think that life itself by definition brings into existence the very real possibility of suffering for all mankind. Perhaps a reason or two that God allows suffering to happen even to “good people” is that suffering may be something that enables God to develop their patience, to check on their loyalty, or simply to change their life’s direction. And God may also use suffering to give human beings the opportunity to discover just who or what they have placed their faith in - and just how deep they have planted their faith in “who” or “what.” And if they have placed their faith in Jesus, then any human-sized pain or suffering isn’t going to push them away from the Love of God.

Living with pain or suffering for any reason is not an easy thing for people to do; but all mankind’s pain and suffering is but a minor detail when compared with the measureless amount of pain and suffering that the Son of God experienced when He was mocked, scourged, and crucified by mankind for the sins of mankind. And I think that the amount of suffering that God experienced when He witnessed His beloved Son die on the cross for the sins of the world in order that mankind could spend eternity with Him was absolutely measureless (measureless in the sense that God Himself is beyond any human measure).
 
Suffering is one of the greatest blessings we have. If the angels could be jelous of man of anything, it would be to be able to suffer for God.
 
Everyone suffers in someway sometime in life. Nobody is exempt from it. Imagine if nobody suffered. That would mean there would be no such thing as sin. And that’s just not possible. As people sin, things go more and more downhill. Through our suffering in life, we learn many lessons. Also, define a “good person”. Everyone sins, so no one is innocent, right? (not including animals and babies)
 
Darran said:
Suffering is one of the greatest blessings we have. If the angels could be jelous of man of anything, it would be to be able to suffer for God.
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Really? I have always been ver curious and intensly interested in matters religons and mystic since early childhood. None of it had to do with suffering, (or pain, as I distinguish mightily between the two. Suffering is imo unresourceful thinking about pain.) The closest I got to pain in the matter of wishing to seek God, which came, it seems , to me naturally from simply being, might have been what is called “cognative dissonace.”

One kind of cognative dissonance is the difference between one’s experience and an aquired explanation of it. Despite an excellent Catholic school education, I didn’t
completely “buy” many of the things I heard. As things unfolded, I realized that that was a good thing, as when after a particularly stron mystical experience I started to look into the history of the Church, a rather interesting thing emerged for me regarding the nature of Church teaching. As devoted and as missionary like as I might have been at one time, I gained a much greater perspective from what might be called the original definition of the word “catholic.”

Since that time I have felt blessed to grow in practical understanding regarding spirtual matters in a way I never would have dreamed of had I remained stuck in the understanding of my youth. But again, neither I nor many people I know whom I consider to have great spiritual understanding arrived at it primarily because of suffering, even if they went through a stage of that. For them, as it is for me, it was a matter if passionate curiosity and desire to know God. I guess if someone is overly emotional about that and theyu get unresourceful in their thinking and feeling, it could be called suffering.

Having said all that, I would guess that someone who did go through a lot of pain and thought about it in a confused and emotional way might either then seek God or blame and reject God. So in my way of thinking, suffering as a spiritual motivation is a dice game whose name the automatic censor on here would delete. If only there were some such mechanism that would delete all our falsly pious ideas about suffering.
 
In short, suffering is in the world due to original sin that we inherited from Adam.

God does not want us to suffer, but it is allowed in the world. We all have a cross to carry (some crosses are bigger than others, or at least it seems that way), and we must carry it. Jesus embraced his cross, and those that saw this at the time were puzzled. There is suffering in the world as a result of original sin that entered into this world, however no matter how much we are put through these “tests,” we must always be faithful and loyal to God. God does have a plan for the whole world, even if we cannot understand what at the moment. However we must always keep the faith. When Jesus was suffering for us, He accepted it because it was the Father’s will. We must always submit to His will, and our reward will be far greater then we can imagine. If not in this life, then in Heaven.
 
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