Why good people suffer?

[Gaber]

In short, suffering is in the world due to original sin that we inherited from Adam.

OK, that’s good. But now, since you are, I guess, either in, or graduated from university, I wonder if you have considered going beyond the superficial folk interpretation of that story to something more meaningful? I’m thinking of the dynamic suggested by Jesus’ parables: they have at least three elvels of meaning. And on top of that, it says in the Bible that after He spoke in parables to the public, He spoke in fulness to His desciples (name removed by moderator)rivate. And we don’t seem to have any of that, except by conjecture. And as accurate as a “message” or a revelation or “guidance” might be from the Holy Spirit, any “spiritual” conveyence is yet only interprtable in the symbols already in habituated use by the receiver So can we go beyond this initial and first base understanding?

 

[BobCatholic]

Suffering is voluntary, that being the thoughts we choose to accept about the pain which don’t conform to reality. So we can have pain without suffering.

Suffering is not voluntary. If it were, then all those who are suffering must be masochists.

And I would be hard pressed to imagine a loving God creating a body incapable of pain. People would be mangling themselves and not realize it until something didn’t work. Might as well get rid of taste, too.

Then explain this.

A loving God created Adam and Eve imperfect. Depending on how the serpent scene is interpreted, Adam and Eve showed proof of their imperfections.

Was the serpent slick? Then Adam and Eve were stupid (an imperfection) and did something stupid and fell (resulting from the imperfection)

Or maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and very intimidating. Then they both had the imperfection of fear and acted fearful and fell. (again, resulting from the imperfection)

Or maybe the serpent talked plainly and Adam and Eve were naive, believing everything it said as true. And then they acted out of naivete…and fell.

Either which way, God then punished them for falling as a result of their imperfections. And then punishing us temporally for their sins too.

Doesn’t sound loving to me.

Sure, God loves us spiritually. No doubt in my mind there. Jesus’ sacrifice took care of that, showed God’s love there.

But temporally? I have doubts.

 

[BobCatholic]

In short, suffering is in the world due to original sin that we inherited from Adam.

We are being held temporally responsible for the sin from Adam and Eve. I don’t think that’s fair.

 

[A_G]

I understand what you are saying, however we must put our faith in Jesus and the Church that He founded. It may not seem “fair” to you, and at times I find myself saying the same thing, but remember that this world is full of sin. This world has good, but also it has evil lurking around. That being said, you cannot expect a perfect world.

Jesus did die for us, and He is always there for us. Maybe our prayers get answered right away, and maybe at other times they get answered years from now. In either case, we must remain faithful.

 

[A_G]

OK, that’s good. But now, since you are, I guess, either in, or graduated from university, I wonder if you have considered going beyond the superficial folk interpretation of that story to something more meaningful? I’m thinking of the dynamic suggested by Jesus’ parables: they have at least three elvels of meaning. And on top of that, it says in the Bible that after He spoke in parables to the public, He spoke in fulness to His desciples (name removed by moderator)rivate. And we don’t seem to have any of that, except by conjecture. And as accurate as a “message” or a revelation or “guidance” might be from the Holy Spirit, any “spiritual” conveyence is yet only interprtable in the symbols already in habituated use by the receiver So can we go beyond this initial and first base understanding?

I graduated from university (best 4 years of my life). Anyway, my friend, all I know is I’m putting all my faith in Christ. Many things are still mysteries to us, but the point is no matter what life throws at us, we must remain faithful. Nobody suffered more than the Lord for us, no matter what. Just remember the agony at the garden of Gethsemane alone. All the sins were on His shoulders at that moment. Your sins, my sins, that persons sins, etc… He was sweating blood! This is suffering that we cannot imagine, and it was done for us.

Rememer LUKE 22:42 :

“Father, if you are willing, let this cup pass from me; however not my will, but yours be done.”

 

[BobCatholic]

That being said, you cannot expect a perfect world.

I’m not expecting a perfect world. I’m expecting a perfect God and that requires fairness spiritually (yes, there is!) and temporally (where’s the beef?) Punishing us temporally for the sins of Adam and Eve is not fair at all.

What I want is a chance to be in the Garden of Eden with one commandment. I promise, I will NEVER touch that tree!

 

[Gaber]

Suffering is not voluntary. If it were, then all those who are suffering must be masochists.

OK, not directly, then, but certainly by default. If suffering is, as wecan demonstrate to ourselves with a little effort, wrong thinking about or arguing with reality, then it is at least curable ignorance. As one wise man said some time ago: “Suffering is personally induced in order to lend verification to a supposotitious existence.”

Then explain this.

A loving God created Adam and Eve imperfect. Depending on how the serpent scene is interpreted, Adam and Eve showed proof of their imperfections.

OK, first we have to agree on what constiutes “created,” and then we have to se how you buy into the Adam and Eve story, that is what it means to you as spiritually, or in any other way significant, or do you just litterly accept it as the stories in the Bible?

Was the serpent slick? Then Adam and Eve were stupid (an imperfection) and did something stupid and fell (resulting from the imperfection)

Or conversely you can go with what the metaphoric intent of that is, which is rather different than a literal fall. But we don’t want to scandalize anyone on here by sayiing what that really was.

Or maybe the serpent was 50 feet tall and very intimidating. Then they both had the imperfection of fear and acted fearful and fell. (again, resulting from the imperfection)

Or maybe the serpent talked plainly and Adam and Eve were naive, believing everything it said as true. And then they acted out of naivete…and fell.

Maybe you need to get past the serpent as an actual creature? Or what the tree means? Can you think of some other possibilities?

Either which way, God then punished them for falling as a result of their imperfections. And then punishing us temporally for their sins too.

Knd of wholesale, huh?

Doesn’t sound loving to me. [/QUOTEMe neither, but as I said, maybe the meaning you seem to be railing agianst is just the first layer of a rather large onion?

Sure, God loves us spiritually. No doubt in my mind there. Jesus’ sacrifice took care of that, showed God’s love there.

Maybe you ar taking God too personally?

But temporally? I have doubts.

Yes, mee too. But does that mean that you can figure it out in the same terms that the problem is stated? Not likely. Or maybe, uh, there are some other sources of deeper meaning than what you are used to consulting?

This is the problem with exoteric religion turned political by lesser interpreters than Jesus or His kind: There doesn’t seem to be a public support system for the inevitable moment when one is ready for more. It all, unfortunately, seems to be sublimated, as far as my experience goes, into “You must have faith!” Well, God didn’t creat dummies, if we believe that we are in His image and likeness, Questions arise; the skill to answer them other thatn litterally seems to have been lost from the time that it was usefully known that parables had multiple laevels of meaning, as does the entire Bible. I am sorry for your quandry.

 

[BobCatholic]

OK, not directly, then, but certainly by default. If suffering is, as wecan demonstrate to ourselves with a little effort, wrong thinking about or arguing with reality, then it is at least curable ignorance. As one wise man said some time ago: “Suffering is personally induced in order to lend verification to a supposotitious existence.”

If someone is suffering from back pain, what “wrong thinking or arguing with reality” is the cause of that? Someone gets hit by a car and his back hurts for the rest of his life, how can he change his thinking to cure his back pain? The unemployed man who cannot find a job regardless of how hard he looks because we are in a depressed economy, what “wrong thinking” is going to have to change to force an employer to open up a job?

There are things beyond people’s control. That’s the basis of all suffering. If people could choose NOT to, they would choose NOT to suffer.

OK, first we have to agree on what constiutes “created,”

Adam and Eve are not God and are creatures - they were created by God. That’s what constitutes “created” One minute they were not there, the next minute they were.

and then we have to se how you buy into the Adam and Eve story, that is what it means to you as spiritually, or in any other way significant, or do you just litterly accept it as the stories in the Bible?

I have heard many theories of what happened in the Garden of Eden and described three different theories of what happened.

Or conversely you can go with what the metaphoric intent of that is, which is rather different than a literal fall. But we don’t want to scandalize anyone on here by sayiing what that really was.

There was a real and literal Adam and Eve. They fell and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. We are punished temporally for their sins.

Maybe you need to get past the serpent as an actual creature? Or what the tree means? Can you think of some other possibilities?

Please explain.

Knd of wholesale, huh?

Not really.

You will notice the undeniable fact: We are not in the Garden of Eden. Or maybe it is just me and you are in the Garden of Eden and you’re talking to me from it. In which case, please give me driving directions from Chicago

Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. We are not allowed in. Their temporal punishment extends to us even though we did not eat of that tree.

Maybe you ar taking God too personally?

If God wants us to have a personal relationship with him, how can I not take God personally?

Yes, mee too. But does that mean that you can figure it out in the same terms that the problem is stated? Not likely. Or maybe, uh, there are some other sources of deeper meaning than what you are used to consulting?

If I were able to figure it out, I wouldn’t have doubts That’s why I ask.

This is the problem with exoteric religion turned political by lesser interpreters than Jesus or His kind: There doesn’t seem to be a public support system for the inevitable moment when one is ready for more.

One is ready for more what?

It all, unfortunately, seems to be sublimated, as far as my experience goes, into “You must have faith!” Well, God didn’t creat dummies, if we believe that we are in His image and likeness, Questions arise; the skill to answer them other thatn litterally seems to have been lost from the time that it was usefully known that parables had multiple laevels of meaning, as does the entire Bible. I am sorry for your quandry.

God does not want us to “have faith” as if “having faith” is something only we can do - he has to provide it to us first in order for us to have it. “blind faith” as some critics call it, is not real faith - it is just walking blindly. “I walk by faith and not by sight” has been misinterpreted to require “blind faith” but I don’t see it that way. Faith is like this. We have 5 natural senses. Sight, touch, smell, taste, and hearing. Then there is psychic phenomenon (mind reading, premonitions, etc.) and that is the sixth sense. Faith is the seventh sense. It goes beyond all of these other senses and help us see when the other senses fail.

I guess I just don’t have enough faith, it wasn’t given to me. And thus I struggle.

 

[Gaber]

If someone is suffering from back pain, what “wrong thinking or arguing with reality” is the cause of that? Someone gets hit by a car and his back hurts for the rest of his life, how can he change his thinking to cure his back pain? The unemployed man who cannot find a job regardless of how hard he looks because we are in a depressed economy, what “wrong thinking” is going to have to change to force an employer to open up a job?

Please understand I am not denying pain, or circumstance. And I’m not sayingt is easy; it takes training to not add suffering to pain by making upi stories that embeleish it and put it in other thatn the present moment. And in the last case, there may be a way of changing thinking that won’t force, but may encourage an employer tohire someone. In that case wrong thinking would be blaming and externalizing, right thinking might be to get inventive, entrepeneurial, or re-educated about work as distinct from complaining.

There are things beyond people’s control.

Yes, But thier own thinking about those things is directly under their control. Hoow we contol or change thougts resoucefully is a measure of maturity. And it can happen more easily than many like to think.

Adam and Eve are not God and are creatures - they were created by God. That’s what constitutes “created” One minute they were not there, the next minute they were.

If you believe, despite the Church not requiring it, and you ignore whnat might be an actual foundation for that tale, then you wil expereintially live the cnsequences of your belief. Belief, I emphasize, not knowledge in any sense but “book learning.”

I have heard many theories of what happened in the Garden of Eden and described three different theories of what happened.
~~There was a real and literal Adam and Eve. They fell and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. We are punished temporally for their sins.

As I said above, beleive it if you like; make it your story. It is your choice…

Please explain.

Sure. Very simple: Make up three possible alternative meanings for the Garden story.

Not really.

i we take the story at face value, then yes.

You will notice the undeniable fact: We are not in the Garden of Eden. Or maybe it is just me and you are in the Garden of Eden and you’re talking to me from it. In which case, please give me driving directions from Chicago

Sure. Sit in the driver’s seat of your mind. Ask yourself who you arte beyond your habitual thoughts about that. Don’t turn left or right for halucinations. Drive through what might appear as despondence and a feeling of abandonment resulting from the realization that you aren’t whom you thought and that your thoughts don’t describe reality as it is. At the other end you have a wonderful discovery awaiting.

Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. We are not allowed in. Their temporal punishment extends to us even though we did not eat of that tree.

Yes, that is thory, and part of the poison of the “apple” is that you believe the story literally.

If God wants us to have a personal relationship with him, how can I not take God personally?

You assume too much about God. Take the suggested drive and see for yourself if God requires a “personal” relationship. But you can certailnly have one if you wish, and it may serve you very well up to the point it doesn’t

If I were able to figure it out, I wouldn’t have doubts That’s why I ask

The actual resolution of this “delima” isn’t figurable in the sense you wish. but it is available.

One is ready for more what?

Clarity regarding reality.

God does not want us to “have faith” as if “having faith” is something only we can do - he has to provide it to us first in order for us to have it. “blind faith” as some critics call it, is not real faith - it is just walking blindly. “I walk by faith and not by sight” has been misinterpreted to require “blind faith” but I don’t see it that way. Faith is like this. We have 5 natural senses. Sight, touch, smell, taste, and hearing. Then there is psychic phenomenon (mind reading, premonitions, etc.) and that is the sixth sense. Faith is the seventh sense. It goes beyond all of these other senses and help us see when the other senses fail.

I guess I just don’t have enough faith, it wasn’t given to me. And thus I struggle.

A long as you accept that paradim you will have the problem you made up to go with it. As I said, I’m sorry for your dilema.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

At this point the garden story cannot be anything but have the effect of a parable, whether it is a parable or not, as the story does not compel anything more then a third party comprehension

so the argument of whether or not it actually happened is out in my books

because man with a god belief is paranoid typically with acceptance, which i guess theres nothing wrong with because man is born paranoid for acceptance…because though.

he always finds a way to detach as far as possible from error, or non acceptance from god

therefore and i would say obviously

whether it is a parable or true story the interpretation is as many as there are lives lived
in the circumstance of conscience understanding-role, value, order, and the quiet actual selfs potential in measure, Its a story which cam be related to every lifes experience allowing the potential to understand, actual self, known self, social self. 3 in 1…so its a story not to talk about the original sin idea, but a story to talk about every day life opportunity in the garden…hide behind the bush in negativism or get out into the sunshine and have a nice day…interpretations will be inclined to distance the idea from self understood virtue…so the whole thing gets over time pushed on a theme detached from self. it is logical…as well the accent in the concept itself is illogical…simple as that… if theres a god…biggest insult is translation militating against reason…

 

[Sair]

That’s an age-old question. And the Catholic Church has the answer. Good people are allowed to suffer in order to bring about a greater good. We may not see or understand that greater good in this life, but we will in the next life!

What if there isn’t a next life?

What will we understand when our consciousness ceases to exist? Isn’t that a bit late to see the good in our earthly suffering?

The simplest answer to the question of why good people suffer in this world is because there is no such thing as a benevolent deity. What greater good is brought about by the genital mutilation of young girls, for example? By rape and murder and torture? These things can all be justified by irrational religious beliefs. Surely the best course of action is to destroy the dominion of such beliefs, not to convince their victims that their suffering has some kind of ultimate meaning.

 

[serviichristii]

What if there isn’t a next life?

What will we understand when our consciousness ceases to exist? Isn’t that a bit late to see the good in our earthly suffering?

The simplest answer to the question of why good people suffer in this world is because there is no such thing as a benevolent deity. What greater good is brought about by the genital mutilation of young girls, for example? By rape and murder and torture? These things can all be justified by irrational religious beliefs. Surely the best course of action is to destroy the dominion of such beliefs, not to convince their victims that their suffering has some kind of ultimate meaning.

go ahead. fix these problems. Lol.
People think religion is wrong, yet they have achieved nothing.

 

[Gaber]

go ahead. fix these problems. Lol.
People think religion is wrong, yet they have achieved nothing.

Yu can “fix” them for yourself, so to speak. but te secons sentence is semantically null and empty.

 

[BobCatholic]

Very simple: Make up three possible alternative meanings for the Garden story.

I see.

“I reject your reality and substitute my own” kind of thinking

I prefer staying in reality, and not interpreting it to fit my beliefs. My beliefs must fit reality.

 

[Gaber]

I see.

“I reject your reality and substitute my own” kind of thinking

I prefer staying in reality, and not interpreting it to fit my beliefs. My beliefs must fit reality.

Not at all; it is meant as a mind-stretching excercise. There isn’t “your” and “my” reality; only our thoughts about it ar personal. Beliefs are our attempt to model reality beyond our measure, and are not knowledge.

 

[BobCatholic]

Not at all; it is meant as a mind-stretching excercise. There isn’t “your” and “my” reality; only our thoughts about it ar personal. Beliefs are our attempt to model reality beyond our measure, and are not knowledge.

Reality is reality. Otherwise, the psychological industry is just a sham and all insane asylums should be shut down immediately.

 

[Gaber]

Reality is reality. Otherwise, the psychological industry is just a sham and all insane asylums should be shut down immediately.

Actually, since most mental abberations can now be dealt with in short order, say ten of fifteen minutes up to three hours, your suggestion is a good one. But think of all those who would be out of work!

Yes, reality is reality, as is the Allnes of God ALL. But our personal perceptions of that Reality are cobbled together from bits and pieces of local lore until we overcome “the adversary,” or the divider, the mind as we limitedly experince it. So the problem is not Reality, it is what we make up and call “reality.” Yes?

 

[BobCatholic]

Actually, since most mental abberations can now be dealt with in short order, say ten of fifteen minutes up to three hours

If that were true, someone would be making some serious money off of that.

But we don’t have that happening.

 

[atheistgirl]

go ahead. fix these problems. Lol.
People think religion is wrong, yet they have achieved nothing.

Modern medicine and science has done wonders to reduce peoples suffering. Mental health medicine has helped reduce mental anguish and suffering.

The world is full of very clever, very good people who have made it their lifes work to understand and reduce human suffering.

Thankfully they don’t shrug their shoulders and say it is the will of some deity or other that it should be like this.

We no longer run high risks of death giving birth, getting infections or have teeth seen to.

We can cure some cancers, and it won’t be long before the average human age will be 100, and a pretty healthy 100 at that!

How you can say these people have achieved nothing, is beyond me!!!

Sarah x

 

[melekali]

Hello,
If you look at Israel and the lives of all the patriarchs and the prophets and I have seen personally very good people suffer a lot, why does God give so much suffering to good people? Perhaps he is asking them to sacrifice for others, but why the all merciful and all powerful God does not have a method to better distribute the work load amongst all people instead of having to sacrifice a few for all?
Thanks.

So we can “fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ,” as Paul wrote. This is not because there was anything lacking in the redemptive power of his sufferings, but rather it is the plan of God for our sufferings to be redemptive, being united with Christ’s sufferings. Don’t waste perfectly good suffering since you are going to suffer anyway, rather offer it up in union with Christ’s sufferings. God’s ways are not our ways, my friend.