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Katsuobushi
Guest
Hello. I saw your post. So I am going to write a few comments.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Yes, the acceptance of Christianity or Catholicism historically was often tied to whether the persons accepting it would get a benefit or a detriment by associating with Europeans and adopting European culture. In many cases it was beneficial for trade or improving one’s standard of living. However, when there is a strong reaction against European culture, the religious (especially Jesuit) influences were pushed out or eliminated through violence.
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tomarin
Guest
I might gently disagree with this characterization @Lou2U; it’s not underground, it’s just more of a niche thing as Christians only make up something like 2% of the population. I’ve been to mass in Japan and didn’t feel like anything was underground or hidden.
Another aspect of this that hasn’t been mentioned yet is that Japan is an extraordinarily secularized country (and this didn’t happen overnight but in a centuries-long process during the Middle Ages); consequently most Japanese that I’ve known over the years are incredibly nonchalant about religious observances and holding to any fixed theological principles. As an example, take my father-in-law: he’s nominally a Buddhist but I don’t get the impression he visits temples or does meditation often if at all.
Another aspect of this that hasn’t been mentioned yet is that Japan is an extraordinarily secularized country (and this didn’t happen overnight but in a centuries-long process during the Middle Ages); consequently most Japanese that I’ve known over the years are incredibly nonchalant about religious observances and holding to any fixed theological principles. As an example, take my father-in-law: he’s nominally a Buddhist but I don’t get the impression he visits temples or does meditation often if at all.
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Lou2U
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I think underground was the wrong word for me to use, to be honest. I’ve been to Japan too and the impression I had was that although I saw people at temples and shrines, and I saw them pay their respects, actually talking about faith was not so common. I think perhaps it’s just deeply personal, not really underground.
Going to Mass in Japan must have been fascinating!
Going to Mass in Japan must have been fascinating!
I agree totally with this.
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Krisdun
Guest
Never been to Japan myself but get the impression that if there were believers there they would be quite disciplined and try to attend mass and receive sacraments unlike some in the West?
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tomarin
Guest
It was but the language barrier was so great that whatever was being said was pretty opaque to me. (I’ve been studying Japanese for years and expect to be doing so for many years to come before I ‘get anywhere’ with it.)
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Lou2U
Guest
Ha! I’ve tried to learn some Japanese as well, ordering in a restaurant is about as far as I could manage…as long as they didn’t ask me any other questions
(Sorry for being off topic!)
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Krisdun
Guest
Another thing to consider would be whether the mass or certain feasts could be adapted slightly to incorporate more of their culture but I suppose you can only go so far with this…
E.g. make use of cherry blossom trees in spring blossom instead of palms for use on Palm Sunday? Or perhaps design their churches so they are similar in style to their ancient castles/temples? Perhaps use Japanese instruments for music? Use Japanese rice wine (Sake) for Communion?
E.g. make use of cherry blossom trees in spring blossom instead of palms for use on Palm Sunday? Or perhaps design their churches so they are similar in style to their ancient castles/temples? Perhaps use Japanese instruments for music? Use Japanese rice wine (Sake) for Communion?
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tomarin
Guest
I kind of had to start studying it out of necessity because on visits there I realized that nobody speaks English (or very few do) or any other language besides Japanese and I was tired of feeling like a child trying to navigate around. But I think it’s safe to say I’ve been pretty lackadaisical about it. My children can understand it to some degree.
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Katsuobushi
Guest
I became a Catholic 10 years ago. Since then, I myself checked why Japan had such a small Catholic and Christian population. I read several articles on the net, including those written by religious scholars. I talked about it with a very educated Protestant Christian. I visited Catholics Memorial museum in Nagasaki where I made a pilgrimage last year.
So far these are my knowledge and understanding. For accurate facts, please check the appropriate books and other materials. Don’t refer them as a reliable source. Rather please use it as a starting point of your studying.
1.Christianity came too late.
It was already 16th century when St.Francis Xavier visited Japan.
Japan already had hundred years of history imbued with Buddhism and Shintoism in all aspects of life.
While Western nations successfully integrated Christianity in politics and even in military,
Japanese warlords only could allow it as an observer or forbid it.
Perhaps things would have been different if Christianity was there before establishment of samurai rule.
2.Western ambition and arrogance.
A Japanese translator once overheard in Japanese ocean port foreign people’s conversation about colonial expansion into Japan and bringing Christianity together. It was Spanish plot to control the population through religion first and send armies and conquer. The translator took this message back to the Shogun (Hideyoshi) who took it seriously. In this Shogunate period, a Spanish soldier who landed on Japan was heard saying, our nation can conquer a such a small island with little effort, with derision (something like this), which was recorded and communicated to Shogun who was infuriated by the foreigner’s arrogance. Hideyoshi was also enraged that Japanese men and women were sold to foreign ships stationed in Japanese water. He perceived this trade was related to Christian preaching activity. So he ordered complete shutdown of Christian preaching in Japan.
3.Christianity’s intolerance toward other religions
Hideyoshi wasn’t so critical about Christianity from the beginning. Added to the reasons above was Christianity’s intolerance toward Buddhism and Shintoism. He grew dislike of Christianity.
4.Bible teaches that Lord Jesus is the supreme authority over the mankind
After Hideyoshi Shogunate was overthrown and new Tokugawa Shogunate was established, Tokugawa blood line also persecuted Christians harshly. Tokugawa Shogunate established the first sole sovereign rule over the entire Japan island and saw themselves as the absolute authority. They didn’t like Christianity that taught Lord Jesus was above them and the followers had to obey Lord Jesus first. There was a one big military revolt by Christians in southern Japan which very much astonished them.
5.Ocean protected Japan island from foreign invasions
When people are of homogeneous race and there is no foreign invasion, they can live in peace without belief in Absolute Existence (or any religion). Generally, people tend to look for divine help in time of danger.
(continued below)
So far these are my knowledge and understanding. For accurate facts, please check the appropriate books and other materials. Don’t refer them as a reliable source. Rather please use it as a starting point of your studying.
1.Christianity came too late.
It was already 16th century when St.Francis Xavier visited Japan.
Japan already had hundred years of history imbued with Buddhism and Shintoism in all aspects of life.
While Western nations successfully integrated Christianity in politics and even in military,
Japanese warlords only could allow it as an observer or forbid it.
Perhaps things would have been different if Christianity was there before establishment of samurai rule.
2.Western ambition and arrogance.
A Japanese translator once overheard in Japanese ocean port foreign people’s conversation about colonial expansion into Japan and bringing Christianity together. It was Spanish plot to control the population through religion first and send armies and conquer. The translator took this message back to the Shogun (Hideyoshi) who took it seriously. In this Shogunate period, a Spanish soldier who landed on Japan was heard saying, our nation can conquer a such a small island with little effort, with derision (something like this), which was recorded and communicated to Shogun who was infuriated by the foreigner’s arrogance. Hideyoshi was also enraged that Japanese men and women were sold to foreign ships stationed in Japanese water. He perceived this trade was related to Christian preaching activity. So he ordered complete shutdown of Christian preaching in Japan.
3.Christianity’s intolerance toward other religions
Hideyoshi wasn’t so critical about Christianity from the beginning. Added to the reasons above was Christianity’s intolerance toward Buddhism and Shintoism. He grew dislike of Christianity.
4.Bible teaches that Lord Jesus is the supreme authority over the mankind
After Hideyoshi Shogunate was overthrown and new Tokugawa Shogunate was established, Tokugawa blood line also persecuted Christians harshly. Tokugawa Shogunate established the first sole sovereign rule over the entire Japan island and saw themselves as the absolute authority. They didn’t like Christianity that taught Lord Jesus was above them and the followers had to obey Lord Jesus first. There was a one big military revolt by Christians in southern Japan which very much astonished them.
5.Ocean protected Japan island from foreign invasions
When people are of homogeneous race and there is no foreign invasion, they can live in peace without belief in Absolute Existence (or any religion). Generally, people tend to look for divine help in time of danger.
(continued below)
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Katsuobushi
Guest
6.Americans soon started another war.
WWII devastated Japan and people looked at Christianity of Americans as source of new hope.
So I heard there was surge in conversion. But Korean War stopped it. That war disillusioned many people about Christianity.
7.I saw a brief introduction of paid content on the net that theorized why GHQ didn’t or failed to promote Christianity after WWII when they had all authority over the nation for a period of 5 years. I didn’t purchase the content. Some day, I will check into this as well.
WWII devastated Japan and people looked at Christianity of Americans as source of new hope.
So I heard there was surge in conversion. But Korean War stopped it. That war disillusioned many people about Christianity.
7.I saw a brief introduction of paid content on the net that theorized why GHQ didn’t or failed to promote Christianity after WWII when they had all authority over the nation for a period of 5 years. I didn’t purchase the content. Some day, I will check into this as well.
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Krisdun
Guest
On point 1. Christianity did not arrive in Korea till quite late but South Koreans seemed to have been more receptive of the Christian/Catholic faith. On all other points I would agree they were probably factors.
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Thrstypirate
Guest
Fun fact: tempura was developed as a Lenten food in Japan by Portuguese Catholic missionaries, and is a Japanese version of the word for temperance.
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phil19034
Guest
In regards to MODERN Japan, it’s also important to note that Japan is one of the countries with the highest percentage of atheists in the world.
Well, @Katsuobushi’s other points more or less answer your question.
I’ll add to that that:
I’ll add to that that:
- Catholicism was not first imported by strangers in Korea, but brought back by Koreans who had come into contact with Matteo Ricci’s Jesuit mission in Beijing;
- Japanese occupation in Korea was a big reason why Koreans turned to the “Western way” when looking for help in their desire for freedom.
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Krisdun
Guest
Sadly Japan also has a relatively high suicide rate particularly among young men but this could be for many reasons not just lack of a faith.
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Katsuobushi
Guest
I still wonder why USA gov’t didn’t remove Nagasaki from the A-bomb target list. USA annihilated the historically first, most significant, and most populated Christian city in Japan. It wiped out 1/3 of Catholic population instantly in Nagasaki city. USA gov’t removed Kyoto from the target list because Kyoto had rich historical tradition. But so was Nagasaki. I often wonder why USA gov’t had to kill in the most brutal way the “brothers and sisters” that their citizens would usually call. The A-bomb detonated right above Urakami Tenshudo (Church) during Mass. The building partly remained and the Nagasaki citizens after the war strongly urged the city to make a peace memorial out of it. But the city somehow went on to demolish it and rebuild it. A journalist investigated and couldn’t get to the bottom of it. But he guessed it must be a very strong pressure from USA gov’t not to preserve it as a memorial. There is lots of shady stuff around Nagasaki bombing.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
What we in the West don’t know much about is the degree to which Hideoshi’s measures were intended to serve, and did serve, as “innoculation” against Christianity. It may be observed, for example, that Shinto began to gain ascendancy over Buddhism at around that same time, seeing what might have been its high water mark under Meiji. I’m not saying that had anything to do with resistance to Christianity, but cultural changes accompanying that new emphasis on Shinto might have had other effects as well.
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Krisdun
Guest
Good points - perhaps if Japanese priests introduced the faith to their own people rather than ‘forceful’ or ‘intimidating’ foreigners it may have developed differently. The way priests preach the faith or act can make a big difference on how people respond (we can probably see evidence of this in our own dioceses).
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Krisdun
Guest
I was wondering the same thing why target a city which probably had the highest proportion of Christians?
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