Why has the West lost Christ?

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MartyrForJesus said:
So, rampant consumerism is somehow contributing to the welfare of society is it?
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Getting enough food for people is a good thing. Advancing so that we have more leisure time so we don’t work night and day just to survive is a good thing, don’t you think?
 
mjakemccoy said:
Great question. I’d make the case that it started with a steady decline in the Reformation with the Separation of Church & State. Reformers didn’t want the pope interferring with kings, the kings were “liberated” from the church. They began to start their own churches. In the enlightenment commoners rebelled against the kings and started founding all their own churches. This is where the notion of freedom of religion/conscience came about. The Feudal System dominated the west until the Reformation. Capitalism gained acceptance in the west following the reformation, and Communism gained acceptance in the east. Christian empires fell to the will of the people. The Church was removed from government, philosophy, science, etc. Without the “pillar of truth” involved in our civilizations doors were opened for the likes of Darwin and Marx. The old regimes were certainly not perfect, there were corruptions. However I’ve read income taxes were never higher than 10%. Divorce, Abortion, and homosexuality were not permitted in these civilizations.

Our Lord told us we could not serve two masters, but we continually fight for freedom in the west. What freedom are we fighting for? Is it freedom to proclaim the Gospel, or is it freedom from the Gospel? History is a vivid picture. One rebellion has led to another. Christ also told us a “house divided cannot stand”. Today there are roughly 40,000 Protestant denominations with little continuity in doctrine. Division in Christianity is becoming a grave matter. It should be no surprise that the divisions in the west have not aided the propogation of the Gospel. I do not speak to condemn anyone, but I’m seeking unity among all Christians. This unity can only be reached in the church Christ himself started 2,000 years ago. I speak of the Catholic Church, the church that every Protestant denomination came from. Our doors are always opened. Please pray for unity.
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This is the best answer yet. It makes the most sense. Without the Church ruling over the world, of course there is chaos. Give people an inch, they’ll take a mile, although it seems that people will take a megaparsec when given an angstrom.

We need to restore the Church to its rightful place.
 
mjakemccoy said:
Great question. I’d make the case that it started with a steady decline in the Reformation with the Separation of Church & State. Reformers didn’t want the pope interferring with kings, the kings were “liberated” from the church. They began to start their own churches. In the enlightenment commoners rebelled against the kings and started founding all their own churches. This is where the notion of freedom of religion/conscience came about. The Feudal System dominated the west until the Reformation. Capitalism gained acceptance in the west following the reformation, and Communism gained acceptance in the east. Christian empires fell to the will of the people. The Church was removed from government, philosophy, science, etc. Without the “pillar of truth” involved in our civilizations doors were opened for the likes of Darwin and Marx. The old regimes were certainly not perfect, there were corruptions. However I’ve read income taxes were never higher than 10%. Divorce, Abortion, and homosexuality were not permitted in these civilizations.

Our Lord told us we could not serve two masters, but we continually fight for freedom in the west. What freedom are we fighting for? Is it freedom to proclaim the Gospel, or is it freedom from the Gospel? History is a vivid picture. One rebellion has led to another. Christ also told us a “house divided cannot stand”. Today there are roughly 40,000 Protestant denominations with little continuity in doctrine. Division in Christianity is becoming a grave matter. It should be no surprise that the divisions in the west have not aided the propogation of the Gospel. I do not speak to condemn anyone, but I’m seeking unity among all Christians. This unity can only be reached in the church Christ himself started 2,000 years ago. I speak of the Catholic Church, the church that every Protestant denomination came from. Our doors are always opened. Please pray for unity.
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Your prayer for unity should be correlated with reality. There are those on the threads that will challenge you on the 40,000 denominations. I believe that a way of looking at these premutations is streams of thought.

At the inception of division you can identify Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian/Reformed, Anabaptist(menonite/Amish) and Baptist. The Anabatptist and Baptist do not see themselves as Protestant…having been persecuted by Protestants of varying stripes for failure to accept infant Baptism as is true for the Anabaptists.

As I see there are streams of thought and it appears that the Anglicans have given birth to the most pronounced stream of thought…Anglican gave rise to Methodist, gave rise to holiness movement, gave rise to AOG/Pentacostal/Church of Nazarene, etc…

You may want to visit the thread concerning “Trent and Reconcilliation with the Reformed”…it is my opinion with the exception of the Anglican Community that on occasion unites in groups that unity will be by individuals and not communities…👍
 
vsedriver said:
Wealth. It has become a god to western society. The pursuit of wealth makes it hard to pursue Christ.
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Agreed. We are worshiping work and have abandoned the Church. There is no more time to go to Church. We want to make money so we can have all we want in this life. We want to feel important.
 
smndtupidisaftr said:
Getting enough food for people is a good thing. Advancing so that we have more leisure time so we don’t work night and day just to survive is a good thing, don’t you think?
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Please don’t misrepresent my argument. What you listed is basic human welfare. I said rampant consumerism.
 
I don’t have time at the moment to respond to all the ignorance in this thread but I will start with a simple statement.

Every generation since the dawn of man thought that the next generation is less moral, more confused, and somehow less knowledgeable. Each of those claims is false.

As far as science, it is most simply reduced to sensing the world and using logic to understand what we are sensing. Science as commonly referred to is the utilization of the scientific method. The scientific method does not apply to justice because justice is not something that can be reduced to a repeatable hypothesis in any direct sense. I am sure if you have anything to say here that makes sense you can elaborate.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
What’s wrong with working hard and contributing to society :confused:?
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Working hard for wage slavery is not contributing to society. It is contributing to the false idea that government solves issues and is a net benefit. Involuntary taxation is theft. Involuntary providing of services is nonsense. Will elaborate later…

Please don’t apply your drone worker ideology to ideas of the good of society, I will defeat it to your last point. 👍
 
Seamus_L said:
It’s a rather odd comment from Dostoyevsky. Certainly there were places in the West where people were becoming increasingly anti-clerical in his time, but it was occuring in his own country as well. I imagine that someone in the US, Ireland, Portugal in the 1930’s, etc could have just as easily asked “Why has the East lost Christ” ?
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From reading Dostoevsky I am sure that he was including Russia in the West in this statement. He himself had been a nihilist and anarchist, and knew the darkest aspects of Modernism.

19th century Russia was, afterall, hugely influenced by French and German culture and philosophy, so even though Eastern, from a Western perspective, Russia had/has valid claims to share “Western” culture as well.

It is amazing how old “Modernism” is. Not nearly as fresh and exciting as liberal thinkers might have us believe.
 
I don’t think the West has lost Christ. The love of Our Lord has been and will always continue to be present.

In my opinion, the West has attempted to forget about Christ for in His love and compassion lies the antithesis of greed, immorality and injustice.

On that same note, to love Christ is a personal decision that must be made with conviction that shakes the soul and wakens the spirit. That being said, although a secular society bereft of religious morality is truly sad, true believers are born from the dust. Religion is no longer an issue of the status quo, it requires commitment and the constant vigilance.

So all in all, while I lament a society that promotes greed and hatred, I cannot judge those who may or may not subscribe to that lifestyle. Rather, I can only pray that the Lord will enlighten me so that perhaps in the smallest way I can be a part of the example that Christ set for us.
 
CopticChristian said:
Your prayer for unity should be correlated with reality.

You may want to visit the thread concerning “Trent and Reconcilliation with the Reformed”…it is my opinion with the exception of the Anglican Community that on occasion unites in groups that unity will be by individuals and not communities…👍
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Thank you for your response it was worth pondering. Reality is a difficult word in this age. What was real/true 50 years ago is not today, or is it? This is what it all boils down to, what is real? If Christ is the risen Lord, 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, and if prayer works, I’m talking about moving mountains, that’s reality.

I used to absolutely believe in your comment on individuals. This notion of microevangelization is key to everything. But we must also not lose sight of the macroevangelization. Historical precedence in reference:
Justin Martyr and several early martyrs appealed directly to the Senate and the Emperor.
Augustine brought the Tertullians back in communion with Rome.
325 Emperor Constantine called for the Council of Nicea to deal with the Arian heresy (essentially to bring about unity, this was the first Ecumenical Council and an important precedence).
380 Christianity became the state religion in Rome under Theodosius.
8th century St. Boniface (Evangelizer of Germany) was thrown out of Germany. After Charles Martel defeated Radbod, Boniface was able to return and evangelized Germany.
1531 Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to Juan Diego and roughly 8 million natives converted in the next 7 years.

This is macroevangelization. Now in these types of mass conversions certainly steps would have to be made to meet peoples spiritual needs on a 1 to 1 basis; microevangelization. But I think this is important history for Catholics to remember. Protestantism’s diversity offers a new set of challenges. Just as the Arians did in their time. But we can see that innovations were needed as an Emperor called for a new kind of council, an Ecumenical Council. Perhaps this could be done again with the right political leaders, or perhaps a new innovation will be needed. Multiple subcouncils to work towards a big council down the road, which may take decades. The cost of division is high, and we all know it. Protestants and Catholics alike can’t claim victory over the reformation. It was a stunning success for atheists and muslims however. But I do hold to hope for unification, this nation was founded as a safe haven following the uprisings of the Reformation. It was founded as a “melting pot”. History would tell me that that sounds like a great opportunity for Christianity to reunite. But what we melt into is entirely up to us. Another interesting tidbit, Blessed Theresa of Calcutta offered her 3rd mystery of the rosary for unity in the Church in this country. She’s still waiting on 1 more miracle. Please pray for unity.
 
MartyrForJesus said:
Please don’t misrepresent my argument. What you listed is basic human welfare. I said rampant consumerism.
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But you twisted the argument with the response of rampant consumerism. That’s not what he was talking about. Advancing our economy is a good thing.
 
mathematoons said:
I just read a quote from Dostoevsky saying, “The West has lost Christ. For that reason alone, it is dying.” He wrote that in the 19th century!

I agree with this assessment. Things have only gotten much worse. My question is, why do you think the West has lost Christ?
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Secularism.
 
ExplosiveOxygen said:
Working hard for wage slavery is not contributing to society. It is contributing to the false idea that government solves issues and is a net benefit. Involuntary taxation is theft. Involuntary providing of services is nonsense. Will elaborate later…

Please don’t apply your drone worker ideology to ideas of the good of society, I will defeat it to your last point. 👍
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Wage slavery? I bet that real slaves would have loved wages and the right to quit.

So much hate for capitalism, I don’t get it. It’s basically just freedom in the economic sphere. The alternative would be control. Are we going to say that we need more force to bring people back to Christ? I don’t see the argument for that.
 
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