Why hast thou forsaken me ?

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Prince_Hal

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When Christ is on the Cross, he cries out to the Father:

“Why has thou forsaken me ?”

Can you give me any pointers as to what He means please ?

The “faith” tradition that I come from suggests that the Father withdrew so that all glory could be taken by the Son - but this does not seem to me to be consistent with Catholic theology.

A protestant view that I heard was that at that moment Christ took on all sin and therefore could not be in the presence of the Father with sin. I am not sure that either is a satisfactory answer.

Can anyone assist to me to understand from a Catholic perspective.

Many thanks indeed and God Bless,

Hal.
 
Prince_Hal said:
When Christ is on the Cross, he cries out to the Father:

“Why has thou forsaken me ?”

Can you give me any pointers as to what He means please ?

The “faith” tradition that I come from suggests that the Father withdrew so that all glory could be taken by the Son - but this does not seem to me to be consistent with Catholic theology.

A protestant view that I heard was that at that moment Christ took on all sin and therefore could not be in the presence of the Father with sin. I am not sure that either is a satisfactory answer.

Can anyone assist to me to understand from a Catholic perspective.

Many thanks indeed and God Bless,

Hal.
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Jesus is quoting Psalm 22, a psalm of lament that expresses the lament of the present, contrasted against God’s past mercy. Also in the psalm, the psalmist is surrounded by his enemies and then invites praise to the Lord. (the above is drawn from a commentary included in the New American Bible).

From (Nelson’s) *A New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture *(1969):
Jesus’ cry is not intended primarily to give an insight into his feelings, on which the evangelists are duly reticent; it is his own interpretation to us of the significance of his death . . . Some early Fathers interpreted the cry as one of dereliction, but it must be seen in its context: it begins Ps 22 (21) of which the theme (though it mentions the jeers of the psalmist’s persecutors) is confident trust in God’s protection during affliction and certainty of eventual deliverance - the them of the prophecies of the suffering servant of the Lord, which figures so prominently in Jesus’ thought on his passion and death. Most significant of all, the last part of the Ps tells how he who is suffering will bring all nations to acknowledge the sovereignty of God.
(p. 983)
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It seems fairly consistent that even though He cried out only a single line of the psalm, those that heard it would recognize it as such and take comfort in it.
 
Prince_Hal said:
A protestant view that I heard was that at that moment Christ took on all sin and therefore could not be in the presence of the Father with sin. I am not sure that either is a satisfactory answer.
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Isn’t God Three Persons in One? If so, this is an impossibility.

Instead, as the others have said, read Psalm 22 and you’ll understand that Jesus was strengthening the resolve of His followers.
 
As St Paul says in Hebrew 2 verses 6-14
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the Son of man, that you care for him?
You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
And again, “I will put my trust in him.”And again,“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

And thus, in this terrible time, He suffered the temptations that we do in the depths of extreme suffering. "**For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin **(Hebrews 4:15).
 
Trishie said:
As St Paul says in Hebrew 2 verses 6-14
“What is man, that you are mindful of him,
or the Son of man, that you care for him?
You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
putting everything in subjection under his feet.”

Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying,
“I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”
And again, “I will put my trust in him.”And again,“Behold, I and the children God has given me.”

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

And thus, in this terrible time, He suffered the temptations that we do in the depths of extreme suffering. "**For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin **(Hebrews 4:15).
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While this is a nice reflection on why Christ died, it doesn’t really seem to address the OP’s topic on why He cried out “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
 
These words are meant to be reminders of what Jesus has done for us, and as hope for our future.

Jesus, in His moment of Agony took on the pain and grief of the separation from God that results when we humans commit grave sins with full knowledge and consent.

Jesus therefore not only saved us and reconciled us with His Father by His Death and Ressurection, He also experienced the consequences of sins so that He would be able to have complete empathy with sinners.

In others words, in His Love, Jesus knows how we feel.
 
jkarp said:
While this is a nice reflection on why Christ died, it doesn’t really seem to address the OP’s topic on why He cried out “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
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Let me give you a test. Next time you’re in a crowded elevator, sing the first line of “American Pie” and see what happens.

That’s what Jesus was doing when he said the first line of Psalm 22.

BTW, please don’t hate me if that song rattles around in your head for the rest of the evening! 😉
 
NotWorthy said:
Let me give you a test. Next time you’re in a crowded elevator, sing the first line of “American Pie” and see what happens.

That’s what Jesus was doing when he said the first line of Psalm 22.

BTW, please don’t hate me if that song rattles around in your head for the rest of the evening! 😉
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Thanks a lot!
Now it’s rattling around in MY head!

It cold have been worse - it could have been “Whip It” by Devo . . .
 
NotWorthy said:
Let me give you a test. Next time you’re in a crowded elevator, sing the first line of “American Pie” and see what happens.

That’s what Jesus was doing when he said the first line of Psalm 22.

BTW, please don’t hate me if that song rattles around in your head for the rest of the evening! 😉
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That is the exact point I made in my first post. And don’t worry about it, I like the song 😛
 
Well, he is not the anointed one of the jews. they still think this today.
yhvh would not forsake the promised king. he wasn’t supposed to die. or was he?
A suicidal jew…the king of israel…this is apostasy in judaism.
Moreover, who are gentiles to tell jews about how they are wrong about their king.
I’m not a jew. but i’ve always found this to be interesting.
It’s like hearing an eskimo tell me that obama is your wrong president, although this has nothing to do with the eskimo. he just wants to tell me this. and if i’m wrong. the eskimo will damn me to gehanna.
But, i could be wrong.
I’m happy to just BE a creature from the Creator. no religion. no fables. no myths. just life. just Spirit. The eternal accepts good deeds, justice, and wholy living.
If i were god, i am not, i would accept just a creature who earnestly seeks me. think about it. i would not say. no you must believe in a person you have never met that raised from the dead 2000 years ago that’s coming in the sky to judge you by his standard. although some of you, my creatures, have never heard of this person even to 100,000 B.C to 2080 A.D. i will still hold you accountable. Think about it. Think. Think. What is going on here??--------has the eternal forsaken his creatures to those that believe in a “probable” forsaken creature— joshua. Am i abandoned by the love of the eternal because i will not accept a suicidal jew. Please, catholics, i invite respect not hostility, understanding, not judgment. Think. Think. i want to hear your response. your beliefs DO EFFECT the world. Examine them with the critical mind the eternal gave you and blessed you. Thank you eternal lord for my mind. Thank you. Amin.
 
jmorris said:
Well, he is not the anointed one of the jews. they still think this today.
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Not the millions of Jews who converted. Who do you believe, the ones that converted or the ones that didn’t. Its understood that Israel was anxiously anticipating the Messiah during this time. It seems like the ones that didn’t convert just simply missed the bus.
jmorris said:
yhvh would not forsake the promised king. he wasn’t supposed to die. or was he?
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Read Isaiah 52-53 one more time.
jmorris said:
A suicidal jew…the king of israel…this is apostasy in judaism.
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I wasn’t aware Jesus commited suicide. Where does it say that?
jmorris said:
Moreover, who are gentiles to tell jews about how they are wrong about their king.
I’m not a jew. but i’ve always found this to be interesting.
It’s like hearing an eskimo tell me that obama is your wrong president, although this has nothing to do with the eskimo. he just wants to tell me this. and if i’m wrong. the eskimo will damn me to gehanna.
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The early Church was made up of Jews who converted. They evangelized Gentiles. Your point makes absolutely no sense. For example, are you saying that the US shouldn’t help out with hunger, AIDS, or other problems in Africa simply because they aren’t Africans?
jmorris said:
But, i could be wrong.
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This, in my opinion, is the first correct statement you’ve made. 😉
jmorris said:
I’m happy to just BE a creature from the Creator. no religion. no fables. no myths. just life. just Spirit. The eternal accepts good deeds, justice, and wholy living.
If i were god, i am not, i would accept just a creature who earnestly seeks me. think about it. i would not say. no you must believe in a person you have never met that raised from the dead 2000 years ago that’s coming in the sky to judge you by his standard. although some of you, my creatures, have never heard of this person even to 100,000 B.C to 2080 A.D. i will still hold you accountable. Think about it. Think. Think. What is going on here??--------has the eternal forsaken his creatures to those that believe in a “probable” forsaken creature— joshua. Am i abandoned by the love of the eternal because i will not accept a suicidal jew. Please, catholics, i invite respect not hostility, understanding, not judgment. Think. Think. i want to hear your response. your beliefs DO EFFECT the world. Examine them with the critical mind the eternal gave you and blessed you. Thank you eternal lord for my mind. Thank you. Amin.
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My friend, your meandering rambles simply mean that you’ve basically created your own religion with your own rules with you as the Pope.

That’s your business. Just don’t chastise me for believing in this Messiah that is Jesus.
 
Prince_Hal said:
When Christ is on the Cross, he cries out to the Father:

“Why has thou forsaken me ?”

Can you give me any pointers as to what He means please ?

The “faith” tradition that I come from suggests that the Father withdrew so that all glory could be taken by the Son - but this does not seem to me to be consistent with Catholic theology.

A protestant view that I heard was that at that moment Christ took on all sin and therefore could not be in the presence of the Father with sin. I am not sure that either is a satisfactory answer.

Can anyone assist to me to understand from a Catholic perspective.

Many thanks indeed and God Bless,

Hal.
Click to expand...
FIRST

Jesus is expressing the highest love for God by saying :

“Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani” - “My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?”

This highest love of God is known in bridal mysticism when a lover is separated.

The lover cannot stand a single moment separated from the other.

You should read St. Teresa the Little Flower of Jesus. She could not stand to breath a single breath in separation of her Beloved Lord.

Do we love God so much that we desire ONLY to be with Him, fully united, right NOW??? OR … do we say … Yes Lord, but I am not ready to go to heaven just yet, … I’ve got a few rounds of golf to play, or a game to attend, or I have a date tonight. etc.

So, on the side of the Divine Jesus, He is expressing perfect Love of God.

SECOND

He is simultaneously expressing, as mentioned in previous posts, the calamity of sin which is bewildered anxiety crying from the depths of separation from God. The Lord can simultaneously look there into the depths of depravity of the human heart, in fact, the void in all hearts, past, present, and future, and see even the last lonely soul wandering adrift.

THIRD

Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani

It should be noted that this saying is a Mystery. So much so, that the Gospel author thought it important to offer a translation of the saying.

It is unclear how it is actually translated as “My God My God, why has thou forsaken Me” by modern scholarship of language and biblical writings.

What is certain about this saying is the Lord’s name Eloi Eloi and this is the only time Jesus doesn’t call God “Abba” Father. In this sense certainly Jesus is praying a prayer or hymn.
 
codebilly said:
FIRST

Jesus is expressing the highest love for God by saying :

“Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani” - “My God My God why hast thou forsaken me?”
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I’m not sure if it’s important, but it’s: “Eli” not “Eloi” - this seemed to be the cause of confusion among some of those who were present; they thought he was crying out for Elijah. Also, the spelling is “lema” not “lama”. He cried out, "Eli, Eli lema sabachthani?"
codebilly said:
THIRD

Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani

It should be noted that this saying is a Mystery. So much so, that the Gospel author thought it important to offer a translation of the saying.

It is unclear how it is actually translated as “My God My God, why has thou forsaken Me” by modern scholarship of language and biblical writings.

What is certain about this saying is the Lord’s name Eloi Eloi and this is the only time Jesus doesn’t call God “Abba” Father. In this sense certainly Jesus is praying a prayer or hymn.
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I get the impression that the Gospel author(s) offer a translation of what Christ said because there was confusion among those present.
 
jkarp said:
I get the impression that the Gospel author(s) offer a translation of what Christ said because there was confusion among those present.
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Well, Mark certainly did, especially because his Roman audience didn’t speak Aramaic.

The NAB puts it this way, In Mark the verse is cited entirely in Aramaic, which Matthew partially retains but changes the invocation of God to the Hebrew Eli, possibly because that is more easily related to the statement of the following verse about Jesus’ calling for Elijah.
 
Prince_Hal said:
When Christ is on the Cross, he cries out to the Father:

“Why has thou forsaken me ?”

Can you give me any pointers as to what He means please ?
Click to expand...
Jesus was showing us an example of what to do in moments of great trouble: SING A SONG OF PRAYER…
 
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