Why hast thou forsaken me?

[MindNight]

Why did Jesus (second person of the trinity) say the line (written in the title) when speaking to the father (first person of Tr.)? If both the father and son are ONE god, why would Jesus have to talk to himself when on the cross?

 

[TimothyH]

The Trinity is one God but three distinct persons.

Jesus quoted Psalm 22 which is often called “The Prayer of an Innocent Person.”

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why so far from my call for help,
from my cries of anguish?
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer;
by night, but I have no relief
(Pslam 22:2-3)

The Jews who stood by would have recognized his words as coming from the Psalm. They would have also recognized that it was a Psalm of deliverance, of victory, and above all, a Psalm of trust.

**For he has not spurned or disdained
the misery of this poor wretch,
Did not turn away from me,
but heard me when I cried out.

All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations
will bow low before him

And I will live for the LORD;
my descendants will serve you**
(Psalm 22:25,28,31)*

God the Son was praying Psalm 22 to God the Father as he died. It is worth reading in that light.

-Tim-

 

[chero23]

The Trinity is one God but three distinct persons.

Jesus quoted Psalm 22 which is often called “The Prayer of an Innocent Person.”

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
Why so far from my call for help,
from my cries of anguish?
My God, I call by day, but you do not answer;
by night, but I have no relief
(Pslam 22:2-3)

The Jews who stood by would have recognized his words as coming from the Psalm. They would have also recognized that it was a Psalm of deliverance, of victory, and above all, a Psalm of trust.

**For he has not spurned or disdained
the misery of this poor wretch,
Did not turn away from me,
but heard me when I cried out.

All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD;
All the families of nations
will bow low before him

And I will live for the LORD;
my descendants will serve you***
(Psalm 22:25,28,31)

God the Son was praying Psalm 22 to God the Father as he died. It is worth reading in that light.

-Tim-

Yes what Jesus was doing was quoting Psalm 22, if you look at the end God is victorious.

 

[bzkoss236]

Why did Jesus (second person of the trinity) say the line (written in the title) when speaking to the father (first person of Tr.)? If both the father and son are ONE god, why would Jesus have to talk to himself when on the cross?

Part one was nicely answered above, but as to the second part, while the Father and the Son are both the ONE God, they are TWO distinct persons. The Holy Spirit is also a distinct person within the ONE God.

This is the mystery of the Trinity: 3 distinct persons in 1 God.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Part one was nicely answered above, but as to the second part, while the Father and the Son are both the ONE God, they are TWO distinct persons. The Holy Spirit is also a distinct person within the ONE God.

This is the mystery of the Trinity: 3 distinct persons in 1 God.

To piggyback off of this, when Jesus is praying to the Father TWO distinct persons are involved, i.e. Jesus is not praying to Himself, He is praying to a distinct person - the Father. They are one in ESSENCE, but distinct in PERSON. And as persons (not essences) speak to one another, Jesus is not speaking to Himself.

 

[MindNight]

Part one was nicely answered above, but as to the second part, while the Father and the Son are both the ONE God, they are TWO distinct persons. The Holy Spirit is also a distinct person within the ONE God.

This is the mystery of the Trinity: 3 distinct persons in 1 God.

So according to this, this would mean that Jesus and the father (and the holy spirit) have three different conciousness. And if they have don’t have 3 different conciousness, then it would not make sense for Jesus to talk to his father (since their minds are one, or are they?). And if they do have 3 different conciousness, then how can they be one being??? I’m extremely puzzled here…

 

[kmcarl56]

We won’t have an answer to this one until we are standing before God. Only then will we have the answers to the questions that we seek.

 

[PietroPaolo]

So according to this, this would mean that Jesus and the father (and the holy spirit) have three different conciousness. And if they have don’t have 3 different conciousness, then it would not make sense for Jesus to talk to his father (since their minds are one, or are they?). And if they do have 3 different conciousness, then how can they be one being??? I’m extremely puzzled here…

Of course you are extremely puzzled, you are delving into the deepest mystery of the Faith. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are ONE in ESSENCE, ONE in BEING, ONE in SUBSTANCE - that is they are ONE GOD. But they are THREE Separate Persons.The Father, for example, wasn’t crucified.

To further complicate matters, Jesus is ONE PERSON with TWO NATURES. Thus, Jesus is both a Human and God. He could do things that only Humans can do, through his human nature (e.g. feeling forsaken by God) and can do things only God can do through his Divine Nature (e.g. raise Himself from the dead).

 

[PietroPaolo]

We won’t have an answer to this one until we are standing before God. Only then will we have the answers to the questions that we seek.

True, but we can understand, even if only dimly. Otherwise, God wouldn’t have bothered revealing His Triune Nature to us in the first place.

 

[porthos11]

Of course you are extremely puzzled, you are delving into the deepest mystery of the Faith. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are ONE in ESSENCE, ONE in BEING, ONE in SUBSTANCE - that is they are ONE GOD. But they are THREE Separate Persons.The Father, for example, wasn’t crucified.

To further complicate matters, Jesus is ONE PERSON with TWO NATURES. Thus, Jesus is both a Human and God. He could do things that only Humans can do, through his human nature (e.g. feeling forsaken by God) and can do things only God can do through his Divine Nature (e.g. raise Himself from the dead).

You think that’s complicated? To further confuse the OP, with regards to his question on whether the Son and the Father had the same “mind”, Jesus had TWO WILLS (dyothelitism), which is why he was able to pray “not my will, but yours be done.”

 

[MindNight]

You think that’s complicated? To further confuse the OP, with regards to his question on whether the Son and the Father had the same “mind”, Jesus had TWO WILLS (dyothelitism), which is why he was able to pray “not my will, but yours be done.”

Haha you’re right, you did confuse me. (more so than before now). You scored 10 out of 10 when it comes to confusing me even more

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Haha you’re right, you did confuse me. (more so than before now). You scored 10 out of 10 when it comes to confusing me even more

Don’t worry, St. Augustine was confused about the concept of the Trinity too:

One day, St. Augustine was taking a walk along the seashore, mulling over the Trinity in his head, trying to understand the complexities of it. While walking he saw a little child playing by the sea. The Child had made a hole in the sand and was walking back and forth between the sand and the sea, carrying a little seashell. As St. Augustine watched, he watched the child take the seashell, scoop up some water from the sea, carefully walk back to the hole he had dug and pour the water into the hole. The child would do this repeatedly.

St. Augustine asked the child what he was doing. The child replied, “I am going to empty the sea into that hole, which I have dug in the sand.” St. Augustine laughed out loud and said “Child, that is quite impossible. Look how big the ocean is, and how small that hole is!” The child looked at him and answered, “And yet, it would be easier for me to do this than for you to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity.” With that, the child left.

 

[MindNight]

One day, St. Augustine was taking a walk along the seashore, mulling over the Trinity in his head, trying to understand the complexities of it. While walking he saw a little child playing by the sea. The Child had made a hole in the sand and was walking back and forth between the sand and the sea, carrying a little seashell. As St. Augustine watched, he watched the child take the seashell, scoop up some water from the sea, carefully walk back to the hole he had dug and pour the water into the hole. The child would do this repeatedly.

St. Augustine asked the child what he was doing. The child replied, “I am going to empty the sea into that hole, which I have dug in the sand.” St. Augustine laughed out loud and said “Child, that is quite impossible. Look how big the ocean is, and how small that hole is!” The child looked at him and answered, “And yet, it would be easier for me to do this than for you to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity.” With that, the child left.

Great story, but who wrote it? Is it eye witness testimony or what?

 

[PietroPaolo]

Haha you’re right, you did confuse me. (more so than before now). You scored 10 out of 10 when it comes to confusing me even more

Didn’t mean to further complicate the issue, just trying to provide greater clarity to the OP.

Of course, Christ did have two wills, monothelitism being condemned by the Third Council of Constantinople in 680. And, b/c He had two wills, the OP can see that Christ was praying to the Father with His Human Nature not through His Divine Nature, which wouldn’t feel forsaken.

Another St. Augustine quote comes to mind, “if you understand it, it is not God.”

 

[MindNight]

Didn’t mean to further complicate the issue, just trying to provide greater clarity to the OP.

No Worries at all. Infact it’s my fault (not yours or anybody else) that I can’t understand my left from my right when it comes to the trinity. You were telling me the truth about the way things are, which is good .

Another St. Augustine quote comes to mind, “if you understand it, it is not God.”

Ok and if one gets to heaven, will he/she then be able to fully understand God (and the mystery of the trinity) to the maximum capacity (or still not necessarily)?

 

[TimothyH]

Haha you’re right, you did confuse me. (more so than before now). You scored 10 out of 10 when it comes to confusing me even more

F.J. Sheed has a wonderful explanation of the Trinity in his book Theology for Beginners. I highly recommend it.

bks6.books.google.com/books?id=WD3ZAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE73Kh5ju7MqKGxMH5uGOpdzraT2WPBCWvGHfslt0ySV2Gv2F2r1mC3k1OKU_MQS_WhJj7AN_QUUCGTgMEMtXT7kB_DADJFdLUMMK6gJ2Omtcvlp6GAqVRnmKV-erNkp4iwBKjEYd

-Tim-

 

[PietroPaolo]

Ok and if one gets to heaven, will he/she then be able to fully understand God (and the mystery of the trinity) to the maximum capacity (or still not necessarily)?

God is infinite, so to be able to fully understand Him you’d have to have an infinite capacity to understand, but only God has such a capacity. Therefore, you’d have to be God to understand God completely. Which is one reason why Heaven (and it’s eternal contemplation of God) will never get boring!

 

[Doxiemom]

When Jesus was on the cross, all of the sin ever done, and to be done were placed upon Him. It was as if He became sin itself.

Yes, He and the Father are One. But how can the Father have sin placed upon Him?? So, at the moment, the Father withdrew Himself from the Son, This is the ONLY time recorded that Jesus calls His Father not by “Abba” or “My Father” but by “God”. This is a big distinction.

It was at this moment that Jesus truly became the Lamb of God slain for our sins; it having been done on Passover just as the lambs were slain for the sins of the Jews according to what God had ordered for them under the Law.

He was alone. Forsaken. Then it was finished. And He gave up His Spirit. And His Father was there for Him.