Why have you come to believe?

[AIPM1615]

I wasn’t raised Catholic by my parents, but as a kid I did develop an interest in religion and asked to receive the sacraments on my own accord. Over the years, I suppose I accepted everything at face value–that objective morality, the immortal soul, angels, God, the beatific vision, eternity, etc exists. There was no real internal conflict, I just ate it up and assumed it was true. Hopped on the militant Catholic bandwagon for awhile. You know the drill. A pretty traumatic series of event in my life has caused me to cast all of that aside and really look for the facts, the truth, in the midst of so much pain. Instead of finding any answers at all, I’ve discovered a boundless chaos of moral, empirical, and philosophical objections to the existence of God. Now, I’d categorize myself as an agnostic with Catholic cultural tenancies.

• There is absolutely nothing on earth that points to a supernatural reality. In other words, no “souls,” no angels or demons, no transubstantiation. I understand that, by definition, something supernatural transcends the material realm. So of course we can’t “observe” or “conduct experiments” on such things. All we have is what scripture and tradition say, but for those who don’t lend authority to those… well…
• “Miracles” don’t hold up to scientific critique. There aren’t really cases of the impossible happening (short of Christ’s Resurrection, but that’s another story, IMHO). It’s more of a god of the gaps argument - or as the Church implies most frequently - a saint of the gaps. “We don’t know how this person’s cancer disappeared, and since we prayed to Pope John Paul II every night since the diagnosis, he must’ve had something to do with it.” You get the idea.
• God doesn’t make himself known. There are no burning bushes, no voices, no apparitions, nothing. I’m not saying I want some cool divine appearance. If Jesus appeared at the foot of my bed I’d immediately check into the nearest insane asylum.
• The philosophical debates are a lot of mental gymnastics and word games. I’m not saying that I’m against making my mind do work, but in the end, the endless philosophizing is just a bunch of hot air. There will always be a counterargument. What is it all for?

These objections are just me skimming the surface of my qualms with the mere idea of religion. There’s a million other things to talk about, but I guess the biggest question I have is, why do other people believe? How can all of this be reconciled, short of a literal Deus ex machina? Has anyone had a similar experience and still found their way back to Christianity? Why do you believe?

Again… I’m not asking why a theoretical person might objectively believe. I’d like to hear YOUR (subjective) reasons. Personally, I would love to believe like I once did, but that’s simply not possible anymore. I don’t, and I can’t bring myself to. It’ll never be the same. And maybe that’s for the best.

Thank you in advance for your time.

 

[stuartbrianhenlis]

Welcome AIPM!

I’m not as knowledgeable as the rest of the members are, but I’ll be happy to share my reasons for believing in God. The primary reason for my belief is the mere fact that after a tortuous and severely abusive childhood, alcoholism and mental illness, I’m sitting in front of my laptop telling you why I believe.

In short, I should have died many times in my life: for years, that was my primary goal. But, I didn’t die. So, how did I go on when I didn’t want to? The grace of the very God you want to deny. Simple as that!

I can’t (and wouldn’t) offer you any deep philosophical or theological reasons for this. Because there aren’t any.

It’s pure faith and a loving God who loves me so much that He wants me to thrive. God loved me when I could not and would not love myself. He trusted me when I could not trust myself.

I share this with you because, if you think about it, faith is as simple as saying “God, help me because I can’t do this alone”!

Don’t complicate this, my friend. God IS! He will ALWAYS be there for you, but only if you’re willing to let Him be there for you. Just think about it, okay?

Stuart

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I was raised Catholic in a devout family.
God’s always there. He’s just a member of my family, along with His Mother Mary.
The saints are our holy friends.
I have the gift of faith, I guess, because I never had to think twice about it.

In times of trouble I’ve gotten enough answers, pointers, or spiritual guidance from God in various ways that I don’t need or want to engage in intellectual gymnastics trying to figure out if He exists, nor do I need to see a bush catch fire or any of that. It’s pointless to try to arrive at God by human reasoning. He is not comprehensible in that way.

I don’t go around “scientifically critiquing” miracles either. One can always find something to pick apart. In the case of modern day miracles, the Church conducts investigations on the ones we need to believe (such as the ones required to make a person a saint), which is good enough for me.

I realize this all probably sounds like I’m nuts to a non-religious person, and I’ve had some folks get really frustrated that I won’t engage in intellectual debates with them. So be it. I’m not on earth to make those people happy with me. I’m here to make God happy with me, and he does so much more for me than those people anyway.

If you want to know God, then open your heart and ask God to come in, ask to get to know Him. It’s not something that happens on a logical level.

 

[Torolf]

I don’t have any theological or philosophical reasons to offer you. I spent the majority of my life trying to think my way to God and it didn’t work. All my time studying and scouring the Bible just pushed me further away until I left Christianity entirely for several years.

The reason I believe now is nothing I can prove and most outside observers who haven’t had spiritual experiences would think I’m crazy.

I didn’t want to believe in God and I did everything I could to stop it. I was into some really bad things and I should not be here at all. I guess I left God no choice because when he revealed himself to me it was like a “spiritual 2x4 to the face” to use Fr. Donald Calaway’s description. The experience shook me to my core and I knew without a shred of doubt that God is real.

I know that probably doesn’t help but ultimately that’s the nature of faith. You can’t reason your way to God. In the end it requires us to let go and trust in something beyond our understanding and outside of our control.

I hope that you are able to find your faith. I’ll pray for you that Christ will call to you and you’ll be able to respond.

 

[Vico]

… the biggest question I have is, why do other people believe? How can all of this be reconciled, short of a literal Deus ex machina? Has anyone had a similar experience and still found their way back to Christianity? Why do you believe? …

I was baptized as in infant. The Holy Spirit changed me after I fell into sin so I recovered.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

You present your opinions as facts.

You may subjectively believe that there are no demons but there’s a heck of a lot about the case of Anneliese Michel that cannot be explained in terms of the natural world as it is scientifically understood.

Miracles” don’t hold up to scientific critique.

The scientific method is the running of controlled experiements repeatedly seeking predictable results. Literally the opposite of a miracle. Miracles can’t be scientifically observed because if they could, they wouldn’t be miracles. The Catholic Church does extensive research before endorsing a miracle. You can have your own opinion but i very much doubt you’ve read much more than wikipedia on this.

God doesn’t make himself known. There are no burning bushes, no voices, no apparitions, nothing. I’m not saying I want some cool divine appearance.

Yeah wouldn’t it be awful if God came to earth, did a little raising of the dead, feeding the 5,000 and then died a horrific death for the forgiveness of your sins. Who’d want that cool divine appearance.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yeah wouldn’t it be awful if God came to earth, did a little raising of the dead, feeding the 5,000 and then died a horrific death for the forgiveness of your sins. Who’d want that cool divine appearance.

Many people, including the OP, would not believe it anyway, because the OP goes on to say “miracles” don’t exist and always fail under scientific critique. This and all the “no angels or demons” etc. is the sign of a mind that is viewing totally in the logical/ human earthly plane, and not admitting the existence of a supernatural plane.

 

[pocaracas]

Yeah wouldn’t it be awful if God came to earth, did a little raising of the dead, feeding the 5,000 and then died a horrific death for the forgiveness of your sins. Who’d want that cool divine appearance.

Hahaha… a dead god! you funny!

Forgiveness of sins?.. forgiveness of something that only exists because god created it like that in the first place? Something that, if there is not god at all, doesn’t even exist to begin with!
No god => no sins => no salvation required => people are people and do what they do.
God => sets up rules => people don’t follow them => sins => salvation? => people do what they do.

 

[Francis]

It seems like most of us experienced few of the things you mentioned ,the same, at some point in our lives,well you know God, as if you have studied subject as in education,just for knowledge per say,but didn’t really have a God experience in your life,this doesn’t mean, it wasn’t there ,God is and was with you at every single stage of your life, right from your moment of conception till today and will be till your last breath of your live. I would like you to reflect your good things which you experienced in your life and thank God for it ,He knows you even though you don’t yet seem other wise,second surrender everything in his hands rather than doing things on your own as you often do.Please don’t get discouraged but rather get on your knees and ask for Jesus"s Mercy and to show you your mistakes,and have a personal relationship with him ,ask also the intersession of Mother Mary and your patron saint to pray for you and help you. as in Ecclesiastes 11:55 Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother’s womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything. Jeremiah 29:11 For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope. 12 Then when you call upon me and come and pray to me, I will hear you. 13 When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart, 14 I will let you find me, says the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

it seems your in many problems ,that’s why you have come to share your troubles,Jesus is testing your Faith this is a good opportunity to repent and come back to Him by repenting and make a good Examination of Conscience and confess them to a Catholic Priest God Bless

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

Slight modification:
No god => no sins => no salvation required => people are people and do what they do. correct hence why you can’t build a moral system of values without an appeal to absolute truth (i.e. God)
God => creates people for a purpose=> people diverge from that purpose => sins => sins need salvation ==> people lead better lives trying to obtain salvation ==> world becomes a better place

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

The OP can have whatever opinion they want, but they are misrepresenting their opinion as fact. It makes no sense to say that “God doesn’t make himself known” it’s just a circular arguement: I won’t believe in Jesus because God doesn’t make himself known.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You are correct. It seems like about once every three days we have some unbeliever come on here and post in the exact same way. I get tired of telling people, “Well, that’s, like just your opinion, maaaannn”.

 

[pocaracas]

Slight modification:
No god => no sins => no salvation required => people are people and do what they do. correct hence why you can’t build a moral system of values without an appeal to absolute truth (i.e. God)

One can build a moral system based on what appears to bring the maximum gain to humanity… or the least suffering.
Suffering can sort of be measured, or inferred.

Of course, this “appears to” has been highly dependent on each population’s shortsightedness.
Luckily, recent advances in global communications and transportation have opened us up to take into consideration populations from across the globe… If only the corporate mentality could see that, things would improve within a generation or two.

God => creates people for a purpose=> people diverge from that purpose => sins => sins need salvation ==> people lead better lives trying to obtain salvation ==> world becomes a better place

How was that working when the Church was in charge of Europe?

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

One can build a moral system based on what appears to bring the maximum gain to humanity

Defined as what? Do you actually have any examples of this happening by the way? Was the Soviet Union run in this way? Mao’s China? North Korea? Where are all these atheist paradises?

How was that working when the Church was in charge of Europe?

Well that statement alone shows your ignorance of what feudalism is but let’s run with it anyway. If you actually understood how human life has been for the ~200,000 years it existed and how long it took humans to form societies as opposed to tribes and the complexity that requires, then you’d appreciate what the middle ages did to lay the foundation for the enlightenment and industrial revolution.

Here’s some fun facts for you at the time of Jesus you would have probably lived to 35-45 years old. If you married then your wife had a 1/10 chance of dying in childbirth and and just 11% of the world’s population were over 50. That’s normal. That’s how human life has been for 98% of the 200,000 years it’s been around. Today you will probably live to be 85, your wife has virtually no chance of dying in childbirth and 44% of the worlds population is over 50. You’ll eat more calories, live in a bigger house and have more leisure time than 98% of the people that ever existed in the world before you. If you honestly think that the gap between these two periods was some kind of backwards dark age and the enlightenment and industrial revolution just appeared out of a hellish vaccum then you are simply not a historian or a man of scientific reason.

 

[pocaracas]

pocaracas:

One can build a moral system based on what appears to bring the maximum gain to humanity

Defined as what? Do you actually have any examples of this happening by the way? Was the Soviet Union run in this way? Mao’s China? North Korea? Where are all these atheist paradises?

I note you mention political systems, while we’re talking about a moral system…

pocaracas:

How was that working when the Church was in charge of Europe?

Well that statement alone shows your ignorance of what feudalism is but let’s run with it anyway. If you actually understood how human life has been for the ~200,000 years it existed and how long it took humans to form societies as opposed to tribes and the complexity that requires, then you’d appreciate what the middle ages did to lay the foundation for the enlightenment and industrial revolution.

Here’s some fun facts for you at the time of Jesus you would have probably lived to 35-45 years old. If you married then your wife had a 1/10 chance of dying in childbirth and and just 11% of the world’s population were over 50. That’s normal. That’s how human life has been for 98% of the 200,000 years it’s been around. Today you will probably live to be 85, your wife has virtually no chance of dying in childbirth and 44% of the worlds population is over 50. You’ll eat more calories, live in a bigger house and have more leisure time than 98% of the people that ever existed in the world before you. If you honestly think that the gap between these two periods was some kind of backwards dark age and the enlightenment and industrial revolution just appeared out of a hellish vaccum then you are simply not a historian or a man of scientific reason.

Pfft… How much more advanced we could be now, if not for much of the culling of great ideas at special points of time.
The damned Greeks had the steam engine all ready some time BC, but nooo… what would they do with all the slaves they had, if a machine could do most of their jobs? (curious that a similar argument exists today)

The printing press that had the potential to bring reading to the masses was opposed by none other than the RCC.

Yes, I agree with you that things advanced… but they could have advanced so much quicker, if not the the power of religion. So, your claim “the world becomes better place” does not match with history.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

but they could have advanced so much quicker, if not the the power of religion. So, your claim “the world becomes better place” does not match with history.

Evidence, evidence evidence. Where is your evidence for this statement? You have none because it’s an absolute counter-factual statement. When all the political systems that deny the existence of an absolute truth turn out to have horrible morals then that’s telling you something. You believe in some theoretical system of morals not based on absolute truth that has never been achieved but tried many times and you come on here trying to act like science and reason is on your side. You’re acting out the definition of insanity.

No offence but I only debate with people who i think are well educated on their chosen subject. I don’t think there’s anything more i can say that would make you change your mind and we’re already past the point where i think the average, reasonably intelligent neutral reader would agree with me so I really don’t have time for this silliness today and won’t be replying.

 

[pocaracas]

Evidence?.. China!

they too had religion, but it seems it didn’t inform their technological advancement so much.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Yeah, anytime I see someone who tries to discredit Christianity with science, I’m always suspicious of their motives, especially given that’s not how science is supposed to work. Anyway, what I believe can be summed up in the Nicene Creed.

 

[pianistclare]

What I find fascinating, is that if none or our faith or beliefs mean a fig to these people, why are they so (you should pardon the expression) hell-bent on talking about it? So you don’t believe. OK, what do you want then? I have a right to belief. Why come here and dismiss everything I hold dear, true, and holy?
I mean, billions of people have a relationship with Christ Jesus. We’re all being punked? Nope.
Not a compelling argument.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The ones who talk respectfully are usually interested from some sort of academic or just general knowledge-gathering perspective. I have a passing interest in how atheists and agnostics think for the same reason.

The ones who show up with a more confrontational attitude, I presume, have some chip on their shoulder from having to grow up around religious people or similar experience, or else there’s a small possibility they may actually on some level wonder if God perhaps really does exist somehow and they are looking for him.