Why Have You forsaken Me

[tmac1956]

I forgot to add that, in fact, Jesus was not abandoned by the Father and the Holy Spirit.

CCC 626 tells us:
…the divine person of the Son of God necessarily continued to possess his human soul and body, separated from each other by death…

Yes! I am surprised to hear Catholics holding to the idea that God turned his back on Jesus, causing him to exclaim: “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is a Protestant idea that I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church. I recently had this very discussion with a Sola Scriptura Baptist and his belief was that, since God cannot allow sin and, since Jesus took on all of our sins at that moment, God would have to turn his back on Jesus at that moment. When I asked him where I might find that in scripture, he simply replied, “… well, I think its very clear in that verse.”

 

[NotWorthy]

I have to clarify an important thing.
In my replies i was referring to that single moment
which exist between our life here and the life after,
and that is death. Death is the moment where our life
here ends and the after death starts which is an eternity.
And God is absent in that single moment only which
is death. Hope you will understand now this theology
of death.
God Bless
Nohamaria

No, I’m sorry. But I don’t. It seems like you are acting life our souls are asleep during this life and wake up at death. Our souls are our link with God and they never are affected by our physical well-being, which is why our physical deaths have no affect on them.

There is no “point of Godlessness” as we pass from this life into the next.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes! I am surprised to hear Catholics holding to the idea that God turned his back on Jesus, causing him to exclaim: “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is a Protestant idea that I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church. I recently had this very discussion with a Sola Scriptura Baptist and his belief was that, since God cannot allow sin and, since Jesus took on all of our sins at that moment, God would have to turn his back on Jesus at that moment. When I asked him where I might find that in scripture, he simply replied, “… well, I think its very clear in that verse.”

The underlined part is the crux of the whole matter. This kind of thinking leads one to mis-understand, IMO, that God and Jesus are one (with the Holy Spirit, too, of course). God cannot turn His back on Himself. Period.

 

[Nita]

Nita, I notice that there is something the posters in this
thread do not understand properly. This theology of death
is not my invention , it is the teaching of the church and
i heard it from some priests. Death is the opposite of
life. God is life giving than God does not exist in death.
He allows death to be the end of our life here
but he conqueror death by his death and resurrection.
Yes the soul doesn’t die from the first death which is
our bodies death, but after judjment it will face the Second
Death , which is the death of the souls : or as theologically
explained , the Absence of God.
I was only explaining to them what is Death and why God does
not exist in death. God is over death and conquor death and
do not exist in death. I don’t know how to explain it to them
because they don’t reply to me about what is death?
and why God does not exist in Death.
Thank you Nita for your reply.
God Bless
Nohamaria

I think the misunderstandings have to do with the first death. (I think all probably agree that the second death, death of the soul, consists of separation from God/absence of God.)

Just to clarify what happens in the first death:
We experience bodily death when **our soul **departs from our body. (Bodily death isn’t defined in terms of God’s presence or absence - but rather in terms of the presence or absence of our soul.)
So, human nature can experience death of the body, but God can still be present to that human nature. For Jesus, God/Trinity, was present to both His body and His soul before, during and after His death.

 

[davymax3]

I think it incorrect to look at Jesus’s statement simply as an exposition or lecture. That’s almost impossible given what he was going through. Jesus truly suffered. He felt this pain. I think Jesus said this as we say lots of things in life, in exasperation. Jesus crying out “why hast thou forsaken me?” does not imply that God did abandon him. It’s an expression of his humanity. Don’t we sometimes feel alone? This doesn’t mean that we are. Christ, in this moment, felt alone for a moment, he felt abandoned, in his humanity. Mind you, this is not a sin, this is not a denial of God or a doubt that God is with Him. It is a very true emotion, that he expresses. And being God he certainly knows the answer to his question, is well, of course, God the Father and Holy Spirit are still with me. However, nonetheless, God has distinct parts. We are witnessing their interaction. Christ, feels this separateness from his Father during this moment, and he desires to be with Him again in heaven. This is the climax of the Gospel’s and of Jesus’s life on earth. Jesus knows that he is going to experience physical death and descend into hell, I think this is certainly an appropriate expression.

It’s certainly valid to speak of the line in context of the Psalm. It would be dishonest not to. However, looking at it only in this context is equally dishonest. We should never doubt the ability of God to communicate to us in multiple ways in the same expression.

 

[tmac1956]

The underlined part is the crux of the whole matter. This kind of thinking leads one to mis-understand, IMO, that God and Jesus are one (with the Holy Spirit, too, of course). God cannot turn His back on Himself. Period.

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[nohamaria]

No, I’m sorry. But I don’t. It seems like you are acting life our souls are asleep during this life and wake up at death. Our souls are our link with God and they never are affected by our physical well-being, which is why our physical deaths have no affect on them.

There is no “point of Godlessness” as we pass from this life into the next.

All right what about our bodies, from where they get life ? And who end
their life? I am speaking about our bodies’ death? Is God himself
who end it or something else. ? If you say it is God than God
is’nt life giving anymore, he is death giving? That is my final
reply and i am a perfect catholic and church teaching
follower.At least check with an apologetic about that death theology
than put up your beleif.
God Bless.
Nohamaria.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think it incorrect to look at Jesus’s statement simply as an exposition or lecture. That’s almost impossible given what he was going through. Jesus truly suffered. He felt this pain. I think Jesus said this as we say lots of things in life, in exasperation. Jesus crying out “why hast thou forsaken me?” does not imply that God did abandon him. It’s an expression of his humanity. Don’t we sometimes feel alone? This doesn’t mean that we are. Christ, in this moment, felt alone for a moment, he felt abandoned, in his humanity. Mind you, this is not a sin, this is not a denial of God or a doubt that God is with Him. It is a very true emotion, that he expresses. And being God he certainly knows the answer to his question, is well, of course, God the Father and Holy Spirit are still with me. However, nonetheless, God has distinct parts. We are witnessing their interaction. Christ, feels this separateness from his Father during this moment, and he desires to be with Him again in heaven. This is the climax of the Gospel’s and of Jesus’s life on earth. Jesus knows that he is going to experience physical death and descend into hell, I think this is certainly an appropriate expression.

It’s certainly valid to speak of the line in context of the Psalm. It would be dishonest not to. However, looking at it only in this context is equally dishonest. We should never doubt the ability of God to communicate to us in multiple ways in the same expression.

And I think that it is equally dishonest to indicate that our Lord suffered even a brief instant of despair. Christ conquered on the Cross, he didn’t seep into despair, which would indicate a sense of failure!

Agony? Yes. Love and Forgiveness? Yes.

Despair and sense of dis-attachment? Never.

 

[davymax3]

And I think that it is equally dishonest to indicate that our Lord suffered even a brief instant of despair. Christ conquered on the Cross, he didn’t seep into despair, which would indicate a sense of failure!

Agony? Yes. Love and Forgiveness? Yes.

Despair and sense of dis-attachment? Never.

I never said he stepped into despair. I don’t mention hope or lack there of anywhere in my post. Nor does anyone else to my reckoning.

sense of dis-attachment I think is certainly possible. Christ can at one and the same sense the attachment he has as part of the Holy Trinity and the dis-attachment as being a distinct person. This “sense of dis-attachment” might be the wrong phrase, I admit. But by it, I mean, “the sense that Christ feels as being separate and distinct from the other Persons of the Trinity.” That sense I think was most felt by Our Lord at Cavalry on the Cross when he spoke those words.

 

[YADA]

I think it incorrect to look at Jesus’s statement simply as an exposition or lecture. That’s almost impossible given what he was going through. Jesus truly suffered. He felt this pain. I think Jesus said this as we say lots of things in life, in exasperation. Jesus crying out “why hast thou forsaken me?” does not imply that God did abandon him. It’s an expression of his humanity. Don’t we sometimes feel alone? This doesn’t mean that we are. Christ, in this moment, felt alone for a moment, he felt abandoned, in his humanity. Mind you, this is not a sin, this is not a denial of God or a doubt that God is with Him. It is a very true emotion, that he expresses. And being God he certainly knows the answer to his question, is well, of course, God the Father and Holy Spirit are still with me. However, nonetheless, God has distinct parts. We are witnessing their interaction. Christ, feels this separateness from his Father during this moment, and he desires to be with Him again in heaven. This is the climax of the Gospel’s and of Jesus’s life on earth. Jesus knows that he is going to experience physical death and descend into hell, I think this is certainly an appropriate expression.

It’s certainly valid to speak of the line in context of the Psalm. It would be dishonest not to. However, looking at it only in this context is equally dishonest. We should never doubt the ability of God to communicate to us in multiple ways in the same expression.

And is that not why this Psalm is so powerful … it begins as a “crying out to God from a feeling of abandonment … and end with the realization that God is always there, he always hears our cries and responds with love and he always will - for us and for ages yet unborn” … the Psalm expresses what Jesus is accomplishing on the Cross for humanity … Jesus united with us in the flesh knows shares our human cry to God … Jesus united in the One God knows His everlasting love and response to that cry …

You could say that is why we refer to “Good Friday” as well good … it was horrific in the pain and suffering Jesus took upon Himself for us … paying the price for our sins … but we have Life, life in Christ … Christ vanguishes death, wipes away the tears … and prepares for us the Banquet, the Wedding Feast …

Nothing Jesus said from the Cross is not packed with meaning … each word from the very Word is calling out to us to see God’s love in our life …

 

[davymax3]

Yes. Agreed. I just thought that it was important to look at it from both sides.

 

[NotWorthy]

I never said he stepped into despair. I don’t mention hope or lack there of anywhere in my post. Nor does anyone else to my reckoning.

sense of dis-attachment I think is certainly possible. Christ can at one and the same sense the attachment he has as part of the Holy Trinity and the dis-attachment as being a distinct person. This “sense of dis-attachment” might be the wrong phrase, I admit. But by it, I mean, “the sense that Christ feels as being separate and distinct from the other Persons of the Trinity.” That sense I think was most felt by Our Lord at Cavalry on the Cross when he spoke those words.

If you thought for one minute that your soul-mate, whom you loved for 50 years, had abandoned you, would you not feel a deep sense of loss? How much more is the intamacy between the three Persons of the Trinity? How much despair would Jesus have to have felt to think for even an eyeblink that God had abandoned (even if that were possible, which it is not).

 

[davymax3]

If you thought for one minute that your soul-mate, whom you loved for 50 years, had abandoned you, would you not feel a deep sense of loss? How much more is the intamacy between the three Persons of the Trinity? How much despair would Jesus have to have felt to think for even an eyeblink that God had abandoned (even if that were possible, which it is not).

Are you purposefully being obtuse? I particularly said that God did not abandon Jesus, and I never said that Jesus thought that he was abandoned. I already made that point. If he had said, “God, you have abandoned me. Why?” Then sure. But the way Jesus says this, it’s different. Christ does this throughout the Bible. He says I’ve said these words for you many times. Christ is speaking as a human does, purposefully to express the suffering he is going through.

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you purposefully being obtuse? I particularly said that God did not abandon Jesus, and I never said that Jesus thought that he was abandoned. I already made that point. If he had said, “God, you have abandoned me. Why?” Then sure. But the way Jesus says this, it’s different. Christ does this throughout the Bible. He says I’ve said these words for you many times. Christ is speaking as a human does, purposefully to express the suffering he is going through.

Me?!? Obtuse?!? I’m just a harmless little fuzz-ball! I’m not obtuse. (OK, OK, I’ll go look up obtuse in the dictionary just to make sure! )

Here’s what you originally said:

davymax3:

I never said he stepped into despair. I don’t mention hope or lack there of anywhere in my post. Nor does anyone else to my reckoning.

This is the stuff I’ve been reacting to on this thread:
nohomaria:

Jesus was at that moment in agony and facing death.
death means the absence of God. God is the life giving
and death is the opposite of life. Therefore the soul
face death when it is away from God.
Jesus , while facing death feels the absence of God,
and his cry for beeing forsaken is a proof to us that
God does not exist in death . and it is another proof
to beleive that God will is giving us Eternal life. The fulfilment of
The Psalm 22:18 is the proof about Jesus as the
Son of God. But it didn’t explain why Jesus had cried
out the above sentence.
My explanation is based on the church teaching of the matter.

In your case, Davymax, I"m agreeing that Jesus never felt abandoned by God. But there are others that are being obtuse about this.

 

[davymax3]

This is the stuff I’ve been reacting to on this thread:
In your case, Davymax, I"m agreeing that Jesus never felt abandoned by God. But there are others that are being obtuse about this.

yes, that one poster was being a bit silly in saying that. But, I completely disagree with that viewpoint. That was part of what I was saying. Anyway… I think we’re pretty much in agreement, just coming from opposite sides.

 

[nohamaria]

Me?!? Obtuse?!? I’m just a harmless little fuzz-ball! I’m not obtuse. (OK, OK, I’ll go look up obtuse in the dictionary just to make sure! )

Here’s what you originally said:

This is the stuff I’ve been reacting to on this thread:
In your case, Davymax, I"m agreeing that Jesus never felt abandoned by God. But there are others that are being obtuse about this.

Hi Notworthy, I see that you are worthy and very
precious in the eyes of God. God will exist even
in death and Be Death just to make you feel right!!!.
I didn’t in any of my replies humitiate you , than
why you are doing it for me.
If someone disagree in your theology, than
he should be humiliated, so I thank God
because you are not God.
would you please keep some respect to others
in your replies.
Finish , I’ll unsubscribe from this thread.
Nohamaria.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

What did Jesus mean when he said on the cross to his Father “My God MY God Why Have You Forsaken Me”. Did He not know what was happening? Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut in advance. This is just something I was pondering.

Just because a nut says something does not mean that what was said is nutty.

Having said that, I’d like to cite Harald Camping.

Mr. Camping (who really has become what he condemned for years – a “date setter”) had the idea, years ago, that something happened to Jesus during the Agony in the Garden and during the Crucifixion process amount to an amazing functional dis-connection between Christ and His Father, that was infinitely more painful than physical pain.

Is that what Christ was referring to? Just because Mr. Camping went “around the bend” on us does not mean that we should condemn his idea.

 

[davymax3]

Hi Notworthy, I see that you are worthy and very
precious in the eyes of God. God will exist even
in death and Be Death just to make you feel right!!!.
I didn’t in any of my replies humitiate you , than
why you are doing it for me.
If someone disagree in your theology, than
he should be humiliated, so I thank God
because you are not God.
would you please keep some respect to others
in your replies.
Finish , I’ll unsubscribe from this thread.
Nohamaria.

How were you humiliated? Because he said you were being obtuse? I think that was said somewhat in jest… I don’t think he meant to humiliate you, nor did I.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi Notworthy, I see that you are worthy and very
precious in the eyes of God. God will exist even
in death and Be Death just to make you feel right!!!.
I didn’t in any of my replies humitiate you , than
why you are doing it for me.
If someone disagree in your theology, than
he should be humiliated, so I thank God
because you are not God.
would you please keep some respect to others
in your replies.
Finish , I’ll unsubscribe from this thread.
Nohamaria.

Dearest, Nohamaria. I was not trying to belittle you. I was simply playing with davymax who had called me obtuse, tossing the “obtuse” back at him. It was not meant to demean you in any way, and I’m sorry if you thought that.

I like to keep these threads light-hearted, for we often wear our hearts on our sleeves. We’re all working for the same goal, and we shouldn’t bite each other’s heads off.

So, again. I wasn’t trying to make you seem obtuse. Instead, I was trying to pick with davymax. I assumed anyone following this thread would have picked up on that.

Mea Culpa!

God Bless!

John

 

[NotWorthy]

How were you humiliated? Because he said you were being obtuse? I think that was said somewhat in jest… I don’t think he meant to humiliate you, nor did I.

Thanks brother. And you were right. Sometimes, I wonder if my humor is too subtle making others think I’m just being … (wait, wait)… um, obtuse?

I PM’d my last post to Nohomaria, in the hopes that she’ll reconsider joining the thread.