Why haven't any LDS (Mormon) leaders exposed their church as a fraud?

[RebeccaJ]

Do you think it’s something like this: they define mormon teaching using normal human faculties, but since they are apostles/the president of the church, they assume their decisions were guided by God? Since they’ve always been taught that those officials were guided by God, they just assume that once they achieve that position, that they will be?

Those in Mormon leadership believe they are there because their God called them. They are called through other people, in the case of the Mormon apostles, they are called by their president/“prophet”. In the case of their prophet, they believe the calling comes straight from their God, but determined through their apostles.

In reality, it is based on tenure. The one who has been an apostle the longest becomes president/“prophet”. The remaining 11 move up a notch and a new one is called by the new president/“prophet”.

The “calling” in Mormonism is central to their social order. Every adult has a calling, that comes for most from their bishop. The bishop is called by a stake president…and on up the chain.

It’s considered unwise to turn down a calling, because it is from their God.

But yes, this is what Mormons are taught, and obviously they believe their leader is a prophet. I’d say, yes, as a kid I absolutely believed it because I believed what I was taught. Obviously, if a person is a Mormon they have this belief, including about themselves (if they are in the upper hierarchy of Mormonism).

All I can say is, I know Mormon men who were head-tripping over their Mormon “callings”. I’ve been in non-religious settings related to business where their Mormon “prophet” was there, and the Mormons were acting like it was the most special moment of their lives. They BELIEVE.

Can’t say I get it, but I’ve never been a star-struck kind of person. The “called by God” wore off pretty quick, and was gone before I was an adult, mainly from experience. Nothing Godly to report here. In short, I stopped believing things because people said I should.

 

[pmccombs]

Like many have said here, if the Mormon leaders are frauds, at least they don’t know it. I think they truly, sincerely believe in their claims.

One reason why I think those who say (particularly disaffected former Mormons) that the Mormon leaders are knowingly perpetrating fraud are wrong is that Mormon leaders are drawn from lay clergy. We’ve all been brought up to believe in this stuff; what happens when we get into the hierarchy, and suddenly, it’s all, “hey, fellas, isn’t this a great joke? And look at all this power we have!” Oh yeah, forget those formerly cherished religious beliefs about Jesus and doing good and having eternal life and all that. Let’s just quietly do fraud now. Right? That GA stipend is soooo tempting to former business executives. And driving an Avalon… wow.

So those who claim Mormon leaders are willing frauds insult all Mormons by insinuating that they’re all either idiots or fraudulent by nature.

Most conspiracy is invisible-hand sort of thing anyway; people involved typically don’t know it. But maybe the Mormon leaders are right, and God really has chosen from among America’s business elite to constitute His Church’s governing body, however unlikely it may seem.

 

[truthseeker32]

Do you think it’s something like this: they define mormon teaching using normal human faculties, but since they are apostles/the president of the church, they assume their decisions were guided by God? Since they’ve always been taught that those officials were guided by God, they just assume that once they achieve that position, that they will be?

This question is at the root of my OP. If those who find their way into the highest ranks of the LDS church only expect their new-found ability for revelation to be similar to what they had already experienced prior I can see how they could continue to believe.

I would be curious to find out how the majority of Mormons understand the prophetic abilities of their leaders. I am sure some actually believe that they see and commune directly with God and angels, while others probably accept a view holding that the leadership experiences personal revelation in a way similar to anyone else, only theirs is for the church as a whole.

 

[truthseeker32]

I mean available to the local congregation as a matter of openness. Most Catholic parishes have a pastoral council with a finance committee that reports the financial state of the parish to the congregation. Is that not routinely done as an aspect of administrative policy in LDS Stake Centres?

Virtually every board or organization that relies on public funds/donations has an implicit moral, if not legal, responsibility to be accountable for its financial affairs. A publicly available financial statement is almost always a requirement for how this responsibility is met.

I understand. It seems there are three categories of churches. Those that openly reports finances, those that neither openly report or intentionally hide finances, and those than do intentionally hide financial records. Many Christian parishes fall into the second category. I would probably place LDS wards in the second category. In fact, they seem to be this way with things such as church history as well. They don’t technically hide it from members, but they also don’t draw awareness to it, which seems to be hurting their numbers lately.

 

[pmccombs]

This question is at the root of my OP. If those who find their way into the highest ranks of the LDS church only expect their new-found ability for revelation to be similar to what they had already experienced prior I can see how they could continue to believe.

Yes, I think this is exactly how it is, although I do believe there are occasional experiences that go beyond the mundane.

I would be curious to find out how the majority of Mormons understand the prophetic abilities of their leaders. I am sure some actually believe that they see and commune directly with God and angels, while others probably accept a view holding that the leadership experiences personal revelation in a way similar to anyone else, only theirs is for the church as a whole.

While I expect some of them occasionally hear and see things, I recall at one time a GA talking about his “special witness” as being something that he had all along. In other words, once you get the call, the witness becomes “special” by virtue of the high calling and not for having some new quality. Anyway, I used to think that the apostles and prophets had a sure witness and a more objective type of contact with the Lord. I have since come to believe that this generally isn’t the case. I’m not sure what others think, but I suppose most good Mormons believe the prophets and apostles have a more intense and personal experience with revelation than we generally allow for ourselves. I’d say most Mormons probably believe the prophet has seen and spoken with Jesus face-to-face.

 

[Publisher]

The easiest, and most direct answer is… If you keep repeating the same story over and over, eventually you believe it, whether it is true or not.

.

Sooo, if the “same story” is told over and over for better than 1900 years…is that the same?

 

[twopekinguys]

Sooo, if the “same story” is told over and over for better than 1900 years…is that the same?

There is much more substantial proof to the 1900 year old version as opposed to the 150 +/- version. Wouldn’t you say?

Lets see…Gold plates…nope, can’t find em. Tomb of St. Peter…Check…Know right where that is.

We could go further, but why?

 

[TexanKnight]

Like many have said here, if the Mormon leaders are frauds, at least they don’t know it. I think they truly, sincerely believe in their claims.

Yes…many do

One reason why I think those who say (particularly disaffected former Mormons) that the Mormon leaders are knowingly perpetrating fraud are wrong is that Mormon leaders are drawn from lay clergy. We’ve all been brought up to believe in this stuff; what happens when we get into the hierarchy, and suddenly, it’s all, “hey, fellas, isn’t this a great joke? And look at all this power we have!” Oh yeah, forget those formerly cherished religious beliefs about Jesus and doing good and having eternal life and all that. Let’s just quietly do fraud now. Right? That GA stipend is soooo tempting to former business executives. And driving an Avalon… wow.

Are you serious? Do you ignore the power they have? The adulation they receive? And if they were ever to speak the truth and say it is all a sham, think of the scorn from EVERYONE they would get. Do you truly deny that?

So those who claim Mormon leaders are willing frauds insult all Mormons by insinuating that they’re all either idiots or fraudulent by nature.

I do not think they are idiots…I think they are duped like the follwers of James Jones, SDA, JW, etc. I am not the one buying false documents from Hoffman and covering them up. I am not the one refusing to escavate at Palmyra because i KNOW nothing will be found…You simply have no answers for this stuff…

 

[manualman]

Human nature. I’m not familiar with LDS claims about the level of direct communication the leadership supposedly has with God, but I am a bit of an observer of human nature. Who is placed in leadership of organizations? Answer: those who have devoted whole portions of their lives to the service of those organizations. What if you lived your whole life believing that the faithful leaders had direct communication with God and then one day YOU were made one of those leaders and nothing happened? You’d think it was a problem with YOU. You’d cover up your failure. You’d try to keep up a good front ‘for the greater good.’

We catholics saw some of this in the priest abuse scandal where seemingly otherwise decent men preferred to hide the horrific truth when they learned it instead of exposing it to the light of day for all to see, with associated scandals and messes. I suspect a similar thing happens to LDS leadership (assuming I understand you correctly and their leadership claims some sort of direct hotline to God).

This phenomenon of human nature actually bolsters the case for the catholic church. The New Testament makes the apostles look like bunglers, not wise men. It shows that the apostles recognized that they weren’t taking the easy road of honor, comfort and prestige, but a road that lead to martyrdom (11 out of 12). The claim of the empty tomb didn’t get honor or prestige in the worldly sense for ANY of the witnesses. That’s unlike any other self described prophet or ‘savior’ since then.

 

[tarboy]

On the other hand, the LDS leaders, both past and present, claim to have modern day revelation guiding the organization. **If they are not actually what they claim to be why is it that none of the 16 presidents, and additional men calling themselves apostles, have admitted it is fraudulent? **

Anyone who professes to be Christian can reference scripture on the gift of prophecy. The fact that few lds leaders have been caught in scandals (aka televangelists) or admit they are fraudulent probably indicates only true believers make it to the top.

Spiritual Gifts (wiki link)
Prophet: In the New Testament, the office of prophet is second only to the office of apostle (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11). The prophet’s corresponding gift is prophecy. Prophecy is “reporting something that God spontaneously brings to your mind”. Many, particularly Pentecostals and charismatics, distinguish between the “office of prophet” and the “gift of prophecy”, believing that a Christian can possess the gift of prophecy without holding the prophetic office.

 

[runningdude]

Do you think it’s something like this: they define mormon teaching using normal human faculties, but since they are apostles/the president of the church, they assume their decisions were guided by God? Since they’ve always been taught that those officials were guided by God, they just assume that once they achieve that position, that they will be?

Or maybe it’s like in some Protestant denominations where pastors get a feeling that God has “put on their heart” something to say. Whether God really did or not, who knows, but it doesn’t strike me as a fool-proof way of knowing God’s will.

 

[runningdude]

Like many have said here, if the Mormon leaders are frauds, at least they don’t know it. I think they truly, sincerely believe in their claims.

A nitpick, but one is either sincere, or a fraud. You seem to be describing the leadership as sincere; hence they are not unknowingly frauds. A fraud exploits the sincerity of others. The sincere leaders of the CJC-LDS are just misguided.

One reason why I think those who say (particularly disaffected former Mormons) that the Mormon leaders are knowingly perpetrating fraud are wrong is that Mormon leaders are drawn from lay clergy. We’ve all been brought up to believe in this stuff; what happens when we get into the hierarchy, and suddenly, it’s all, “hey, fellas, isn’t this a great joke? And look at all this power we have!” Oh yeah, forget those formerly cherished religious beliefs about Jesus and doing good and having eternal life and all that. Let’s just quietly do fraud now. Right? That GA stipend is soooo tempting to former business executives. And driving an Avalon… wow.

So those who claim Mormon leaders are willing frauds insult all Mormons by insinuating that they’re all either idiots or fraudulent by nature.

Most conspiracy is invisible-hand sort of thing anyway; people involved typically don’t know it. But maybe the Mormon leaders are right, and God really has chosen from among America’s business elite to constitute His Church’s governing body, however unlikely it may seem.

I otherwise concur with the content of your post

 

[pmccombs]

Are you serious? Do you ignore the power they have? The adulation they receive? And if they were ever to speak the truth and say it is all a sham, think of the scorn from EVERYONE they would get. Do you truly deny that?

Well, you might be right, but I don’t think it’s very likely. I think we would have had whistle-blowers by now if those guys really knew they were perpetrating a scam. In the first place, the Church would have to recruit shady personalities in order to continue this deception, and since church leadership consists of well-known figures with long histories of faithful Church membership, I don’t think they are going to find the types who are willing to forsake their religious convictions at the drop of a hat for the sake of power and adulation.

I do not think they are idiots…I think they are duped like the follwers of James Jones, SDA, JW, etc.

Duped? A “dupe” is one who is easily deceived or fooled, i.e. an idiot.

I am not the one buying false documents from Hoffman and covering them up. I am not the one refusing to escavate at Palmyra because i KNOW nothing will be found…You simply have no answers for this stuff…

On the contrary. LDS apologists have debunked these spurious anti-Mormon claims ad nauseum.

You know, I’m not a particularly good Mormon. Actually, I doubt the doctrines and teaching of any church represent objective reality. It’s all make-believe in my view. Nevertheless, whenever I see the rants of rabid anti-Mormons, anti-Catholics, atheists, or what-have-you, I often find them to be unjust, misleading, and sensational.

Wherever we find well-established religion, it’s serious business. Many intelligent people have found it compelling and have come to terms with most of the apparent problems in it–whether it is Mormonism, Catholicism, or whatever.

There are no easy arguments against religion. We’re dealing with justified belief and intelligent human beings. These people have been looking for answers and have found them. Although I have occasionally engaged in such behavior myself, attacks on religious beliefs (particularly by those who profess a faith of their own) are in remarkably poor taste and typically have the opposite of the intended effect. If you want a person to give some credulity to Mormonism, tell him how fraudulent and corrupt it is (we get plenty of converts that way, actually. Nothing stirs interest like controversy). If you want him to dismiss it, show him something better.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well, you might be right, but I don’t think it’s very likely. I think we would have had whistle-blowers by now if those guys really knew they were perpetrating a scam. In the first place, the Church would have to recruit shady personalities in order to continue this deception, and since church leadership consists of well-known figures with long histories of faithful Church membership, I don’t think they are going to find the types who are willing to forsake their religious convictions at the drop of a hat for the sake of power and adulation.

Duped? A “dupe” is one who is easily deceived or fooled, i.e. an idiot.

On the contrary. LDS apologists have debunked these spurious anti-Mormon claims ad nauseum.

You know, I’m not a particularly good Mormon. Actually, I doubt the doctrines and teaching of any church represent objective reality. It’s all make-believe in my view. Nevertheless, whenever I see the rants of rabid anti-Mormons, anti-Catholics, atheists, or what-have-you, I often find them to be unjust, misleading, and sensational.

Wherever we find well-established religion, it’s serious business. Many intelligent people have found it compelling and have come to terms with most of the apparent problems in it–whether it is Mormonism, Catholicism, or whatever.

There are no easy arguments against religion. We’re dealing with justified belief and intelligent human beings. These people have been looking for answers and have found them. Although I have occasionally engaged in such behavior myself, attacks on religious beliefs (particularly by those who profess a faith of their own) are in remarkably poor taste and typically have the opposite of the intended effect. If you want a person to give some credulity to Mormonism, tell him how fraudulent and corrupt it is (we get plenty of converts that way, actually. Nothing stirs interest like controversy). If you want him to dismiss it, show him something better.

I think you’re overlooking one very likely probability. How many of the “prophets”, members of the 12, etc. are related to someone who has been there before?

So many of these are son in laws, brother in laws, nephews, grandchild, etc. of a previous general authority, so it makes it much easier to keep it in the family, and keep the secret going.

 

[runningdude]

I think you’re overlooking one very likely probability. How many of the “prophets”, members of the 12, etc. are related to someone who has been there before?

So many of these are son in laws, brother in laws, nephews, grandchild, etc. of a previous general authority, so it makes it much easier to keep it in the family, and keep the secret going.

You can choose the conspiracy route, but you will find it a lonely road.

 

[runningdude]

Wherever we find well-established religion, it’s serious business. Many intelligent people have found it compelling and have come to terms with most of the apparent problems in it–whether it is Mormonism, Catholicism, or whatever.

There are no easy arguments against religion. We’re dealing with justified belief and intelligent human beings. These people have been looking for answers and have found them. Although I have occasionally engaged in such behavior myself, attacks on religious beliefs (particularly by those who profess a faith of their own) are in remarkably poor taste and typically have the opposite of the intended effect. If you want a person to give some credulity to Mormonism, tell him how fraudulent and corrupt it is (we get plenty of converts that way, actually. Nothing stirs interest like controversy). If you want him to dismiss it, show him something better.

Great conclusion

 

[TexanKnight]

Well, you might be right, but I don’t think it’s very likely. I think we would have had whistle-blowers by now if those guys really knew they were perpetrating a scam.

Doubtful…too much is riding on it…and the whistleblowers you HAVE had have been mocked and ridiculed…ie. Grant Palmer…

In the first place, the Church would have to recruit shady personalities in order to continue this deception, and since church leadership consists of well-known figures with long histories of faithful Church membership, I don’t think they are going to find the types who are willing to forsake their religious convictions at the drop of a hat for the sake of power and adulation.

Well…the only people to be in positions of leadership all fit the same mold. Watch GC…they all act and talk the same. It is pretty amazing

Duped? A “dupe” is one who is easily deceived or fooled, i.e. an idiot.

Yep…duped. and that included me. I was just smart enough to find my way out of it

On the contrary. LDS apologists have debunked these spurious anti-Mormon claims ad nauseum.

Incredibly wrong. They have spouted stuff that intelligent folks don;t but and that do not debunk anything. Your leaders (guided by your god) were fooled by Hoffman to the tune of many thousands of dollars. Can;t debunk the truth.

You know, I’m not a particularly good Mormon.

Thats ok…neither am I

Actually, I doubt the doctrines and teaching of any church represent objective reality. It’s all make-believe in my view. Nevertheless, whenever I see the rants of rabid anti-Mormons, anti-Catholics, atheists, or what-have-you, I often find them to be unjust, misleading, and sensational.

Well, I am not any of those labels, so you can label folks on other sites. We here only speak the truth…and it is not anti-anything. It is just truth

Wherever we find well-established religion, it’s serious business. Many intelligent people have found it compelling and have come to terms with most of the apparent problems in it–whether it is Mormonism, Catholicism, or whatever.

Nice deflection and attempt and grouping to make both seem equal. They are not equal. Only the LDS follows a false prophet and a book with absolutely no scientific proof to support it.

There are no easy arguments against religion. We’re dealing with justified belief and intelligent human beings. These people have been looking for answers and have found them. Although I have occasionally engaged in such behavior myself, attacks on religious beliefs (particularly by those who profess a faith of their own) are in remarkably poor taste and typically have the opposite of the intended effect. If you want a person to give some credulity to Mormonism, tell him how fraudulent and corrupt it is (we get plenty of converts that way, actually. Nothing stirs interest like controversy). If you want him to dismiss it, show him something better.

Actually, you don’t. People leave the LDS Church in droves after realizing the truth

 

[jrtrent]

Wherever we find well-established religion, it’s serious business. Many intelligent people have found it compelling and have come to terms with most of the apparent problems in it–whether it is Mormonism, Catholicism, or whatever.

Excellent observation.

These people have been looking for answers and have found them. Although I have occasionally engaged in such behavior myself, attacks on religious beliefs (particularly by those who profess a faith of their own) are in remarkably poor taste . . .

Even better! Thanks for that reminder.

 

[andrewstx]

Mormonism is big business in Utah, Nevada, Arizona and Idaho. They have to keep it going for monetary reasons if nothing else.

If mormonism were exposed it would likely crash Utah’s economy.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormonism is big business in Utah, Nevada, Arizona and Idaho. They have to keep it going for monetary reasons if nothing else.

If mormonism were exposed it would likely crash Utah’s economy.

While I do believe that some of the GA’s are TBMs, I also agree with the above statement.

The economy of the Mormon corridor would suffer at catastrophic collapse effecting millions of people and their families…