Why haven't i learned a single thing in Mass

[Corki]

I’m saying they don’t teach you a single thing about the gospel. You can go for a hundred years and they would never have taught you they believe in the Resurrection or the doctrine of the resurrection. Meaning, we will all be resurrected just like Christ was and we’ll all have eternal, physical bodies in heaven. With the same body we have right now. They don’t teach those kind of doctrines or principles in mass.

We pray those doctrines in every Mass!

I’ve been dozens of times and they haven’t taught a single thing. Its just a ritual. The only thing that makes sense is the sacrament part with the communion.

But each ritual teaches with words and symbols.

You don;t believe in an apastolic church because you reject the need of the office of apostles and apostles. I know you have a different interpretation of it but in order to be clear, Apastolic is present tense. Since you haven’t had any apostles in 2000 years, it would be clearer to say you believe in office of Apostleship that ended 2000 years ago

We “believe in one, holy, catholic and **apostolic **Church” We pray that at every Mass too.

Am i the only one paying attention to the prayers?

Evidently, you aren’t paying very close attention to the actual words of the prayers - especially the Creed.

The homilies main purpose to to expand on the Scripture readings of the day. A good homilist may also include catechesis and applied living. Catholics don’t go to Mass to be “taught” however. It is pure worship. Us to God. We have lots of other ways to be intellectually fed.

 

[JRKH]

Nebula, you cannot use that arguement because that isn’t what you believe. Communion is the ordinance. Mass is the sacrament and everything else included.

I’m sure there’s spiritual things to learn in Mass because of all the symbology and so forth that i don’t know about yet but i can figure a lot of them out.

Like why the priest wears all those robes and so forth. But to actually be taught doctrines or principles, that’s not the purpose and isn’t a part of mass. I’m wondering why you can’t agree with that. You should be defending why thats so.

I brole this apart because I wanted to highlight a couple of thing that you say here.
Is the point of your original post to try and get answers to specific questions as to the purpose and meanings of different parts of the mass? that seems to be what you are indicating here.

Also, I know you are speaking to nebula here, but I curious what you think we should be “Defending” here.

Either, you want to learn about the mass in which case you can ask specific questions, or you just want to toss our comments and see what kinds of responses you get back.

So which is it?

Peace
James

 

[cazayoux]

I started getting much more out of mass when I bought a Sunday missal. Before Sunday, I’d go through the readings for that mass (Old Testament, Psalm, New Testament letter, Gospel reading).
After doing this, the theme of that mass was SO apparent. I could even see how the music selections were all part of the theme.
It has made a huge difference in how I participate in the mass.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

You don;t believe in an apastolic church because you reject the need of the office of apostles and apostles. I know you have a different interpretation of it but in order to be clear, Apastolic is present tense. Since you haven’t had any apostles in 2000 years, it would be clearer to say you believe in office of Apostleship that ended 2000 years ago

hehehe … and what ‘office’ did the apostles hold?
Does the Catholic Church have individuals in these positions?
What are they called?
Bishops!

KJV says this …
Acts 1:20-26
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his **bishopric **let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[nebula]

Nebula, you cannot use that arguement because that isn’t what you believe. Communion is the ordinance. Mass is the sacrament and everything else included. I’m sure there’s spiritual things to learn in Mass because of all the symbology and so forth that i don’t know about yet but i can figure a lot of them out. Like why the priest wears all those robes and so forth. But to actually be taught doctrines or principles, that’s not the purpose and isn’t a part of mass. I’m wondering why you can’t agree with that. You should be defending why thats so.

fal,

Why can’t I use that argument? It’s valid whether or not I am a Mormon. I see now that you’re changing your tune about your OP…

 

[falisrm]

Nebula, you were saying that the Mass doesn’t expound on doctrines or principles of the gospel because the entire thing is an ordinance. But its not, only the communion is. Everything else is revealed tradition and the symbolism involved are what is being taught. Your trying to compare it to a temple endowment which is all an ordinance and that is all there is to it. Catholics chose to make the mass the way it is without lectures on faith or explainations of the gospel. I’m just wondering why you don’t agree with that.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Mass has to be one of the least interlectural meetings in existance. The sermons the priest gives is quite frankly, a joke. Half the time he just begs people to be “good” and to make an attempt to come to church. The words have no substance or value.

The rest of the mass is tradition of sitting down, standing up, sitting down, standing up. It took me 2 times to memorize the entire thing. After the sermon is the “peace be with you” peace be with you". sit down, stand up. It the mass some sort of ordinance of memorized meanings?

The purpose of the mass is not to educate, but to worship as a community. It differs remarkably from a protestant service in that regard. If you want to learn Catholic doctrines, and the reasons/history behind those doctrines, then take adult education classes at your local parish or diocesan center. The education would allow you to get more out of the mass than you apparently do at present.’

I suppose a more direct way to say this is: You don’t get anything out of the mass because you are not preparing properly for it. Perhaps you need to get better prepared?

Peace,
-Robert

 

[graceandglory]

Nebula, you were saying that the Mass doesn’t expound on doctrines or principles of the gospel because the entire thing is an ordinance. But its not, only the communion is. Everything else is revealed tradition and the symbolism involved are what is being taught. Your trying to compare it to a temple endowment which is all an ordinance and that is all there is to it. Catholics chose to make the mass the way it is without lectures on faith or explainations of the gospel. I’m just wondering why you don’t agree with that.

Dear Fal,

Here we have a case of the blind leading the blind. Nebula has already said he/she isn’t Catholic.

The Catholics in the thread explained that the Mass isn’t a lecture, and while we do have a short time for the pastor to reflect on the Scripture readings for the day, that’s not the main point of the Mass.

Revelations 2:7
*** '"Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God***

Do you have another question?

 

[falisrm]

THANK YOU!!! yay, finally we have 2 people that actually said it and is defending their beliefs. I was wondering where you 2 were. I think that pretty much solves my dilemma, thanks everyone for your comments. I learned a lot.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So your saying that the entire mass is the ordinance or sacrament and not just the communion. So that would mean the the Catholic church just piled everything else on to the communion as what, icing? extra credit? None of the catholic ordinance was developed by christ except for the communion.

The endowment wasn’t developed by Christ.

 

[reen12]

Would someone kindly define ‘endowment?’
This is sheer ignorance on my part. I have
never heard the word, as used in a religious
context. Have mercy on my ignorance, and
explain the word, will you please?

I think that there may be a ‘juncture’ point,
that is not being explained with sufficient clarity,
on the way to explaining why the Mass itself is
considered the greatest act of worship possible.

That juncture is the sacraments.
The old definition?

A sacrament is an outward sign - instituted by Christ,
to give grace.

Catholicism teaches a ‘sacramental theology.’

In each sacrament, there is some outward sign,
that signifies that grace is being given.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

It’s not so much that the Word of God takes 2nd place -
because without the word of God, as interpreted by the
Catholic Church, there would* be* no sacraments -
including Mass and communion. [the Eucharist]

The Word furnishes the ‘foundation’ for the sacraments…

-both Christ - as Word [He is the literal foundation]
-and the written Word. [words of Christ]

reen12

 

[nebula]

Would someone kindly define ‘endowment?’
This is sheer ignorance on my part. I have
never heard the word, as used in a religious
context. Have mercy on my ignorance, and
explain the word, will you please?

I think that there may be a ‘juncture’ point,
that is not being explained with sufficient clarity,
on the way to explaining why the Mass itself is
considered the greatest act of worship possible.

That juncture is the sacraments.
The old definition?

A sacrament is an outward sign - instituted by Christ,
to give grace.

Catholicism teaches a ‘sacramental theology.’

In each sacrament, there is some outward sign,
that signifies that grace is being given.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/sacraments.jpg

It’s not so much that the Word of God takes 2nd place -
because without the word of God, as interpreted by the
Catholic Church, there would be no sacraments.
The Word furnishes the ‘foundation’ for the sacraments…
-both Christ - as Word
-and the written Word.

reen12

The endowment ceremony is one of the Mormon ordinances which are: baptism, confirmation, endowment (including the initiatories), sealing/celestial marriage. The last two are conducted in Mormon temples.

 

[nebula]

THANK YOU!!! yay, finally we have 2 people that actually said it and is defending their beliefs. I was wondering where you 2 were. I think that pretty much solves my dilemma, thanks everyone for your comments. I learned a lot.

I’m glad you finally got your answer. It seems like it’s pretty much what I said, but hey, whatever works to get the point across.

 

[reen12]

The endowment ceremony is one of the Mormon ordinances which are: baptism, confirmation, endowment (including the initiatories), sealing/celestial marriage. The last two are conducted in Mormon temples.

Thank you, nebula. Is an ordinance said to ‘give grace?’

Is endowment accepting the faith for oneself - with
initiatories being stages on route to endowment?
Or is my understanding incorrect?

What then is sealing/celestial marriage?
I appreciate your patience and taking the
time to explain. Thank you.

reen12

 

[zerinus]

Would someone kindly define ‘endowment?’
This is sheer ignorance on my part. I have
never heard the word, as used in a religious
context. Have mercy on my ignorance, and
explain the word, will you please? . . .

The LDS Church is very much a “sacramental” church. We recognize all the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, and several more besides. The LDS Church is unique among Christian churches in that we have temple worship, and there are several ordinances of the gospel (same as what you call sacraments) that are performed exclusively in the temples. They include baptisms for the dead, marriage for eternity (as opposed to marriage “till death do you part” of other churches), and what we call the endowment, which is a peculiar LDS ordinance. They are all sacraments, as you understand them, and means of receiving “grace,” if that is how you want to describe them—although we tend to use a different theological vocabulary to describe these things.

zerinus

 

[nebula]

Thank you, nebula. Is an ordinance said to ‘give grace?’

Is endowment accepting the faith for oneself - with
initiatories being stages on route to endowment?
Or is my understanding incorrect?

What then is sealing/celestial marriage?
I appreciate your patience and taking the
time to explain. Thank you.

reen12

reen,

No problem. Ordinances in Mormonism operate differently than sacraments in Catholicism; their primary purpose is in securing a covenant between the person undergoing the ordinances and God. God offers certain blessings to the participant, and the participant promises to do things for God (in this case, through the LDS church). Performing these ordinances is seen as necessary if individuals are to go to the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom and be elegible for exaltation (become gods).

With that background, the endowment ceremony is a ritualistic reenactment of creation, the drama of Adam and Eve being thrust out of the garden of Eden and their returning to the presence of God. Participants in the ceremony see themselvse as Adam and Eve (men and women are separated into the left and right sides of the room). Participants wear ritualistic clothing including white robes and green aprons (akin to the fig leaves Adam and Eve wore after discovering their nakedness). Participants learn key words and hand gestures borrowed from the masons. In the end, particpants pass through the veil, an actual curtain in the temple, to the Celestial room of the temple, representing the celestial kingdom, or highest degree of heaven. Preceding this ceremony is the washing and anointing, in which participants are washed and anointed with oil, blessed, given garments to wear day and night (this is where the ‘Mormon underwear’ comes from) and finally given a new name.

Sealing/celestial marriage occurs within the tmeples in which Mormons worthy enough can be married in the temple and sealed for time and all eternity to be eternal companions. For individauls to be exalted, become gods, they must be eternally married in temples.

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[zaffiroborant]

THANK YOU!!! yay, finally we have 2 people that actually said it and is defending their beliefs. I was wondering where you 2 were. I think that pretty much solves my dilemma, thanks everyone for your comments. I learned a lot.

FINALLY???

You were answered in the first 4 pages of this thread 5 times!

Post 22

You go to Mass to be a witness at a ritual, and to partake of Communion.

It’s not a tutorial.

post 47

The primary purpose of Mass is not to “learn.” The primary purpose of Mass is to worship.

post 50

People always log off when I want to post…

**The Mass is not a school room. ** That is what Catechism is for. People learn about the prayers and the theology and the meaning of the Mass and then witness this and experience this during the Mass.

As was said earlier…the Mass is about us worshipping God, not about what we are getting out of it. Granted…for our spiritual journey it would be nice to have a good homily which expounds upon the Scripture readings and to have more people participating which makes it feel more unified.

post 52

falisrm

1-Mass is not Sunday school or priesthood meeting, never has been, never will be, so stop trying to make it something it is not

2-go to RCIA, that is where you will learn about Catholic doctrines

3-try a different parish, 3 or 4 if you like

4-Mormonism has redefined just about every basic Christian word, starting with the word “God”. You cannot use your Mormon definitions to understand Christianity

post 53

While I agree that the aim of the Mass is not instruction in the faith, I feel short changed if the homily does not either give me real food for thought or at least introduce me to some new aspect of the gospel reading, make me think about my interpretation of the reading and/or how I should change my behaviour or attitude as a result.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you, nebula. Is an ordinance said to ‘give grace?’

See my previous post.

Is endowment accepting the faith for oneself - with initiatories being stages on route to endowment? Or is my understanding incorrect?

The “initiatories” are a separate ordinance, where you are washed (ceremonially, not literally) and anointed with oil, and certain blessings are pronounced upon you.

The endowment is a sacred ordinance for us, which we do not describe in detail outside of the temple. This article is tells you as much about it that we are willing to publicly discuss:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=707672712fddb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

What then is sealing/celestial marriage? I appreciate your atience and taking the time to explain. Thank you.

We believe that marriage was intended by God to be eternal, and when performed by the proper priesthood authority it is solemnised for eternity. That is what we sometimes refer to as “celestial marriage,” “eternal marriage,” or “temple marriage,” because it is performed in the temples. If you are already married when you join our Church, then you don’t need to be “remarried”. You can go to the temple and have your marriage “sealed” for eternity by the same priesthood authority, which means that it is made eternal as though you were married for eternity. “Sealing” can also be performed on behalf of the deceased. Baptism is not the only ordinance that we perform for the dead. We perform all the ordinances of the gospel on behalf of the dead, including having their marriages sealed for eternity.

zerinus

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Falisrm - I don’t believe that you have attended Catholic Mass. Anyway, why would you if you don’t learn anything or get anything out of it? Actually I learn a lot from the readings and the Homily. The Priest explains the readings to us, I ALWAYS learn something in EVERY Mass I attend. Also, I love the prayers, the songs the communion, the ceremony. It means everything to me. It’s beautiful and holy and true. Don’t be sneering at the Catholic Church. Judge not lest ye be judged!! You will be measured by your own rod.

 

[reen12]

reen,

No problem. Ordinances in Mormonism operate differently than sacraments in Catholicism; their primary purpose is in securing a covenant between the person undergoing the ordinances and God. God offers certain blessings to the participant, and the participant promises to do things for God (in this case, through the LDS church). Performing these ordinances is seen as necessary if individuals are to go to the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom and be elegible for exaltation (become gods).

With that background, the endowment ceremony is a ritualistic reenactment of creation, the drama of Adam and Eve being thrust out of the garden of Eden and their returning to the presence of God. Participants in the ceremony see themselvse as Adam and Eve (men and women are separated into the left and right sides of the room). Participants wear ritualistic clothing including white robes and green aprons (akin to the fig leaves Adam and Eve wore after discovering their nakedness). Participants learn key words and hand gestures borrowed from the masons. In the end, particpants pass through the veil, an actual curtain in the temple, to the Celestial room of the temple, representing the celestial kingdom, or highest degree of heaven. Preceding this ceremony is the washing and anointing, in which participants are washed and anointed with oil, blessed, given garments to wear day and night (this is where the ‘Mormon underwear’ comes from) and finally given a new name.

Sealing/celestial marriage occurs within the tmeples in which Mormons worthy enough can be married in the temple and sealed for time and all eternity to be eternal companions. For individauls to be exalted, become gods, they must be eternally married in temples.

I hope that answers your questions.

Good heavens, nebula. That was one of the clearest,
most concise presentations that I have ever encountered.
Thank you very much, for taking the time to explain.

I often note threads begun by a poster who is of the Mormon faith.
Now at least I have some understanding of Mormon belief and practice. [LDS.]
I nearly keeled over, when I read your post.
It is so rare that I see concision walking hand in hand with
absolute clarity of expression.

I think in terms of ‘grace,’ because I was educated in terms of a sacramental system -
where a sacrament is defined as an ‘outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace.’

If you have the patience and the time, would you please explain why there is baptism after death?

Thank you for your kindness, nebula,

reen