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Duesenberg
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I suspect the OF Mass in the vernacular (like the Eastern Divine Liturgies) is a great deal more like the Masses that predated today’s EF Mass.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Nix. The Catholic Church does not agree with you on that one.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I agree in the west, that we should use more Latin, even when the Mass is said in the vernacular, I do not agree that there’s anything wrong with saying the mass completely in the vernacular. I said multiple times, I prefer Byzantine liturgy to the Latin Mass. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
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Vadne
Guest
Those who want to deny that the very rubrics of the Novus Ordo permit ad libbing should go read the Ordo Missae. They will discover before too long the first (of several) times the priest is invited to ad lib.
But this thread contains perhaps the most offensive critique of Latin, namely that Latin allegedly encourages skipping prayers. That’s really contemptuous of the Latin liturgical tradition, and frankly the sort of criticism you’d have expected from 16th century Protestant revolters.
But this thread contains perhaps the most offensive critique of Latin, namely that Latin allegedly encourages skipping prayers. That’s really contemptuous of the Latin liturgical tradition, and frankly the sort of criticism you’d have expected from 16th century Protestant revolters.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Your assertion is just plain silly. The OF Mass allows options – quite an elegant design in my opinion. It does not allow the celebrant to “ad lib.” That’s patently false.
You bet it does! If you think the way the EF Mass is celebrated today (in microscopically tiny numbers) is representative of how it was celebrated back in the old days when Msgr. could burn though the Sunday low Mass in 17 minutes, then you’re naive about how things used to be when today’s EF was the OF Mass.
Our late Byzantine Catholic priest began as a Latin Rite priest in the 1950s. When some of us bought our own green (rather than turquoise) books, we learned that he had been skipping 3-4 entire pages or prayers. Sometimes those habits are tough to leave behind.
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Vadne
Guest
The question of “how the Mass is celebrated” is irrelevant to the discussion. There are disastrously bad liturgies no matter the Rite or Usage or Use. That said, the FACT remains, the Novus Ordo Missae permits ad libbing at various points. You can refuse to admit the reality all you want, but it’s there plain as day in the rubrics.
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Saxum
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Calling a FACT a ‘conspiracy theory’ doesn’t make the FACT any less true. The only ‘silliness’ on this thread is the blatant attempt to whitewash history.
You’re wrong on this point. Here’s why:
- John XXIII issued Veterum Sapientia just before Vatican II mandating the use of Latin
- The Vatican II document on the Liturgy called for the retention of Latin
- All official promulgations of the Liturgy are in Latin
- Latin is the official language of the Roman Rite
- All Latin Rite seminarians are legally required to be fluent in Latin
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stpurl
Guest
So you are stating that one priest you knew skipped prayers, that one Monsignor (please give us a name) said a low Mass in 17 minutes, and projecting that onto every Catholic priest and parish of the 1950s? Not to mention the previous 4 centuries before that throughout the entire Catholic world? And for 1500 years before that in various rites?
I know you’ve seen my posts about the liturgical abuses that I have experienced and by recently I mean last week.
Exactly how are these not to be considered as indicting the OF (on the basis of 'my experience) in the same way that your remembered experience of apparently some 60 years ago is an indictment of the entire EF)?
IOW, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
If the reasons for abuse in either form are priestly and/or congregational disobedience, then the forms themselves are not problematic in any way.
The EF was no more inherently flawed than the OF is today. . .meaning, any ‘flaws’ are due to some person(s) overt or covert actions.
You apparently believe that a 17 minute Mass ‘mumbled’ is more troublesome to the average parishioner than really ad libbed prayers, skipping the Creed, Gloria, penitential rite, and substituting hymns and even secular songs for readings, responsorial psalms, and acclamations (to name ONLY those actions deliberately chosen by a priest, as the 17 minute mumbled Mass is ONLY done by a priest).
I disagree.
I know you’ve seen my posts about the liturgical abuses that I have experienced and by recently I mean last week.
Exactly how are these not to be considered as indicting the OF (on the basis of 'my experience) in the same way that your remembered experience of apparently some 60 years ago is an indictment of the entire EF)?
IOW, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
If the reasons for abuse in either form are priestly and/or congregational disobedience, then the forms themselves are not problematic in any way.
The EF was no more inherently flawed than the OF is today. . .meaning, any ‘flaws’ are due to some person(s) overt or covert actions.
You apparently believe that a 17 minute Mass ‘mumbled’ is more troublesome to the average parishioner than really ad libbed prayers, skipping the Creed, Gloria, penitential rite, and substituting hymns and even secular songs for readings, responsorial psalms, and acclamations (to name ONLY those actions deliberately chosen by a priest, as the 17 minute mumbled Mass is ONLY done by a priest).
I disagree.
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Mr_Freeze
Guest
I stand corrected. Those are awesome! They all look like Higgins on Magnum P.I.
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KS_Housewife
Guest
(gotta go with the emoji on this one)
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ChunkMonk
Guest
I have no hostility for the OF but I do think it is probably not as useful for conversion and I kind of wish it would go away.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Are you serious? Really? The number of “traditional” Catholic that are attracted to the Church due to the EF Mass is minuscule in the greater scheme of things.
Don’t hold your breath because the OF Mass isn’t going anywhere.
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Duesenberg
Guest
The OF Mass is rooted every bit as deeply in Catholicism as is the EF Mass. Possibly even deeper given it OF status.
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R_H_Benson
Guest
Intrinsically, yes, because it is a valid Mass. Extrinsically, no, because it is rife with novelty and innovation - two things which directly contradict the Catholic understanding of tradition.
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Duesenberg
Guest
You are wrong. The OF Mass is every bit as deeply rooted (both “intrinsically” AND “extrinsically” as the EF Mass. Amazing you could actually believe something that runs so foreign to what the Church actually teaches!
I challenge you to write to your ordinary seeking his confirmation of your belief that the EF Mass is more extrinsically deeply rooted in Catholicism that the OF Mass.
If would be fascinating to read his response.
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Xantippe
Guest
I was at the EF Mass last night. There were probably 100 people there. It was actually rather nice for our family, as it’s normally hard to find a spot where we can all squeeze in at an OF Mass, but there’s lots of space at the EF Mass.
I think people who are EF enthusiasts tend to overestimate the draw that the EF has.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
I think, especially in this day when neomysticism and neopaganism are so prevalent, the mystery of the Extraordinary Form would shock a lot of these people and intrigue them.
All things change. I think the OF will eventually become more and more influenced by the EF and that would probably be a good thing.
I don’t know if I would call myself an EF enthusiast, since I’ve never attended one in my life. But I think part of the problem with attendance is probably due to with the extreme inaccessibility of EF for most of us.
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Xantippe
Guest
In our area, we’ve had the EF available for years. It has changed parishes (the old home parish switched over to a Spanish Mass during that time slot and the EF moved to the college chaplaincy instead), but there is a loyal core of EF attenders–I see more or less the same people every time I go. We attend periodically (one of our kids sometimes asks), and attendance ranges from 100-200 people. I have never seen more than that. People are not breaking down the doors for the EF. And we have a very favorable environment for the EF, as it’s a good-sized college community.
I suspect most US parishes could get more mileage out of an additional Spanish Mass.
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ChunkMonk
Guest
That’s too bad. Oh well, if they don’t want it they don’t want it. I wish those of us who do want it had the option.
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