I am not convinced this Scripture is the magic prooftext that will sink the nail into the other guys coffin so deeply that the corpse can’t escape.
Yeah I saw that thread. I went back and read the opening posts very carefully about three times.
Bah…that isn’t important. Including the Greek is important only in understanding why the English translations we have are worded the way they are. More important are the arguments and theology that flow from the Greek, which I am sure you are just fine at!Yeah I saw that thread. I went back and read the opening posts very carefully about three times.
Remember I have zero theological training much less any training in Greek or Hebrew. Although I think I understand what you are saying, it is obvious that you are about 56 grade levels ahead of me in this stuff.
If Catholic teaching on the Eucharist is true, then it is of greatest importance. We believe that the Eucharist is really, truly, substantially the Body and Blood of Christ, worthy of adoration, the highest form of worship reserved for God Himself.
Equally important is the reverse situation. If the Real Presence IS true, then Protestants took a critical dogma held for over 1500 years and simply threw it away. If they’re wrong on something this big, then surely many other of their claims and interpretations have to become suspect as well.
Understood.
OK. But with simply an approach of it as the body and blood of Jesus, you should have the same reverence. At least I would think.
I don’t think this follows. I would never presume to speak for God to assume how He would view it in the event you are wrong.
When you review the bread of Life discourse, (Jn 6) and the Last supper narritivesin the Gospels, and In the sense we’re using communion, we only do this because it’s a direct command of Jesus to the Church He established. And particularly to the apostles who Jesus annoints for this purpose of celebrating and consecrating the Eucharist. “do this” and not something else, nor in anyother way, in memory of me. And we do it His way.
This is off topic, but I have often wondered on many issues that divide us whether you are a little over the top in one direction while we are over the top in another direction. And the truth is somewhere in the middle.
And what exactly is His way? Where has He revealed to us what His way is?
Keep in mind that in most circumstances, the Catholic Church will not dogmatize a position unless it is something critical to the faith and held since the earliest days of the church that comes under attack. That is why you see a huge amount of dogmas arising during the Protestant Reformation. There was simply no NEED to dogmatize it before then, because virtually EVERYONE held to that opinion. In the case of Communion, ALL the historical evidence suggests that the Real Presence was taught in an unbroken line all the way back to the Apostles. Most of the early heresies attacked this belief, and the whole of Christendom felt strongly enough to call councils deriding this idea as utterly unchristian. Now, most of these people were only one or two generations from the Apostles. If I’m struggling on how to interpret a particular position of the Church, the surviving accounts of the Early Church Fathers would be a very good source for indicating what the original intent was.
I, too, like your approach because we must trust Jesus’s words even when we don’t understand how it happens.
Not to change the subject (much) but - - -
Rolltide has already given a good answer to this but I will just add that I think we wind up making things more complicated because of one word…Why?
His way is revealed through the traditions and teachings of Holy Mother Church - tracable to the most ancient of times in both the Roman Rite and the Eastern Orthodox Rite of the Church.
that is the proper attitude to adopt until such time as your faith on this matter is fully informed. it matters because it is Truth, and knowing and understanding Truth is the reason humans have been endowed with intellect and mental faculties above those of the animals. It matters because it is Love, and understanding and accepting with width and breadth and depth of Christ’s love is the reason humans have been endowed with emotions, intellect, will, memory and faculties of the mind and heart.
He instituted His Church, His sacraments, & His priesthood. No valid priesthood, no valid Eucharist.
Hi Diane:I, too, like your approach because we must trust Jesus’s words even when we don’t understand how it happens.
However, I think it matters because it is a matter of faith. We believe that it is the Body and Blood of Christ even if we don’t understand how it happens, because Christ told us so, and he would not try to mislead us. However, many people come to God with an approach like yours, and that is their starting point. They don’t know the means or if they can prove it, but they leave it all up to God.
I think with many Protestants, however, the real reason what the Catholic Church teaches matters is because they see the Catholic teaching as idolatry. They see it as worshiping plain bread and wine. Besides Communion, we have Exposition, Eucharist Adoration, and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. At these times especially, there is great reverence given to the Eucharist: procession, prayers, special attire for the priest, songs, and long periods of silence with people on their knees before the elaborate decorated monstrance, which houses and displays the Body of Christ. In many churches, there is 24 hour adoration with people praying before the Eucharist night and day, without Christ ever left alone. There are quite a few rules of canon law regarding how the Eucharist should be kept and adored, emphasizing the fact that it truly is Jesus. This reverence is quite special, beautiful, and important to many Catholics; this love for the Eucharist could not be there without people knowing in their heart that it truly is Jesus.
To many non-Catholics, this is seen as idolatry, fruitless rituals and “traditions of men” that lead people away from Christian prayer. Some see it as silly superstition and even cult-ish.
I have never seen reverence like I have when I’ve been to large gatherings for Eucharistic Adoration. Just spending an hour with Jesus in Adoration at the chapel in town is certainly important to me, and it’s one of the reasons I love my faith. It’s not just about Communion, it’s about Christ being physically here, present on Earth for us to visit. I don’t know how it happens but I know He’s there.
So I went kind of off the topic of Communion and I hope I didn’t confuse you with crazy Catholic lingo…
Hi: