Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word

[Marocchino]

The reason is that Orthodox Christians are secure in their belief system. They have no need to defend themselves and their doctrines as others do, as the truth needs no defence.

But you are offering a defence right now.

The word, “Orthodox,” derived from Greek, means, “right” or “truth,” and “belief.”

This is why I hesitate to call your faith Orthodox - if I believed it to be the “true” or “right” belief, I would convert to Orthodoxy. I call it Orthodox merely out of respect for those who refer to themselves as such. But as St. Paul says, let us not quarrel over words.

It is indeed unfortunate that a schism occurred and I wish that all Christians were united in the one true Church, which I believe is the Catholic Church. I do not say this out of arrogance but out of sincerity, for if I did not sincerely believe my religion to be true I would not spend time practicing and defending it.

Peace be with you.

 

[Marocchino]

As for Birth control, yes it is a major issue, but that is pretty much the ONLY issue you will find disagreement among other Orthodox on.

There are also theological differences:

catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9601fea2.asp:

Arians turned to the Goths and Lombards, who remained Arian for centuries. Nestorians turned to the Eastern Syrians. The Monophysites turned to the south and east and became the national religion of Egypt, Ethiopia, and Armenia.

 

[Formosus]

The article then is irrelevant because right now we are discussing the (what are commonly called )Eastern Orthodox.

Those other churches you listed broke off of the church before the East/west schism occured so they are just as much an example of lack of unity of faith among the Catholics as they are among the Eastern Orthodox.

Also, the nestorians of the middle east were never really nestorian as scholorship will show, and the monophysites never took hold in those regions because they were miaphysistes and not monophysiste. The article is not an accurate one.

And, as for the Arians. The Goths and Lombards were both in Western Europe so it would seem that shows a disunity of faith among early Western Christians not eastern ones .

 

[Marocchino]

Those other churches you listed broke off of the church before the East/west schism occured so they are just as much an example of lack of unity of faith among the Catholics as they are among the Eastern Orthodox.

If the churches listed in the article broke off, they were no longer Catholic. So this does not show a lack of unity in the Catholic Church.

Thank you for offering me an alternative perspective on the other claims in this article.

 

[franklinf]

I have felt drawn, off and on, to Orthodoxy for several years, because I felt there was a quality there I was missing as a western Catholic. Today, it suddenly came to me what the quality was: Sublimity. There is a sublimity in Orthodoxy, especially in doctrine and worship, that I don’t sense in western Catholicism… And it seems to me the True Faith should be Sublime.

Why orthodoxy and not Eastern Catholicism? If it is the “sublimity” of the Eastern rite you are looking for, why switch to the Orthodox, who don’t have the full deposit of truth? You can have the sublimity of the Eastern rite while still holding to the dogmas of the Catholic Church, such as the authority of the pope. I guess I am confused why you would give up union with Rome when there are Eastern Catholic Churches who have the Divine Liturgy and the elements of the Eastern rite. And, like someone else said, have you been to a TLM High Mass?

 

[Formosus]

If the churches listed in the article broke off, they were no longer Catholic. So this does not show a lack of unity in the Catholic Church.

Thank you for offering me an alternative perspective on the other claims in this article.

Yes but they would not be Orthodox either which your point seemed to be, if I am not mistaken, that you beleived them to be and were using them as an example of disunity of faith among Orthodox.

 

[Marocchino]

Yes but they would not be Orthodox either which your point seemed to be, if I am not mistaken, that you beleived them to be and were using them as an example of disunity of faith among Orthodox.

Yes, I was mistaken. I thought they were Orthodox. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Luke65]

It is a church demonstrating patience and understanding, but most of all, it demonstrates love as Christ Himself demonstrated. I find that to be the missing element in some other faiths, which often seem to focus on control, penance, punishment, and rules, as reflected time and again in the posts of others on this forum.

We are sheep; we follow the shepherd. And our Lord chose Peter and only Peter to shepherd His flock:

“Shepherd My sheep.” (John 21:16 NASB)

Which is figurative for “Rule my people”. This is God’s rule, not the rule of any man, except the Son of Man. The state of the Catholic Church or of many Catholics is irrelevant, especially considering God told us it would be this way. This is why He promised us: “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” - so that we who put our trust in His Word, and do not lean on our own understanding, can know there will never be any reason to separate ourselves from His shepherd on earth. Believe so that you may understand.:yup:

 

[Harpazo]

Why orthodoxy and not Eastern Catholicism? If it is the “sublimity” of the Eastern rite you are looking for, why switch to the Orthodox, who don’t have the full deposit of truth? You can have the sublimity of the Eastern rite while still holding to the dogmas of the Catholic Church, such as the authority of the pope. I guess I am confused why you would give up union with Rome when there are Eastern Catholic Churches who have the Divine Liturgy and the elements of the Eastern rite. And, like someone else said, have you been to a TLM High Mass?

Shlomo,

This is exactly it. They have the deposit of faith from the Apostles that has remained unchanged. It remains, from what I have seen, untainted. They hold the same faith as before the schism, and all without being “under the Pope.” At least that is the claim being put forth by them.

I’m unsure of why the Orthodox keep being referred to as schismatics since Rome has been calling them a “sister church” since Vatican II.

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Marocchino]

I’m unsure of why the Orthodox keep being referred to as schismatics since Rome has been calling them a “sister church” since Vatican II.

cbc.ca/world/story/2007/07/10/vatican-church.html:

The Vatican issued a document Tuesday restating its belief that the Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

The 16-page document was prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a doctrinal watchdog that Pope Benedict used to head.

Pope Benedict XVI was elected Pope in April 2005.
(Plinio Lepri/Associated Press) Formulated as five questions and answers, the document is titled “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church.”

It says although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are defective because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

“It follows that these separated churches and communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation,” it said (Emphasis mine)

.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Schism:

Schism (from the Greek schisma, rent, division) is, in the language of theology and canon law, the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity, i.e. either the act by which one of the faithful severs as far as in him lies the ties which bind him to the social organization of the Church and make him a member of the mystical body of Christ, or the state of dissociation or separation which is the result of that act (Emphasis mine).

 

[Triciacat]

We are sheep; we follow the shepherd. And our Lord chose Peter and only Peter to shepherd His flock:

“Shepherd My sheep.” (John 21:16 NASB)

He was central in the spread of the early church, but but we need to put this quote in the proper context: "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, **having been built **upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone…(Ephesians 2:19,20)

Peter himself writes, **"Therefore, I exhort the ****elders among you, as your fellow elder **and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you…(1 Peter 5: 1,2)

Which is figurative for “Rule my people”. This is God’s rule, not the rule of any man, except the Son of Man. The state of the Catholic Church or of many Catholics is irrelevant, especially considering God told us it would be this way. This is why He promised us: “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” - so that we who put our trust in His Word, and do not lean on our own understanding …we receive understanding through the Holy Spirit after prayerfully considering what Scripture is trying to tell us! This is how we separate the “wheat from the chaff”…“Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.” (2 Timothy:7)]

 

[Triciacat]

We are sheep; we follow the shepherd. And our Lord chose Peter and only Peter to shepherd His flock:

“Shepherd My sheep.” (John 21:16 NASB)

Which is figurative for “Rule my people”. This is God’s rule, not the rule of any man, except the Son of Man. The state of the Catholic Church or of many Catholics is irrelevant, especially considering God told us it would be this way. This is why He promised us: “the Gates of Hell will not prevail” - so that we who put our trust in His Word, and do not lean on our own understanding, can know there will never be any reason to separate ourselves from His shepherd on earth. Believe so that you may understand.:yup:

Glory To Jesus Christ!
May He Be Glorified Always!

Peter was central in the spread of the early church, but we need to put this quote in the proper context: "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the corner stone…(Ephisians 2:19,20)

Peter, himself, writes, **“Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder **and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you…”(1 Peter 5:1,2)

We receive understanding through the Holy Spirit after prayerfully considering what Scripture is trying to tell us! This is how we separate the “wheat from the chaff”…“Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.” (2 Timothy 2:7) "But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Timothy 1:5)

So there you have it. The goal of instruction is love.

 

[Triciacat]

But you are offering a defence right now. I meant that I had no intention of reiterating Orthodox canons.

This is why I hesitate to call your faith Orthodox - if I believed it to be the “true” or “right” belief, I would convert to Orthodoxy. I call it Orthodox merely out of respect for those who refer to themselves as such. But as St. Paul says, let us not quarrel over words. In the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom, Orthodox Christians pray for "one, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church–“Catholic” meaning “Universal”. Same applies here, I guess

It is indeed unfortunate that a schism occurred and I wish that all Christians were united in the one true Church, which I believe is the Catholic Church. I do not say this out of arrogance but out of sincerity, for if I did not sincerely believe my religion to be true I would not spend time practicing and defending it. The Holy Spirit is at work among the faithful of many churches, in those who earnestly seek the truth and do His work. Orthodox Christians continually pray “for peace in the whole world, for the welfare of the holy churches of God and for the union of all.”

Peace be with you. And also with you.

 

[Luke65]

Glory To Jesus Christ!
May He Be Glorified Always!

Peter was central in the spread of the early church, but we need to put this quote in the proper context: "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the corner stone…(Ephisians 2:19,20)

Peter, himself, writes, **“Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder **and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you…”(1 Peter 5:1,2)

We receive understanding through the Holy Spirit after prayerfully considering what Scripture is trying to tell us! This is how we separate the “wheat from the chaff”…“Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.” (2 Timothy 2:7) "But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Timothy 1:5)

So there you have it. The goal of instruction is love.

 

[w_stewart]

Basically, your definition of unity is differeent from that of the Church. And your argument is very protestant in the truest sense of the word.

The thing is though, how much unity of faith can there be among the Catholic Church if the Pope says one thing, and the vast majority of the faithful do not beleive it. Or an even worse example , religious liberty and other such things found in the Syllabus of Errors of Bl. Pius IX. Its not as clear cut as one would like to beleive as far as Pope’s faith=the faith of the beleivers.

Catechism states:

“The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity” (UR 2)

813 The Church is one because of her source: “the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit.”[259] The Church is one because of her founder: for “the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body.”[260] The Church is one because of her “soul”: “It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity.”[261] Unity is of the essence of the Church:

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.”[262]

814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. “Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions.”[263] The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to “maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”[264]

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity “binds everything together in perfect harmony.”[265] But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:

• profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
  -common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
• apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.[266]

816 “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it… This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.”[267]

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”[268]

 

[O.S.Luke]

It sounds like the old argument will be the foundational one: who really left the “real” Church? The RC’s, or the Orthodox?

Arguments for both sides are compelling. It would be hard to argue, though, where tradition and form are concerned, the Orthodox have probably “kept” more to the original.

Whether that is good or bad is also up for debate.

 

[dans0622]

All I would say is “the grass is always greener on the other side.” The more we study any Church, in the ideal, the better it will look. In “real life,” though, the ideal is never present. That’s original sin in action. Wherever there are people, there is sin and division.

As far as “sumblimity” (if that’s a word), yes, certain spiritualities in the Catholic Church can seem rather analytical, calculating, etc. If you find that to be the case, there are plenty of other spiritualities that are mysterious, awesome, etc. The main point is that God, in the Church, has provided us with the freedom to pursue our own spirituality. With so much history and so many members, there is an amazing variety in the Catholic Church.

Dan

 

[tomarin]

There is a sublimity in Orthodoxy, especially in doctrine and worship, that I don’t sense in western Catholicism… And it seems to me the True Faith should be Sublime.

I feel the same way about the Tridentine Latin Mass.

 

[Formosus]

Basically, your definition of unity is differeent from that of the Church. And your argument is very protestant in the truest sense of the word.

Catechism states:

Explain how my statement is protestant.

For one, I am not talking about the doctrine on the oneness of the Church. I am talking about the practical implications of that doctrine. On a practical level, all I am saying, is that one can not criticize the Orthodox for lacking a unity of faith when their faith is One faith throughout their communion despite lacking a Pope and despite their nationalism. Considering that Orthodox faithful are much less likely to dissent from Church teaching vs. Catholic faithful which as we all know there are many Catholics who dissent from Church teachings. You can’t just lable what I am saying is protestant and quote the catechism on an issue that is not even being discussed.

 

[Nicholas82]

But you are offering a defence right now.

This is why I hesitate to call your faith Orthodox - if I believed it to be the “true” or “right” belief, I would convert to Orthodoxy. I call it Orthodox merely out of respect for those who refer to themselves as such. But as St. Paul says, let us not quarrel over words.

It is indeed unfortunate that a schism occurred and I wish that all Christians were united in the one true Church, which I believe is the Catholic Church. I do not say this out of arrogance but out of sincerity, for if I did not sincerely believe my religion to be true I would not spend time practicing and defending it.

Peace be with you.

I feel hesitant to call your church ‘Catholic’ but I’m amicable enough not to address your church in quotations. Oh well…