Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word

[Melchior]

“For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.” (Matthew 7:14)

“No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” (Luke 11:33)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Your misapplication of this verse to justify keeping what is a supposedly the One, True Church a hidden little ethnic club was all too typical of my experience among the Orthodox, particulalry the cradle Orthodox. I remember one woman basically telling me that Orthodoxy is too precious to share and that it should be hard to find. Which of course is the antithesis of the Gospel. This lack of universality is a screaming testimonial that Orthodoxy does not bear an essentially mark of being exclusively the one, true church.

 

[Melchior]

How so?

Context:

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Nothing in there about a Church hoarding the truth for it’s small group of current members and ignoring the great commission that allows all men to hear the truth and thus find the narrow way. There was however, plenty about good and bad fruit and the golden rule.

 

[Triciacat]

“No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” (Luke 11:33)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Your misapplication of this verse to justify keeping what is a supposedly the One, True Church a hidden little ethnic club was all too typical of my experience among the Orthodox, particulalry the cradle Orthodox. Actually, that was **your **interpretation of my reason for quoting the verse, which seems colored by your past experiences with the Orthodox Church. The verse states that the way to life is narrow. He who does the will of The Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21) I remember one woman basically telling me that Orthodoxy is too precious to share and that it should be hard to find. So you’re basing your entire conception of the Orthodox Church upon one women’s comment? Which of course is the antithesis of the Gospel. Agreed! This lack of universality is a screaming testimonial that Orthodoxy does not bear an essentially mark of being exclusively the one, true church.In fact, all Orthodox churches throughout the world ascribe to the same, unchanging doctrine.

 

[Triciacat]

Nothing in there about a Church hoarding the truth for it’s small group of current members and ignoring the great commission that allows all men to hear the truth and thus find the narrow way. There was however, plenty about good and bad fruit and the golden rule.

The verses before and after Matthew 7:14 have other teachings within them as well. Please refer to Post #101 for additional comments.

What do you mean that the Orthodox Church “hoards” the truth?

 

[Melchior]

Triciacat:
*Your misapplication of this verse to justify keeping what is a supposedly the One, True Church a hidden little ethnic club was all too typical of my experience among the Orthodox, particulalry the cradle Orthodox. Actually, that was your interpretation of my reason for quoting the verse, which seems colored by your past experiences with the Orthodox Church. The verse states that the way to life is narrow. He who does the will of The Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

Fair enough. But you did not explain yourself and your quote seemed typical of my past (well over a decade) and ongoing experience with the Orthodox in general. Of course I know several wonderful Orthodox Christians as well.

I remember one woman basically telling me that Orthodoxy is too precious to share and that it should be hard to find. So you’re basing your entire conception of the Orthodox Church upon one women’s comment?

No. That was an example that pklys out in the real world where the Orthodox Churches tend to be inward focues on ethnic communities and comparatively lacking in Evangelism compared to nearly all other (non-liberal) Christians, not just Catholics.

Which of course is the antithesis of the Gospel. Agreed! This lack of universality is a screaming testimonial that Orthodoxy does not bear an essentially mark of being exclusively the one, true church.In fact, all Orthodox churches throughout the world ascribe to the same, unchanging doctrine.

As do Catholics and any other particular denomination. But the Orthodox have a plenty of internal dissention and nominalism. In fact it is Orthodox countries that have the highest abortion rates and loose sexual mores. So uniformity of faith means little if the faithful are not faithful. Of course that is not to say Catholics are immune from this problem.

I will also say that Orthodox jurisdictional fighting, violation of your own canonical rules about jurisdictions in America and having jurisdictions that will not commune with others jurisdictions reveals that unity in doctrine (though that is arguable regarding morality and other particular issues) means very little if love for your own brethren and separated brethren is lacking. And let’s face it, no one holds a grudge like the Orthodox. Forgiveness is not one of Orthodoxy’s strong points and that was the nail in the coffin for me.*

 

[Melchior]

What do you mean that the Orthodox Church “hoards” the truth?

“No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” (Luke 11:33)

I meant that one cannot brag about holding the truth, a truth that demands evangelism, if it does not reach out to unbelievers. I know of no church that claims exclusivity, that does less to make people aware of their beliefs or that they even exist. This is not what Christ commanded in the great commission.

I am sorry if I don’t pull my punches but Orthodoxy did not deliver what it’s apologists promised. It did not deliver it to me as an almost convert and it did not deliver it to my wife who was a cradle Orthodox, nor many other people I know who did convert and were greatly wounded for it. The vast majority of regular church goers in the Orthodox church that I know, and am related to, live completely unchristian lives. The vast majority of Catholics (and Protestants for that matter) that do go to church every Sunday are not nearly as secular and liberal. Of course the non or rare church goers in those churches are more similar to the majority of “practicing” Orthodox I know. If we are to judge a communion by it’s fruits, then Orthodox Churches are the last on my list. And they were once the first.

That is not meant as a statement about you or anyone else on here. Just my experience and observations over many years. I do know fine Orthodox Christians. I could see if your interpreation of that verse were in the context of wheat and tares with the Church. But a church that old that has made such a small impact compared to the Catholic Church does meet the test of universality. Of course I believe it is a true Church. Just not the true Church. And if I had only the choice of Orthodoxy and Protestantism I would certainly be Orthodox.

 

[prodromos]

The Church has both wheat and tares. Do we judge the Church by the tares?

John

 

[eichenb2]

The major think that has always hindered me from going Orthodox is the overwhelmingly ethnic identity of the different churches with orthodoxy. It appears, in my opinion, to lack the universality of the Catholic Church. This may be my own misunderstanding, though.

 

[Ignatius]

I have felt drawn, off and on, to Orthodoxy for several years, because I felt there was a quality there I was missing as a western Catholic. Today, it suddenly came to me what the quality was: Sublimity. There is a sublimity in Orthodoxy, especially in doctrine and worship, that I don’t sense in western Catholicism… And it seems to me the True Faith should be Sublime.

So, you’ve never attended Divine Liturgy in one of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches?

 

[eichenb2]

No, I have not. Are you saying that the Mass is similar to Orthodox church Mass?

 

[Alethiaphile]

So, you’ve never attended Divine Liturgy in one of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches?

Yes, I have. The liturgy there can be beautiful as well, but in my experience it’s not backed up by doctrine. It’s a beautiful liturgy, sitting in isolation from everything else. I haven’t felt that I was getting Orthodoxy in its fullness there.

 

[Alethiaphile]

The major think that has always hindered me from going Orthodox is the overwhelmingly ethnic identity of the different churches with orthodoxy. It appears, in my opinion, to lack the universality of the Catholic Church. This may be my own misunderstanding, though.

That is a big stumbling block; I have stumbled over that also. The Orthodox regard their catholicity as one of doctrine; it is true for all men, everywhere, at all times.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yes, I have. The liturgy there can be beautiful as well,** but in my experience it’s not backed up by doctrine**. It’s a beautiful liturgy, sitting in isolation from everything else. I haven’t felt that I was getting Orthodoxy in its fullness there.

blanket statment. Explain.

 

[samcarter14]

No, I have not. Are you saying that the Mass is similar to Orthodox church Mass?

The service is called the Divine Liturgy in both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches; “Mass” is a term that came from Latin originally.

Yes, the Divine Liturgy that is said in the Eastern Catholic Churches is very similar, if not identical, to that said in Orthodox churches. I have attended both–the Orthodox was in the OCA jurisdiction, and I now attend a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church, and the Liturgy is the same, with the exception of a little Slavonic added in the Catholic Liturgy.

 

[wynd]

Yes, the Divine Liturgy that is said in the Eastern Catholic Churches is very similar, if not identical, to that said in Orthodox churches. I have attended both–the Orthodox was in the OCA jurisdiction, and I now attend a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church, and the Liturgy is the same, with the exception of a little Slavonic added in the Catholic Liturgy.

Wait, I thought the Orthodox were the more ethnic ones…

 

[jam070406]

The Church has both wheat and tares. Do we judge the Church by the tares?

John

Were you not the one, in another thread, who compared the entire spreading of the gospel by Catholicism as that of the Spanish conquistadors, and also comparing it to that of the spreading of Islam by Muslims?

Perhaps you should remove the beam from your own eye.

 

[Melchior]

The Church has both wheat and tares. Do we judge the Church by the tares?

John

Of course not. That was the point I was trying to make. But there is also the organizational and local fruit. I just don’t see how Orthodoxy comes close to the Catholic Church in missions, charity and the universality of being able to adapt to any culture in anytime. While byzantium was beautiful the church is simply not one size fits all as far as liturgy goes. Does Chrysostom’s DL blow away the Novus Ordo Mass as done in most parishes? Yes. But the Mekites do it just as well. Plus, the Catholic Church has several liturgical traditions which is fitting for the universal church.

Btw, I also fell in love with a Greek girl.

 

[Triciacat]

The major think that has always hindered me from going Orthodox is the overwhelmingly ethnic identity of the different churches with orthodoxy. It appears, in my opinion, to lack the universality of the Catholic Church. This may be my own misunderstanding, though.

What, exactly, do you mean by “ethnic?” Someone that has roots in a country other than the USA? I will assume, for the purposes of this post, that you are referring to the language used in the services of a individual Orthodox church, which is a reflection of the jurisdiction under which it falls. Consider that Orthodoxy didn’t have it’s origins in North America, so, naturally, the language of the people was used, eg. Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. so that they could understand. A common liturgical language developed around the eighth century, called Slavonic, was, and still is, occasionally, used in the Slavic Orthodox Churches. When immigrants came to North America, they brought their church, and their language, with them. Many Orthodox churches have services in English as well, or exclusively, especially those under the OCA. Here, you will find people of all “ethnicities.” Most importantly, the universality of Orthodoxy can be found in it’s doctrine, which is the same no matter where you attend.

There’s “ethnic” Catholic churches as well, so I don’t quite understand the argument.

 

[Madaglan]

“No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” (Luke 11:33)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

Your misapplication of this verse to justify keeping what is a supposedly the One, True Church a hidden little ethnic club was all too typical of my experience among the Orthodox, particulalry the cradle Orthodox. I remember one woman basically telling me that Orthodoxy is too precious to share and that it should be hard to find. Which of course is the antithesis of the Gospel. This lack of universality is a screaming testimonial that Orthodoxy does not bear an essentially mark of being exclusively the one, true church.

Catholic churches operated the same way when first built in the U.S.: e.g. St. Stanislaus (Polish parish), St. Patrick (Irish parish), St. Anthony of Padua (Italian parish), St. Boniface (German parish), St. Elizabeth (Hungarian parish), etc. Even today, there are Catholic (and Protestant) churches that still show these roots. There is nothing wrong with ethnicity. People of similar ethnicity often have similar culture, and similar ways of expressing themselves. The problem is not with ethnicity, but exclusion on that basis. No Catholic has any real objection to 95+% of the Roman Popes, supreme bishops of the Universal Church, being Italian.

So you heard something off from an Orthodox lady.
I once heard a Catholic lady say “We have a lot to learn from the Protestants” (in the context of worship). I thought that was a little off, but I certainly couldn’t say she was a model of the Catholic attitude. It was her personal opinion, with which I disagreed.

Many Orthodox Churches hold events open to the public (Greek festivals, Slavic festivals, open house, miraculous icons, etc.) At these events, the priest gives tours of the church, explaining to the group the Orthodox Faith. A few weeks ago I went to a Greek church during a festival. Inside the nave, traditional Mennonites were walking around, gazing at the iconography. I was told that several Mennonites in the area had converted to Orthodoxy.

My priest actively lectures at the local college on the Orthodox interpretation of Scripture. And if people are near completely unaware of Orthodoxy, they cannot help but wonder about those onion-domed structures and the shaggy, black-robed fellows who walk in and out of them–not to mention the hint of frankincense on the air. The light is there for all to see. People just have to come in to see it.

The Orthodox Churches in the U.S. are active with OCMC, which sends missionary priests to all over the world, including several places in Africa that hitherto have not known Orthodoxy.

 

[Madaglan]

But there is also the organizational and local fruit. I just don’t see how Orthodoxy comes close to the Catholic Church in missions, charity and the universality of being able to adapt to any culture in anytime. While byzantium was beautiful the church is simply not one size fits all as far as liturgy goes. Does Chrysostom’s DL blow away the Novus Ordo Mass as done in most parishes? Yes. But the Mekites do it just as well. Plus, the Catholic Church has several liturgical traditions which is fitting for the universal church.

Btw, I also fell in love with a Greek girl.

Orthodoxy seems to fit well with many non-European cultures. My last Orthodox priest went on a mission to Ghana. A Catholic priest there, with whom he came into contact, told him it was a good thing the Orthodox came after the Catholics, because the native traditions were quite well-suited to Orthodoxy.

The Catholic Church has been able to adapt to some areas successively, but in other areas not so successfully.

If anybody has the benefit of flexibility with ritual suited to the local population, it is the Independent churches of Africa, India and other “3rd-world” countries. The Christian churches in these countries are booming, and in many cases the churches do not follow European liturgical models, either Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

Btw, this video rocks! : youtube.com/watch?v=YPvcFQ1Yb4k