Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word

[samcarter14]

Wait, I thought the Orthodox were the more ethnic ones…

Well, nobody at our church has asked us if we’re Hungarian, so I’m assuming it’s not an issue. At the Orthodox church we attended, my husband was asked about every other week if he was Greek, and when he would say “no”, the person would kind of wander off. Also, if you didn’t attend the local Greek festival, you were considered “odd”.

 

[Triciacat]

Orthodoxy seems to fit well with many non-European cultures. My last Orthodox priest went on a mission to Ghana. A Catholic priest there, with whom he came into contact, told him it was a good thing the Orthodox came after the Catholics, because the native traditions were quite well-suited to Orthodoxy.

The Catholic Church has been able to adapt to some areas successively, but in other areas not so successfully.

If anybody has the benefit of flexibility with ritual suited to the local population, it is the Independent churches of Africa, India and other “3rd-world” countries. The Christian churches in these countries are booming, and in many cases the churches do not follow European liturgical models, either Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox.

Btw, this video rocks! : youtube.com/watch?v=YPvcFQ1Yb4k

Wow! What a fabulous video! I would almost guess they are chanting the Beatitutes at the beginning, in the “Worship” section!?

 

[Madaglan]

Well, nobody at our church has asked us if we’re Hungarian, so I’m assuming it’s not an issue. At the Orthodox church we attended, my husband was asked about every other week if he was Greek, and when he would say “no”, the person would kind of wander off. Also, if you didn’t attend the local Greek festival, you were considered “odd”.

Well, at least they recognized your presence!

In my experience of attending Latin Catholic churches, the only people who spoke to you were people who knew you already, and if I attempted to speak with someone in the narthex after Mass (the few minutes open for fellowship) I felt as though I was butting into a clique. That was my experience at least.

The Ruthenians never asked me about my ethnicity; but I can’t think of any Orthodox doing so either, at least in the exclusive sense.

I’ve felt most welcome in Orthodox churches. My first time in an Orthodox Church, the babushka’s came over to my friend and I, affectionately put their hands on our shoulders, and told us how thankful they were that we had come. We each received like 3-4 pieces of antidoron that day!

Sadly there are some Greeks and others who think that way. My Orthodox priest (OCA and Polish) once went to the local Greek church. He wore a black cassock and large metal pectoral cross, and yet he was asked:

Parishoner: Are you Greek?
Priest: No.
Parishoner: Are you Orthodox?
Priest: What do you think I’m wearing this for!!! I’m a priest!!!

 

[eichenb2]

“What, exactly, do you mean by “ethnic?” Someone that has roots in a country other than the USA? I will assume, for the purposes of this post, that you are referring to the language used in the services of a individual Orthodox church, which is a reflection of the jurisdiction under which it falls. Consider that Orthodoxy didn’t have it’s origins in North America, so, naturally, the language of the people was used, eg. Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. so that they could understand.”

Specifically, it seems to me (and I may be mistaken) that the Orthodox bodies have evolved (or devolved) into regional/ethnic bodies. This mentality was transported to America. So, yes, this is, basically, what I am talking about. One can talk about Orthodoxy being universal, but that does not help much when you sitting alone at church functions, since most people just say hello and walk away. I, personally, would prefer to attend church with people who have a similar cultural reference. Heck, we may even become friends. . BTW, the Roman Catholic didn’t have its origin here, either.

“There’s “ethnic” Catholic churches as well, so I don’t quite understand the argument.”

Yes, but my African-American wife and bi-racial will not be looked at as if they have too heads. We experienced this in one Orthodox congregation. I will not mention which. The Roman Catholic Church has seen itself as Universal from day one, so to speak. Why don’t the Eastern Orthodox churches just recognize the Pope as the Head of the Universal Church and lets get on with it.

 

[wynd]

Why don’t the Eastern Orthodox churches just recognize the Pope as the Head of the Universal Church and lets get on with it.

I’m sure you know it’s not quite that simple.

 

[Triciacat]

Specifically, it seems to me (and I may be mistaken) that the Orthodox bodies have evolved (or devolved) into regional/ethnic bodies. This mentality was transported to America. So, yes, this is, basically, what I am talking about. One can talk about Orthodoxy being universal, but that does not help much when you sitting alone at church functions, since most people just say hello and walk away. I, personally, would prefer to attend church with people who have a similar cultural reference. Heck, we may even become friends. . BTW, the Roman Catholic didn’t have its origin here, either.

Yes, but my African-American wife and bi-racial will not be looked at as if they have too heads. We experienced this in one Orthodox congregation. I will not mention which. The Roman Catholic Church has seen itself as Universal from day one, so to speak. Why don’t the Eastern Orthodox churches just recognize the Pope as the Head of the Universal Church and lets get on with it.

I think some people find the ethnic aspect as you describe to be somewhat comforting, somewhere where they are among others of their own culture. I have, as a visitor to churches of other denominations, experienced the same thing you did, so I understand what you mean regarding the feeling of isolation. All churches should make an effort to greet newcomers and assist them during their visit. Yes, I realize the Roman Catholic church didn’t originate in North America, but it still uses Latin!?

My Orthodox church has a wide variety of ethnicities, including African, and services are in English. We have a greeter, too. Our priest always sits with the visitors during fellowship afterwards. By the way, we don’t refer to newcomers as “visitors,” they are “guests” more than welcome in God’s House. I’m sorry you had a bad experience.

 

[Alethiaphile]

Originally Posted by Alethiaphile
Yes, I have. The liturgy there can be beautiful as well, but in my experience it’s not backed up by doctrine. It’s a beautiful liturgy, sitting in isolation from everything else. I haven’t felt that I was getting Orthodoxy in its fullness there.

blanket statment. Explain.

Quite simple. The theology behind the liturgy is deemphasized. The sermons are light on substantive theology. There are no catechetical classes. As I have siad before, the DLs are held at a Latin church, and the priest doubles as the pastor of the Latin community. Like all Catholic parish priests, he is overworked.

 

[chrisb]

Continuity of what? Of the Syriac tradition of Antioch which was dismantled in Eastern Orthodoxy and replaced with the Constantinopolitan tradition? Of a Liturgy which, while not having been altered much in the past couple centuries has undergone major modifications since Apostolic times (I highly recommend the works of the Eastern Orthodox Fr. Schmemann regarding this subject)? Of theology which has gone from Patristic mysticism, to Palamite, to Scholastic, and back again several times? Of moral theology which has gone from being completely anti-contraception to pro-contraception in a few decades?

What continuity are you speaking of, exactly? This seems to be a classic case of blinders, IMO.

Incidentally, I’m not bringing these things up to attack Eastern Orthodoxy; these same changes have occurred throughout the Catholic Communion as well, and that’s exactly my point. If there is continuity to be found in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is also certainly to be found in Catholicism.

Peace and God bless!

Hi Ghosty,

I see a continuity in the Dogmatic, Moral and Mystical Theology in the Orthodox Church which I honestly don’t see present in the modern American Catholic Church.

My parish experience is one that is shockingly devoid of any sense of Dogmatic, Moral or Mystical Theology in the normal life of the Church.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Quite simple. The theology behind the liturgy is deemphasized. The sermons are light on substantive theology. There are no catechetical classes.

How is theology de-emphaized through liturgy? Please give accurate examples.

What are catechetical classes?

 

[Aramis]

What are catechetical classes?

Classes that teach the faith. “Sunday School”…

 

[samcarter14]

Well, at least they recognized your presence!

In my experience of attending Latin Catholic churches, the only people who spoke to you were people who knew you already, and if I attempted to speak with someone in the narthex after Mass (the few minutes open for fellowship) I felt as though I was butting into a clique. That was my experience at least.

The Ruthenians never asked me about my ethnicity; but I can’t think of any Orthodox doing so either, at least in the exclusive sense.

I’ve felt most welcome in Orthodox churches. My first time in an Orthodox Church, the babushka’s came over to my friend and I, affectionately put their hands on our shoulders, and told us how thankful they were that we had come. We each received like 3-4 pieces of antidoron that day!

Sadly there are some Greeks and others who think that way. My Orthodox priest (OCA and Polish) once went to the local Greek church. He wore a black cassock and large metal pectoral cross, and yet he was asked:

Parishoner: Are you Greek?
Priest: No.
Parishoner: Are you Orthodox?
Priest: What do you think I’m wearing this for!!! I’m a priest!!!

People are people everywhere. My experiences in Roman Catholic churches have been varied. Depending on the parish, we were either welcomed warmly or simply allowed to attend without being talked to—usually my husband’s preference, as he is an introvert and doesn’t like hugging and lots of effusiveness. Even the common practice of holding hands during the Our Father (in some RC parishes) makes him uncomfortable. Our current Byzantine parish is just the right balance.

 

[samcarter14]

Originally Posted by Alethiaphile
Yes, I have. The liturgy there can be beautiful as well, but in my experience it’s not backed up by doctrine. It’s a beautiful liturgy, sitting in isolation from everything else. I haven’t felt that I was getting Orthodoxy in its fullness there.

Quite simple. The theology behind the liturgy is deemphasized. The sermons are light on substantive theology. There are no catechetical classes. As I have siad before, the DLs are held at a Latin church, and the priest doubles as the pastor of the Latin community. Like all Catholic parish priests, he is overworked.

That is a problem with that particular parish, not the Church or the faith itself. While I admire bi-ritual priests I think it’s a bit unfair on them to go back and forth between like that. I wonder if you could find an Eastern Catholic parish or community near you which had a priest devoted to that ritual alone, whether you would find it different. And I know that while we do not have catechetical classes scheduled, my priest would be happy to instruct any seeker on the faith if so asked.

 

[mardukm]

Well, in my observation there is more unity of faith among the Orthodox, divided as they are jurisidictionally, than there is among Catholics. You compare traditionalist Catholics with typical American suburban Catholics, and their faiths are pretty different. Eastern Catholics have a different theology also.

Yes, there are different theologies within Catholicism - Eastern, Oriental (Chalcedonian, non-Chalcedonian, ACOE), Latin (Dominican, Franciscan, Thomists, etc.). Yet we all hold the same FAITH. Theology is MAN’S understanding of the divine, plain and simple. Theology is not meant to divide. Within the Catholic Church, and ONLY within the Catholic Church, there is unity because we can look beyond the different expressions of our theologies and see therein the Divine undercurrent which is the source of the life of all our different yet compatible theologies. We look beyond the words, and search for the real meaning to arrive at unity. This is the understanding I was raised with within Oriental Orthodoxy, and specifically within Coptic Orthodoxy. It was by no means a stretch of the imagination for me to become Catholic.

Outside of the Catholic Church, one sees disunity.

That said, as you are an Eastern, perhaps it is unfair of you to judge the Catholic Church using Eastern Orthodox standards. You complain about the difference between the official teachings of the Church and the faith of some of the laity. This is understandable from an Eastern viewpoint, as your tradition places much stress on the role of the laity in preserving the faith, even (it seems) equal or above to the authority of its bishops. But the Catholic Church understands that the bishops have a UNIQUE and special role, divinely appointed, as preservers of the Faith. The bishops are the divinely-appointed guides of the faithful, not the other way around. So despite the differences you point out between the official teaching of the hierarchy, and the Faith of the some of the laity, please judge the Catholic Church based on the unity of Faith as reflected in its teachings, not on the wayward opinions and objections of some of the laity.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Ignatius]

No, I have not. Are you saying that the Mass is similar to Orthodox church Mass?

The Eastern Catholic Churches celebrate variously the Liturgy of St. James, the Liturgy of St. John Chrisomom, etc. which are exactly the same Liturgies as the Orthodox Liturgy.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Classes that teach the faith. “Sunday School”…

Ok. So our friend is incorrect in his assertion that we don’t have these.

 

[GladCatholic]

Well, nobody at our church has asked us if we’re Hungarian, so I’m assuming it’s not an issue. At the Orthodox church we attended, my husband was asked about every other week if he was Greek, and when he would say “no”, the person would kind of wander off. Also, if you didn’t attend the local Greek festival, you were considered “odd”.

I had gone to Divine Liturgy on this beautiful spring day at a Greek Orthodox Church. An old gentleman was passing me in the parking lot and stopped, looked up and said something in Greek and made a pleasing gesture (no other way to describe it) with his hands. I KNOW he was saying something about the weather and/or the sky, but I said, “I don’t speak Greek” in a pleasant manner with a smile. He said, “Blech (you know the sound I’m describing), no Greek” flicked his hand at me, made a yucky face and walked away. Honestly, I had to laugh because his disdain was made so apparent even through the language barrier.

 

[Madaglan]

Yes, there are different theologies within Catholicism - Eastern, Oriental (Chalcedonian, non-Chalcedonian, ACOE), Latin (Dominican, Franciscan, Thomists, etc.). Yet we all hold the same FAITH. Theology is MAN’S understanding of the divine, plain and simple. Theology is not meant to divide. Within the Catholic Church, and ONLY within the Catholic Church, there is unity because we can look beyond the different expressions of our theologies and see therein the Divine undercurrent which is the source of the life of all our different yet compatible theologies. We look beyond the words, and search for the real meaning to arrive at unity. This is the understanding I was raised with within Oriental Orthodoxy, and specifically within Coptic Orthodoxy. It was by no means a stretch of the imagination for me to become Catholic.

So, where’s room for the Protestants and their theology? Sure, most don’t have bishops, have a different understanding of Tradition, Scripture, Apostolic Succession, the Church and authority. They don’t fulfill the lowest common denominator of Latin theology and that of “sister churches,”, but why hold it against them just because Latin and Eastern theologies of the Church are different than their theologies? According to their theology, Ecumenical Councils can and have erred on matters of faith. Why impose a Latin understanding of an Ecumenical Council (e.g. Trent) on them when their own theology tells them that Ecumenical Councils are not infallible?

Outside of the Catholic Church, one sees disunity.

One sees disunity if one looks for it, either outside or inside the Catholic Church.

That said, as you are an Eastern, perhaps it is unfair of you to judge the Catholic Church using Eastern Orthodox standards. You complain about the difference between the official teachings of the Church and the faith of some of the laity. This is understandable from an Eastern viewpoint, as your tradition places much stress on the role of the laity in preserving the faith, even (it seems) equal or above to the authority of its bishops. But the Catholic Church understands that the bishops have a UNIQUE and special role, divinely appointed, as preservers of the Faith. The bishops are the divinely-appointed guides of the faithful, not the other way around. So despite the differences you point out between the official teaching of the hierarchy, and the Faith of the some of the laity, please judge the Catholic Church based on the unity of Faith as reflected in its teachings, not on the wayward opinions and objections of some of the laity.
Blessings,
Marduk

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

The responsibility to hold on to and pass on the Faith is held by all in the Church. Bishops are appointed a specific role, but the laity by no means should be passive recipients of the preserves of faith handed to them by the bishops. .

 

[bobzills]

You complain about the difference between the official teachings of the Church and the faith of some of the laity.

What is the official teaching of the RCC on the following issues:

1. Should the filioque be said in the creed at Mass or not?
2. Does limbo exist or not? Is it a place in hell or not?
3. Are the pains of purgatory similar to those of hell?
4. Is slavery against the natural law or not?
5. Should there be capital punishment or not?
6. Is the Old Law salvific for the Jews or not?
7. Was it a mortal sin to vote for Obama or not?
8. Is there salvation inside the E. Orthodox Church, and if not should Catholics then try to convert an E. O. to Catholicism?
   Everyone has a different opinion on what the teaching of the Church is on these issues, and some say that there is no official teaching, so that would illustrate disunity in Catholic belief, wouldn’t it?

 

[Madaglan]

What is the official teaching of the RCC on the following issues:

1. Should the filioque be said in the creed at Mass or not?
2. Does limbo exist or not? Is it a place in hell or not?
3. Are the pains of purgatory similar to those of hell?
4. Is slavery against the natural law or not?
5. Should there be capital punishment or not?
6. Is the Old Law salvific for the Jews or not?
   6b. Should Catholics evangelize amongst Jewish communities?
7. Was it a mortal sin to vote for Obama or not?
8. Is there salvation inside the E. Orthodox Church, and if not should Catholics then try to convert an E. O. to Catholicism?
   Everyone has a different opinion on what the teaching of the Church is on these issues, and some say that there is no official teaching, so that would illustrate disunity in Catholic belief, wouldn’t it?

 

[Aramis]

What is the official teaching of the RCC on the following issues:

1. Should the filioque be said in the creed at Mass or not?
2. Does limbo exist or not? Is it a place in hell or not?
3. Are the pains of purgatory similar to those of hell?
4. Is slavery against the natural law or not?
5. Should there be capital punishment or not?
6. Is the Old Law salvific for the Jews or not?
7. Was it a mortal sin to vote for Obama or not?
8. Is there salvation inside the E. Orthodox Church, and if not should Catholics then try to convert an E. O. to Catholicism?
   Everyone has a different opinion on what the teaching of the Church is on these issues, and some say that there is no official teaching, so that would illustrate disunity in Catholic belief, wouldn’t it?

1: In the Roman Church, yes, but not needed in the eastern churches.
2: No limbo. That definition was formally rejected only recently, but was never formally accepted prior, either.
3: Not dogmatic. In the east and west you’ll get a variety of answers. All we know for sure is that it does exist and somehow it purifies our souls.
4: Indenture isn’t against natural law. Chattel is.
5: Only when confinement is not a viable option
6: Not as such, but neither is it condemnatory; they get to wait until the second coming to find out.If they choose, they may embrace the new covenant and be sure. After all, Jesus says “not one jot nor one tidle of the old law shall pass away.”
7: answers vary, since the church doesn’t specifically endorse nor anathematize voting for specific candidates, and being a mortal sin requires having knowingly violated the teachings.
8: Yes, there is. We still should seek to reunify them with the Petrine Office.