Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word

[Aramis]

Aren’t the groups you mentioned schismatic? If so, what use is one schism for another?

Blessings,
Marduk

Only the SSPX are schismatic. Discussion of them, however, is a no-no outside the TC subforum.

ICRS and FSSP are fully obedient to Rome and exist under papal indults.

 

[mardukm]

Bottom line: If you’re looking for the sublime, look no further than the traditional Catholic Faith.

Which includes the Eastern Catholic Churches, too.

 

[theweeper]

The mainstream of the Catholic Church, by embracing the Novus Ordo Mass and the logical consequences thereunto pertaining, has indeed become more Protestant in appearance. However, Catholics who practice traditional Catholicism have lost nothing of the sublime and, I would encourage you to learn about the traditional Catholic Faith before embracing the Eastern Schism.

i am a latin catholic and recently i visited a eastern catholic church…there were no easterns there. it was full of protestant converts. what’s up with that? it seems that eastern catholicism (or some of those other societies previously mentioned) is the way to go for very conservative converts. i have to admit i have a liking for both for i see myself as a kind of extreme conservative. but if the mass or the liturgy or whatever you call it is real and valid (as our Church says it is) then you cannot lessen the sublime which is found therein. Brothers we share in One Bread, this is the most sublime of all. lets not forget that.
at any rate, it seems common to see anti-latinism in the eastern catholics i’ve met or even read on this forum. is that something others have notice or is it just me?

 

[theweeper]

also another question…
someone mentioned that eastern catholics feel marginalized or looked down upon for there “easternisms”
well i dont doubt that but it hasnt been my experience. as far as i can tell very few ppl know about eastern catholics or their ways…ocasionally someone might say “in the eastern church they…” and there might be some ewe and awe as if all the “sublime” stuff comes from the east.

 

[Melchior]

The mainstream of the Catholic Church, by embracing the Novus Ordo Mass and the logical consequences thereunto pertaining, has indeed become more Protestant in appearance. However, Catholics who practice traditional Catholicism have lost nothing of the sublime and, I would encourage you to learn about the traditional Catholic Faith before embracing the Eastern Schism.

For more information, I recommend visiting the websites of the following priestly societies:

*Priestly Society of St. Pius X: fsspx.org/eng/index.html
*Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter: fssp.org
*Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest: icrsp.org

I would also investigate FishEaters’ apologetics site (fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html)).

Yours in Christ the King,

G.E.A. Gilbert

Sigh. Fisheaters looks more like Jew-Eaters. What’s with ultra-Traditionalists and obsessing over Jews? Please don’t answer, it was rhetorical.

 

[Melchior]

i am a latin catholic and recently i visited a eastern catholic church…there were no easterns there. it was full of protestant converts. what’s up with that? it seems that eastern catholicism (or some of those other societies previously mentioned) is the way to go for very conservative converts. i have to admit i have a liking for both for i see myself as a kind of extreme conservative. but if the mass or the liturgy or whatever you call it is real and valid (as our Church says it is) then you cannot lessen the sublime which is found therein. Brothers we share in One Bread, this is the most sublime of all. lets not forget that.
at any rate, it seems common to see anti-latinism in the eastern catholics i’ve met or even read on this forum. is that something others have notice or is it just me?

I think converts tend to appreciate the beauty of ancient liturgy more than many cradle Catholics. Converts are the health of the church.

I hear you on the one bread. But it can be dissonant to have something so sublime wrapped in an unworthy garment. My wife, for example grew up with the reverent, beautiful Orthodox liturgy and to go to most Novus Ordo masses in our particular Archdiocese is to hear horribly trite, man-centered “hymns” that sound like 1970’s folk music. It can be very distracting and it is certainly one big reason most Catholics don’t sing in church. It is really akin to playing birthday songs at at a wedding. So naturally those who come from a Catholic tradition where the music is befitting of the event do find non-sacred sounding music to be a negative. There is just no good reason for it. Gregorian chant is supposed to be the norm. It is not hard to switch to traditional hymns at the very least.

 

[jimmy]

Aren’t the groups you mentioned schismatic? If so, what use is one schism for another?

Blessings,
Marduk

The SSPX is schismatic. The other two aren’t. And I agree with you. If you are going to reject the Church as it is in Rome you might as well become Orthodox.

 

[jimmy]

I think converts tend to appreciate the beauty of ancient liturgy more than many cradle Catholics. Converts are the health of the church.

I hear you on the one bread. But it can be dissonant to have something so sublime wrapped in an unworthy garment. My wife, for example grew up with the reverent, beautiful Orthodox liturgy and to go to most Novus Ordo masses in our particular Archdiocese is to hear horribly trite, man-centered “hymns” that sound like 1970’s folk music. It can be very distracting and it is certainly one big reason most Catholics don’t sing in church. It is really akin to playing birthday songs at at a wedding. So naturally those who come from a Catholic tradition where the music is befitting of the event do find non-sacred sounding music to be a negative. There is just no good reason for it. Gregorian chant is supposed to be the norm. It is not hard to switch to traditional hymns at the very least.

The problem is that in the west there is a tendance to view things as either valid or invalid. What doesn’t determine validity has become superfluous. So in the liturgy all that really matters is the institution narrative. Everything else can be fooled around with or removed. The east has a different perspective. The whole anaphora or liturgy is consecratory. Consequently you can’t fool with it.

Pope Benedict discusses this breifly in his book The Nature and Mission of Theology.

 

[Melchior]

The problem is that in the west there is a tendance to view things as either valid or invalid. What doesn’t determine validity has become superfluous. So in the liturgy all that really matters is the institution narrative. Everything else can be fooled around with or removed. The east has a different perspective. The whole anaphora or liturgy is consecratory. Consequently you can’t fool with it.

Pope Benedict discusses this breifly in his book The Nature and Mission of Theology.

That’s a very good point, Jimmy. I firmly believe that when the boomer generation of priests retire and/or die off so will guitar masses and Hagin/Haas (Peter Paul and Mary) music.

 

[theweeper]

what sounds folky to some may sound sacred to others. isnt art always just this way. a matter of personal taste? surely music as an art is to convey a message but the same work of art conveys different messages to different ppl.

 

[Melchior]

what sounds folky to some may sound sacred to others. isnt art always just this way. a matter of personal taste? surely music as an art is to convey a message but the same work of art conveys different messages to different ppl.

Respectfully, I do not buy the idea that art is subjective. Music has genres and styles. Great music is great music but it all has it’s own proper context. I am certain you would not say the same about someone replacing the wedding march, with the bride walking down the aisle with twinkle twinkle little start. Why? Because we objecively, and intuitively know the difference. All music has it’s context. Classical music is lofty and beautiful, but like folk music it is not appropriate for the mass. The parameters of appropriate worship music are well defined.

 

[jimmy]

I have to agree with Melchior. Secular society has gotten into the habit of saying that beauty is subjective and ‘in the eyes of the beholder’ but this amounts to the relativism that says there is no truth. A lot of what passes for art today might be considered beautiful by some but it is disgusting. God’s creation is a sacrament through which we see Him. That said, all things that God has created have some inherent beauty. Regarding art or what ever other creation of man it is beautiful in as much as it reflects the beauty of God.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I’m still waiting for an answer:

Perhaps you can qualify this. What about the Eastern Orthodox expression of the Faith do you find sublime, and how is that sublimity absent in the Latin Church?

 

[bobzills]

I’m still waiting for an answer:

Perhaps you can qualify this. What about the Eastern Orthodox expression of the Faith do you find sublime, and how is that sublimity absent in the Latin Church?

Some people have mentioned the striking difference in the reverence of the Eastern liturgy, compared to what is often seen in the West.

 

[jam070406]

Some people have mentioned the striking difference in the reverence of the Eastern liturgy, compared to what is often seen in the West.

Some have said they’ve seen the same reverence in the West. And?

 

[bobzills]

Some have said they’ve seen the same reverence in the West. And?

A big difference, because the East does not have the clown Mass, the monkey Mass, the Halloween Mass, the mariachi band Mass, the dancing girl ballerina Mass, the folk Mass, etc.

 

[Melchior]

A big difference, because the East does not have the clown Mass, the monkey Mass, the Halloween Mass, the mariachi band Mass, the dancing girl ballerina Mass, the folk Mass, etc.

Okay, but big picture - this is a tiny and brief abberation in the church’s 2,000 year history. That in the late 20th century in a declining western world some rebellious men, one generation in total, got to be priests and tiny minority of churches violate liturgical norms is not really an argument against true expression of the ancient liturgy. It is an argument against the lousy vetting process of seminarians in the 1960’s and 1970’s. The Orthodox have had similar problems but different manifestations of that rebllion. In the my archdiocese, the oldest in the country I believe, and not particularly awesome litugically, you would never see a clown mass, mariachi mass or ballerina mass. ****** folk hymns? True. But again that will be history soon as well.

 

[jam070406]

A big difference, because the East does not have the clown Mass, the monkey Mass, the Halloween Mass, the mariachi band Mass, the dancing girl ballerina Mass, the folk Mass, etc.

Yep, thanks to liberals. There were even liberals that went against the Bishops in this last election, and voted for Obama. There was an Orthodox poster trying to justify voting for Obama awhile back. So I guess the grass isn’t always greener eh?

Btw, the East doesn’t call their liturgy Mass,
they call it Divine Liturgy.

 

[jam070406]

Okay, but big picture - this is a tiny and brief abberation in the church’s 2,000 year history. That in the late 20th century in a declining western world some rebellious men, one generation in total, got to be priests and tiny minority of churches violate liturgical norms is not really an argument against true expression of the ancient liturgy. It is an argument against the lousy vetting process of seminarians in the 1960’s and 1970’s. The Orthodox have had similar problems but different manifestations of that rebllion. In the my archdiocese, the oldest in the country I believe, and not particularly awesome litugically, you would never see a clown mass, mariachi mass or ballerina mass. ****** folk hymns? True. But again that will be history soon as well.

Yep, and there are people like bobzills that will take any opportunity to bash the Church. Funny, his profile says Catholic

 

[bobzills]

Yep, and there are people like bobzills that will take any opportunity to bash the Church. Funny, his profile says Catholic

Just a second. What exactly did you mean by this question anyway?

Some have said they’ve seen the same reverence in the West. And?

You ask a question, and I try to answer it fairly and correctly and then you decide to launch a personal attack against me.
The original question was as follows:
Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word
Why a person may be drawn to Orthodoxy really has nothing to do with me. I thought that when such a question is asked, the proper attitude to take is to try to give an honest and sincere answer and not to indulge in outrageous personal attacks on someone who is trying to understand as to why someone would be attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy. It has been questioned as to what is sublime in Orthodoxy as contrasted with Roman Catholicism. My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is very respectful and spiritually rewarding.
Is this true of all Roman Catholic Masses? For example, would it be true of the following Roman Catholic Mass said by the Roman Catholic Bishop Remi de Roo?
www.ctanorcal.org/WCCTA2008.wmv