Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word

[mardukm]

Just a second. What exactly did you mean by this question anyway?

I think it means your arguments are dishonest. I would second the notion.

My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is very respectful and spiritually rewarding.
Is this true of all Roman Catholic Masses? For example, would it be true of the following Roman Catholic Mass said by the Roman Catholic Bishop Remi de Roo?
www.ctanorcal.org/WCCTA2008.wmv

So basically, you are saying that because you have managed to p(name removed by moderator)oint a particular instance (or instances), which probably comprises less than .0001 percent of all Catholic liturgical celebrations, this is a good enough reason for a certain Catholic to judge the Catholic Church AS A WHOLE, That’s pretty dishonest rhetoric.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Madaglan]

Just a second. What exactly did you mean by this question anyway?

You ask a question, and I try to answer it fairly and correctly and then you decide to launch a personal attack against me.
The original question was as follows:
Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word
Why a person may be drawn to Orthodoxy really has nothing to do with me. I thought that when such a question is asked, the proper attitude to take is to try to give an honest and sincere answer and not to indulge in outrageous personal attacks on someone who is trying to understand as to why someone would be attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy. It has been questioned as to what is sublime in Orthodoxy as contrasted with Roman Catholicism. My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is very respectful and spiritually rewarding.
Is this true of all Roman Catholic Masses? For example, would it be true of the following Roman Catholic Mass said by the Roman Catholic Bishop Remi de Roo?
www.ctanorcal.org/WCCTA2008.wmv

Ah! The Call to Action Mass. A notch above the Barney Blessing Mass of several years ago. A bit extreme, and definitely a problem, but not quite the norm, thankfully.

 

[jam070406]

Just a second. What exactly did you mean by this question anyway?

You ask a question, and I try to answer it fairly and correctly and then you decide to launch a personal attack against me.
The original question was as follows:
Why I am drawn to Orthodoxy in one word
Why a person may be drawn to Orthodoxy really has nothing to do with me. I thought that when such a question is asked, the proper attitude to take is to try to give an honest and sincere answer and not to indulge in outrageous personal attacks on someone who is trying to understand as to why someone would be attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy. It has been questioned as to what is sublime in Orthodoxy as contrasted with Roman Catholicism. My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is very respectful and spiritually rewarding.
Is this true of all Roman Catholic Masses? For example, would it be true of the following Roman Catholic Mass said by the Roman Catholic Bishop Remi de Roo?
www.ctanorcal.org/WCCTA2008.wmv

Well at least we can count on bobzills to point out all the flawed human failings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps you find some sort of pleasure in trying to drive people away from the Church. It becomes irritating and frustrating to those of us trying to defend the Church or help stop people from leaving it. We get this sort of rheotric from non-catholics and now unfortunatley some Catholics such as yourself. (if indeed you are Catholic)

We have a case of someone wanting to leave the Church. People try to bring up the fact that sublime elements do exist in Catholicism also, in an attempt to help that person and stop them from leaving. And then along comes bobzills with clown masses and negative comments about the Church. Nice work bob. Are purposely trying to misrepresent the whole of the Church with a few bizarre fringe examples or are you just that clueless?

 

[bobzills]

We have a case of someone wanting to leave the Church.

And my personal opinion is that you want to close your eyes as to why a Catholic may be drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy, and avoid the issue by launching a personal slanderous attack against me.

 

[bobzills]

I think it means your arguments are dishonest. I would second the notion.

The question is why a Catholic may be drawn to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am pointing out that there are Catholics who do not appreciate some of the novelties in the Mass seen since Vatican II.
Why is it dishonest tto point out this fact?

 

[jam070406]

And my personal opinion is that you want to close your eyes as to why a Catholic may be drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy, and avoid the issue by launching a personal slanderous attack against me.

Your opinion is your opinion.
Myself, and others, are not closing our eyes to anything. We’ve been trying to point out that there IS an element of sublime in the West. YOU, mention clown masses. As others have pointed out, clown masses and the like, are a very very small dissident,fringe, freakish percentage, NOT the norm. Yet you try and present it like it is. why? I’ve NEVER seen a clown mass or any of the other freak things you’ve mentioned anywhere near my area, EVER. Maybe you hang out in the most liberal of parishes and are accustomed to it. I don’t know.
Saying that I’m launching a personal, slanderous attack on you is alittle overly dramatic btw. I’m trying to figure out why you bash the Church and seem to want to push people out of it. Please feel free to explain yourself. I’m alittle tired of your attacks on the Church. And I can see others are irritated by your negative attitude as well.

 

[mardukm]

The question is why a Catholic may be drawn to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am pointing out that there are Catholics who do not appreciate some of the novelties in the Mass seen since Vatican II.
Why is it dishonest tto point out this fact?

I’ll admit that the way you pose the matter here, I would not say it is dishonest.

Now, let me ask you. Is it dishonest to use the silly goings on in less than .0001 percent of all Catholic liturgical celebrations in the world to condemn the Catholic Church AS A WHOLE?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bobzills]

Myself, and others, are not closing our eyes to anything. We’ve been trying to point out that there IS an element of sublime in the West.

Is that why Catholics convert to E. Orthodoxy? It doesn’t seem like a very good reason to convert from Catholicism.

 

[bobzills]

INow, let me ask you. Is it dishonest to use the silly goings on in less than .0001 percent of all Catholic liturgical celebrations in the world to condemn the Catholic Church AS A WHOLE?

I am interested in your data and as to how you arrive at the exact numerical value of less than .0001 percent.

 

[Formosus]

Arguing that the Orthodox is “more sublime” is , in my opinion, a pretty poor reason unless one can qualify this to not include externals like Liturgy. Eastern Catholic liturgies can be just as sublime and Latin liturgies can be sublime as well in their own latin way. Really the only reason to become Orthodox (which admittedly this is a pretty big reason) is if one finds that the Doctrines of the Roman Church are hetrodox in light of those of the Church of the first millennium. Using Liturgy introduces a some what subjective argument into the mix. For instance there are clown Masses in the west, and though there is no equivalent to that atrocity in eastern liturgy, there are some Eastern parishes that are nothing more then ethnic clubs where liturgy is neglected. Its not all peaches and cream on the other side of things. I went to an Armenian Orthodox parish once that had a horribly low attendance (despite a large building) and little or seemingly not interest of the faithful in what was going on. Would I say that is an accurate picture of Oriental Orthodoxy or the Armenian Orthodox church? No I wouldn’t. So would I say a clown Mass or one of Cardinal Mahoney’s youth Masses are examples of western Liturgy? Nope. So I would just tell the OP to look deeper then just the liturgies. I have read in a past post that his main experiance of the Eastern Catholic DL of St. John Chrysostom was at a Russian Catholic mission that is not representative of the Catholic Byzantine liturgics due to the nature of the mission. IF that is true, then he needs to explore more Eastern Catholic liturgies and read more books. Perhaps even visit an Eastern Catholic monastery.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Is that why Catholics convert to E. Orthodoxy? It doesn’t seem like a very good reason to convert from Catholicism.

So what do think of Catholics who stay Catholics? What are we masochists who don’t want sublimity?

And what do you think of Orthodox who convert to Catholicism, are they trying to find a sublimity that doesn’t exist in Eastern Orthodoxy?

 

[theweeper]

Respectfully, I do not buy the idea that art is subjective. Music has genres and styles. Great music is great music but it all has it’s own proper context. I am certain you would not say the same about someone replacing the wedding march, with the bride walking down the aisle with twinkle twinkle little start. Why? Because we objecively, and intuitively know the difference. All music has it’s context. Classical music is lofty and beautiful, but like folk music it is not appropriate for the mass. The parameters of appropriate worship music are well defined.

perhaps you are right. but then again i think maybe there was a time when someone might have heard classical music and thought it was entirely inappropriate for the Divine Liturgy. what is inappropriate today may be mainstream in 100 years or 1000 years. i dont think St. Peter and St Paul were jamming out to the organ or the guitar either. it seems these sorts of things evolve. dont you think. shouldnt we really just get rid of music all together and read/chat the psalms?

 

[Madaglan]

Arguing that the Orthodox is “more sublime” is , in my opinion, a pretty poor reason unless one can qualify this to not include externals like Liturgy. Eastern Catholic liturgies can be just as sublime and Latin liturgies can be sublime as well in their own latin way. Really the only reason to become Orthodox (which admittedly this is a pretty big reason) is if one finds that the Doctrines of the Roman Church are hetrodox in light of those of the Church of the first millennium. Using Liturgy introduces a some what subjective argument into the mix. For instance there are clown Masses in the west, and though there is no equivalent to that atrocity in eastern liturgy, there are some Eastern parishes that are nothing more then ethnic clubs where liturgy is neglected. Its not all peaches and cream on the other side of things. I went to an Armenian Orthodox parish once that had a horribly low attendance (despite a large building) and little or seemingly not interest of the faithful in what was going on. Would I say that is an accurate picture of Oriental Orthodoxy or the Armenian Orthodox church? No I wouldn’t. So would I say a clown Mass or one of Cardinal Mahoney’s youth Masses are examples of western Liturgy? Nope. So I would just tell the OP to look deeper then just the liturgies. I have read in a past post that his main experiance of the Eastern Catholic DL of St. John Chrysostom was at a Russian Catholic mission that is not representative of the Catholic Byzantine liturgics due to the nature of the mission. IF that is true, then he needs to explore more Eastern Catholic liturgies and read more books. Perhaps even visit an Eastern Catholic monastery.

Good post.

 

[Madaglan]

perhaps you are right. but then again i think maybe there was a time when someone might have heard classical music and thought it was entirely inappropriate for the Divine Liturgy. what is inappropriate today may be mainstream in 100 years or 1000 years. i dont think St. Peter and St Paul were jamming out to the organ or the guitar either. it seems these sorts of things evolve. dont you think. shouldnt we really just get rid of music all together and read/chat the psalms?

Death Metal Masses?



(no offense intended)

If only I live long enough to see it…

 

[mardukm]

Death Metal Masses?



(no offense intended)

If only I live long enough to see it…

I like Gothic Rock and old-school british punk myself.

 

[bobzills]

So what do think of Catholics who stay Catholics? What are we masochists who don’t want sublimity?

And what do you think of Orthodox who convert to Catholicism, are they trying to find a sublimity that doesn’t exist in Eastern Orthodoxy?

As I understand it, the topic for this thread concerns why a Catholic may be drawn to E. Orthodoxy?

 

[mardukm]

I am interested in your data and as to how you arrive at the exact numerical value of less than .0001 percent.

Just a good guess. I’ve been to a LOT of Catholic masses and divine liturgies - in the U.S., in Europe, in Egypt, in the Philippines, and in Australia, and I’ve never experienced a clown mass or a Barney mass.

Are you saying that clown masses are normal in the Catholic Church?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[bobzills]

Are you saying that clown masses are normal in the Catholic Church?

I’m saying that your statistic of .0001 percent is codswallop unless you have the data to back up the numerical value of .0001 percent as you have quoted.

 

[mardukm]

I’m saying that your statistic of .0001 percent is codswallop unless you have the data to back up the numerical value of .0001 percent as you have quoted.

I think the U.S accounts for about 6% of all Catholics in the world. And you’ve identified two or three instances of a clown mass? You are intelligent enough to do the math, aren’t you?

 

[Addai]

I’m saying that your statistic of .0001 percent is codswallop unless you have the data to back up the numerical value of .0001 percent as you have quoted.

His estimation is not BS. I did a thread on another board (mostly evangelical) on amusing but bad liturgical ideas.

theooze.com/forums/discussions.cfm?forumid=63&topicid=469409&kw=ideas

I could find only two RC puppet mass events listed on the web. This one (that took place in my area which most conservative Catholic bloggers seemed to talk about and link to) and another one mentioned on only 1 Blog which used small hand puppets.

If this was more common there should have been many more listings…